There's a shitload of threads on this forum that have nothing to do with either WW or the Forge, many of whom I was the OP or have otherwise participated in actively.

In fact, generally speaking, the only times this place becomes an anti-WW or anti-Theory site is when certain respective Swine join this site and start posting for no other reason than to try to evangelize their respective swinedoms or with the express intention of troublemaking to try to "defeat" me or this site or something.

You know who you are, and you don't fool anyone.

RPGPundit

And there goes the crazed paranoia again.  Everyone's always out to get you Pundit, that's right.  Those crazy Commies are hiding everywhere!

Incidentally, the forge swine are unrelentingly negative - they just don't notice because they are unreletingly negative about things they don't like.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=336887

Yknow - Here we are bimbling along and some cunt starts RAH RAH RAH EVREHY THJING YOU DO IS WRONXOERSing, and everyone is like Dude, 1: thats not true and 2: fuck you.

Edit -wait, I think this is the wrong thread.

Ah well, swine bashing is always on topic.

Quote from: Thanatos02I don't have a problem with not liking the sub-text of WW games, or discussing it. But this really isn't the same thing.

I don't have a problem with it either.  Everyone's welcome to their opinons, and I even applaud it if their feelings on a matter lead them to create an alternate venue for people to speak their minds and share their opinions. But there's a difference between creating a better and more open alternative and forming a reactionary encampment, which shows in Pundit/Nisarg's behavior.  Coupled with his tendency to stir up controversy for the sake of generating active post counts, and that kind of sucks.  As I said above, though, I'm glad that most people here are using the site more fruitfully.

Oh, but then we have something like this:

Quote from: RPGPunditIn fact, generally speaking, the only times this place becomes an anti-WW or anti-Theory site is when certain respective Swine join this site and start posting for no other reason than to try to evangelize their respective swinedoms or with the express intention of troublemaking to try to "defeat" me or this site or something.

You know who you are, and you don't fool anyone.

Ha, ha.  "I have in my hand a list of 57 known Swine..."  You're a hoot, Pundy.  And you're exactly what you claim to hate.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's a shitload of threads on this forum that have nothing to do with either WW or the Forge, many of whom I was the OP or have otherwise participated in actively.

In fact, generally speaking, the only times this place becomes an anti-WW or anti-Theory site is when certain respective Swine join this site and start posting for no other reason than to try to evangelize their respective swinedoms or with the express intention of troublemaking to try to "defeat" me or this site or something.

You know who you are, and you don't fool anyone.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Thanatos02What it proves is that there's nothing WW could ever do, at all, to make some people happy. When they try to go high brow, they're pretentious ass-holes who disdain the 'common' gamer. When they publish a kung-fu game with superpowers and no pretentions to be anything but a bizzare game about ninja beastmen with electric powers and psionic facists from Thailand fighting communist wrestlers and stoic karate masters, they're selling out.

Bullshit, dude.

Their work reflects on ME? Lol.

I'm perfectly happy thinking that their work reflects on them. In this case, that when Mummy tanked they sold their dignity and hawked Streetfighter: the storytelling game to stay afloat.

Is Pundit right? All I'm saying is: here's a precedent.
:verkill:

Your sense of history is so off it's not even funny.  

Mummy wasn't released as a standalone game until 2001.  Before that it was just a supplement for Vampire, like the Risen were for Wraith.  

Street Fighter predates it by 7 years.  By the time Mummy came out they didn't even have the fucking license anymore, it had been passed on to someone else.

I'm still not understainding why designing a Streetfighter rpg is considered selling out or a bad thing.

Quote from: malleus arianorumTheir work reflects on ME? Lol.

I'm perfectly happy thinking that their work reflects on them. In this case, that when Mummy tanked they sold their dignity and hawked Streetfighter: the storytelling game to stay afloat.

Is Pundit right? All I'm saying is: here's a precedent.

Proof positive that the "war" is being fought by crazy people.

One thing that bears considering in this discussion is the rationale behind White Wolf's marketing tactics (which is where the accusations of "pretentiousness" come from). While I won't bother defending the Rein*Hagen (?) era's excesses, it's absurd to state that White Wolf was trying to subvert the gaming industry from within or any such nonsense.

Quite simply, they marketed to non-gamers in an attempt to create a market for themselves what would keep them from having to compete directly with D&D, since such a thing would be virtual suicide. Sony did something similar with the Playstation and made video gaming a more mainstream phenomenon. Whether White Wolf succeeded in the latter goal is debatable (although they did bring in lots more female gamers).

But the important point to recognize is that they never intended to supplant D&D or convert people away from their old ways of playing, since such a feat would be impossible. Instead, they invited folks into the hobby that might not have been interested in D&D-type games and welcomed back those who had grown dissatisfied and were looking for something new. Sure, some of the previous non-gamers were undesirables who hadn't gamed before because of their own perceived superiority over "common" gamers--but for every one of them, there were several who dove into the hobby head-first and got along fine with everybody.

I'll even bet people out there now playing D&D who wouldn't have done so if not for White Wolf, since the latter was their intro to the hobby at large. TSR's AD&D was fairly intimidating for the potential gamer at the time, with the system and setting bloat that pretty much required that one be introduced to the game by friends who already played it in order to make sense of it all. Of course, it wasn't long before WW games came to fit that description, too, but that was part of the "mainstreaming" process once they were successful enough to start churning out hundreds of supplements like everybody else and no longer had to pretend to be "alternative" or simple enough for "laymen."

No, no, no.  You're getting it all wrong.  Mark Rein*Hagen and his cronies were all sat in a secret room, smoking cigars and plotting the downfall of the RPG industry.  The plan was simple, but effective.

They were going to build a giant space station, capable of blowing up a planet.  But the plans were stolen by a party of level 10 adventurers.  They managed to get the plans to a backwater planet and contact Pundit who was trapped in the icy north.

Surrounded by the Gammorean guards employed by Rein*Hagen's forces, he was only able to slip away by shadowwalking, which he managed to do so only to arrive in Uruguay.  there, he obtained the plans and FedExed them to his contacts in the Forgotten Realms.  And the rest is history.

Clearly the butler did it.

Quote from: malleus arianorumTheir work reflects on ME? Lol.

I never said that.

Quote from: signoftheserpentI'm still not understainding why designing a Streetfighter rpg is considered selling out or a bad thing.

It's a cute game, but the character stats are pretty gonzo. Which I thought was pretty great when I found a copy of it. I already had Combat - the WoD version of Streetfighter, so I didn't buy it though.

Quote from: Black FlagBut the important point to recognize is that they never intended to supplant D&D or convert people away from their old ways of playing, since such a feat would be impossible. Instead, they invited folks into the hobby that might not have been interested in D&D-type games and welcomed back those who had grown dissatisfied and were looking for something new. Sure, some of the previous non-gamers were undesirables who hadn't gamed before because of their own perceived superiority over "common" gamers--but for every one of them, there were several who dove into the hobby head-first and got along fine with everybody.

They also led a movement in game design and structure that would later be pegged as "Story-based Gaming", which caused the mainstream gamers to abandon roleplaying games as a hobby in DROVES.  Far more people left Gaming during WW's dominance of the industry leadership than ever joined it. Compare the numbers of how many people were gaming in 1990, compared to how many were gaming by 1999, and its abysmal.

Their "marketing strategy" I will plainly admit worked fine and dandy for them (at least for a while) but it utterly destroyed the fanbase of the gaming hobby, by pushing out dedicated real roleplayers (by insisting on changing the motivations and the structure of RPGs, and by making it very clear that RPGs were now "Art" and people that played RPGs for Fun were not wanted anymore), and replacing them with people who were gaming because gaming was fashionable in their (goth/vampire-fan) subculture.  Of course, most of the latter left as soon as it stopped being fashionable. The net result was that gaming plunged into a whole it is still trying to work its way out of.  That's what happened on WW's watch.

RPGPundit