Malcolm Sheppard, who wrote part of Lunars, has said that he was thinking of the Vikings (and similar groups) when he wrote the "pro-barbarian" position of Lunars. His point was that groups that are seen as "uncivilised" or "primitive" by a dominant culture often are surprisingly sophisticated without just copying the the dominant culture. He wanted to bring that idea into Exalted. That's hardly an "anti-western" or "anti-humanist" or an "anti-egalitarian/"normal person" position (and er, why are we conflating the three positions with one another?).

Amado has his own reading that he's loudly advocated at times that certainly is critical of Western civilisation, but he didn't write Lunars and has never, so far as I know, worked for White Wolf.

Actually, they've backed off pro-barbarian, noble savage element in the Lunars with 2nd ed. That would be a legitimate complaint for 1st ed., though--except that, in typical White Wolf style, each faction is presented as being only one position among many and not necessarily "right." The Dragon-Blooded, for instance, are unequivocally pro-civilization and are quite popular among players.

But I'm not sorry they dumped that anti-civilization bit for 2nd ed. Lunars. Now they're portrayed as "Stewards" who shepherd new civilizations that they hope will eventually replace the Realm, which they see as irredeemably decadent. It's more constructive and less destructive, which saves them from being a flat caricature. The new edition also uses the term "barbarian" more advisedly, noting that it's generally derogatory and even tribal peoples use it to refer to others whose cultures they find strange and primitive.

And as far as the old WoD being anti-science, I've already conceded that point. The old Mage and Changeling were inexcusably naive in that respect, and I don't miss them one bit. The new Mage, on the other hand, is harder to pin that accusation on, being the most different from its predecessor of all the new lines (so different that old Mage fans' bitching could be heard for miles when it first came out). The new Changeling, due out this year, promises to have nothing whatsoever to do with its predecessor, and I couldn't be happier for that. But that's just one of many reasons why the "swine" you often mention have largely refused to cross over to the new WoD, since it's clearly not porcine enough for them.

Quote from: Black FlagAnd as far as the old WoD being anti-science, I've already conceded that point. The old Mage and Changeling were inexcusably naive in that respect, and I don't miss them one bit. The new Mage, on the other hand, is harder to pin that accusation on, being the most different from its predecessor of all the new lines (so different that old Mage fans' bitching could be heard for miles when it first came out). The new Changeling, due out this year, promises to have nothing whatsoever to do with its predecessor, and I couldn't be happier for that. But that's just one of many reasons why the "swine" you often mention have largely refused to cross over to the new WoD, since it's clearly not porcine enough for them.

I think the changes started earlier than that. You can see the tenor of Mage shifting from Technocracy-as-monolitic-ubervillains to more sympathetic protagonists as early as the transition between 2nd edition and Revised. Of course there were still a lot of holdovers from the bad old days, but I think that White Wolf were increasingly aware of the cardboard cutout nature of their paradigm setup well before the more obvious, sweeping changes they initiated.

In the main though I think many of the problems of mid-90's WW were an artifact of fandom. Undoubtedly the books presented an implicit philosophy and approach to gaming that could be interpreted as one-true-wayism, but it was the explicit extrapolation of these ideas by ravening fanboys that led to the toxic reputation the company ended up with. The primacy of metaplot, the partisan approach to which splat was superior, the rampant denial of the worthiness of crossover, the slavish adherence to the themes presented as though they were holy writ, all these and more contributed to an atmosphere that turned many, many prospective players off. I remember lurking on the old Mage forum and goggling at what a shitfest the online community had become.

Have they gotten less openly hostile to regular gamers? Yes, sure. Less "porcine"? Perhaps somewhat less. But it is all still there, just under the surface. You see it in little comments like the "Roll playing vs. role playing" comment in the new WoD book.  

They still believe in everything they always did. They haven't apologized for it. They've just realized that, having lost the war, they now have to hide their real feelings.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHave they gotten less openly hostile to regular gamers? Yes, sure. Less "porcine"? Perhaps somewhat less. But it is all still there, just under the surface. You see it in little comments like the "Roll playing vs. role playing" comment in the new WoD book.  

They still believe in everything they always did. They haven't apologized for it. They've just realized that, having lost the war, they now have to hide their real feelings.

RPGPundit

I have no idea where you get this opinion from. Are you on acid or something? It's paranoid bullshit and I am fed up reading this crap. Get a fucking life you twat.

Quote from: signoftheserpentI have no idea where you get this opinion from. Are you on acid or something? It's paranoid bullshit and I am fed up reading this crap. Get a fucking life you twat.

You know, I pretty much agree, but that last bit is a bit over the line.

Wooo, I love a display of the virtual steel spine!

We're all so brave and manly at our keyboards.

Quote from: JimBobOzWooo, I love a display of the virtual steel spine!

We're all so brave and manly at our keyboards.

I'm kind of a wuss, actually.

What else can one expect of the guy with the fashionably rebellious V for Vendetta avatar? :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThey still believe in everything they always did. They haven't apologized for it. They've just realized that, having lost the war, they now have to hide their real feelings.

RPGPundit

You do realise that the only people fighting this "war" are you and Settembrini.  

Me, I fall squarely into what you term the "Swine camp", prefer WW to other games, Wouldn't touch d20 or d&d with a 10'by10' pole.  
I get what they (WW) mean by role playing vs roll playing.  But I have no axe to grind, no battle to fight, no agenda to push.  I just want to enjoy myself in a hobby I love with the friends I've made.

And I figure it's much the same with you.  Let go of the hate, it'll only give you stomach ulcers and you're starting to sound like Nox.

Quote from: Thanatos02You know, I pretty much agree, but that last bit is a bit over the line.

Sorry, but I'm sick of seeing all this paranoid nonsense everytime I read a thread. I thought a lot more of this site when I first came here than having now read this sort of drivel from it's bossman. I'm fucking tired of it. It's either that or it's calling everyone who doesn't agree with his nonsense a pig. Hence the get a life comment. He's no better than the rpg.net mods he slags off.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat else can one expect of the guy with the fashionably rebellious V for Vendetta avatar? :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

:rolleyes:

I love some WW games, and I've met a lot of terrific players. But I've also met some that've set my teeth on edge. I've met Swine, so I believe in them, no matter how hyperbolic Pundit sounds, and I agree that these people are utter pricks.
But they sure as hell arn't limited, or caused, by WW games.

I believe that there are some anti-human games, just like there are anti-science elements, or anti-democracy elements. (There are a lot of the latter, I've seen. Just like there are a lot of throwbacks who honestly think we'd be better off with a king. >.>)

I think, though, that for a game to actually be anti-whatever that it not only has to have elements that are anti-x in that game world, but that those elements also have to inform those same elements in the real world. I don't buy Exalted as anti-science (despite that stupid blurb, which is, as far as I know, the only evidence of anti-science on Exalted's part) because the 'secret mythic history of the world' card has been played before and played hard. But, in all of the game's rules or setting, civilization (of any type) or science are not portrayed in a particularly bad light. You've got some barbarians on the fringes who don't like it but... so what? Some game characters don't like the Relm, but that doesn't mean they're objectively correct.

I think the bar is set rather high, then. Is Mage anti-science? Well, there's definitely a case to be made. I argue that it isn't, because the world doesn't inform ours. The premise of the world in Mage doesn't rule on the correctness of science in our world, nor does it pass an ethical ruling. I can see where a case would be made that it does, but having looked at it hard (and having no particular stake in it), I've come to disagree.

I think the best arguement in the WW line for anti-civilization and science comes from Werewolf, which shed much of the complexity for objective game-world correctness and turned its opponents into irredeemably evil mutants. There's some argument to be made that it hasn't but it's going uphill. (There's also Changling, which is arguably both anti-human and anti-civilization.) Vampire also has anti-human sentiments, so I argue that it shows humans in a more positive light then vampires.

I'd argue that Call of The Big C's fairly anti-human and anti-civilization because of the source material. I don't think d20 D&D has any real message inbedded in it. I mean, obviously I set the bar high. If people don't want to play games because elements rub them raw, I don't see an issue. Some of those same elements make me not want to play them myself. I know a friend won't play Call of Cthulu because it's so anti-human, to paraphrase him.

Quote from: signoftheserpentHe's no better than the rpg.net mods he slags off.

Try calling one of the RPG.net mods a "twat" and see if you still believe this after that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Thanatos02Just like there are a lot of throwbacks who honestly think we'd be better off with a king. >.>)

That'd be me.