Lastly, on the prime charge of being anti-humanist, that's another thing you'll find has changed considerably from one game to another. The old WoD can be accused of that in spades, but largely because it was designed with non-humans as the default characters, with normal mortals as an afterthought. In the same way that many fantasy games make playing elves and dwarfs more enticing than "regular" humans (a phenomenon so pervasive that 3E gave humans an extra feat to make them more desirable). It's the same sort of exoticism that lies behind the romanticizing of foreign cultures--gamers often want to play with something weird and alien. I won't even try to excuse the old WoD's putting supernatural creatures behind nearly every historical event, except to point out that it became an in-house joke after a while (with Rasputin being statted as belonging to at least two different vampire clans).

Of course, the new WoD is built on the reverse philosophy. Mortals are the default character type (and the only one detailed in the core book), with supernatural characters being created as mortals and having a supernatural template added on. The setting (such as it is in this decentralized, metaplot-free game) is definitely mortal-centric, with supernatural denizens living on the fringes and trying to get by in their own little corner of the city with no world-spanning factions or conspiracies to empower them. The supernaturals are much less glamorous overall, and their super-human abilities come with definite reasons for them to miss being human (a goal which was never quite achieved in the old WoD due to the kewl powrz that kept accumulating). And then there's Promethean, a game in which you play a creature whose overall purpose is to become human. Taking a cue from Call of Cthulhu, the new WoD drives home the notion that there are certainly worse things to be than a regular Joe with a "normal" life.

The accusation of anti-humanism is more salient when applied to Exalted, but I can make a pretty good case that the game is far more subversive than it appears on the surface. As an anarchist, I have no problem with it and enjoy it immensely. Yes, the default characters are clearly super-human in power, but they're also very human in their motivations and emotional reactions and their character flaws are now equivalent to natural disasters. And while the Solars are Creation's best hope, they're also its worst enemies. And since there are no clearly-defined villains in the game, the same goes for everyone else. In the end, godlike power and good intentions don't justify squat--they might even do more harm than good. And aside from those two things, what give these people the right to guide the destinies of nations and toy with the lives of common folk? They're just a bunch of children playing with the world like it's their sandbox, trying to remake it in their image and claiming divine authority to do so.

In other words, it's Cult of Personality: the Game. And the "gods" aren't any help, either. They're just another set of beings whose authority rests on their power to enforce it (which they haven't bothered to do, on account of their own gaming addiction). In the end, might doesn't make right, as evidenced by all the mighty beings who can't agree on the color of shit. In fact, the notion that power corrupts is one of the strongest themes found in nearly every aspect of the game, even in mortal societies and power structures (e.g. there's no cop-out Lawful-Good king with happy peasants to show how dictatorship can be a good thing).

So without any objective measure or cosmic slide-rule Alignment system, what defines goodness in the Exalted universe? The answer is that you do. And that's humanism in a nutshell. You can't count on gods or heroes to save you or tell you how to live, since they're not any more enlightened than you are, and no amount of raw ass-kicking power will change that.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI think he made the reference as an ironic jest. At least I had no trouble understanding his post as referring to self-styled "Aryans".

!i!

Nevertheless, Nietzsche shifted a little to the left in his grave.

Yeah, I figured he had to be joking.

And considering Pundy's reactionary ranting about certain games being attacks on "Western Civilization," it's a pretty apt joke. If he were from the US, I'm sure he'd have played the "un-American" card by now.

Between you and me, White Wolf games are really a conspiracy aimed at enticing Jews, Negroes, and Chinamen to the hobby, in the interest of pushing out the White Man and promoting communism, witchcraft, homosexuality, and abortion. But don't tell anyone!

Quote from: Black FlagBetween you and me, White Wolf games are really a conspiracy aimed at enticing Jews, Negroes, and Chinamen to the hobby, in the interest of pushing out the White Man and promoting communism, witchcraft, homosexuality, and abortion. But don't tell anyone!

You forgot the Gypsies.

They got powerz.

I think Black Flag nailed it on the gaming angle.

Quote from: Black FlagActually, I've considered starting a "White Wolf: Then & Now" thread, considering some of the outdated statements made by the WW-haters around here. Some, like Pundit, are still railing against a WW that existed in the mid-90s, seemingly unaware that their products, design goals, and customer base are almost entirely different now. As many have said before, White Wolf is mainstream now. There's nothing rebellious about playing White Wolf games anymore, and they don't market themselves as any kind of "alternative" roleplaying experience.
...

Yes, the old WoD was full of stomach-churning errors in judgment, many of which the current designers readily admit were errors. The ethnic stereotyping was just one example (which you'll also find in abundance in "oriental"-themed D&D products, along with many others). The insistence on Po-mo "consensual reality" nonsense and other New-Age faux-spirituality was equally nauseating to me personally. As was the obvious disjunct between how we were told the games were "supposed" to be played and how people actually played them. And yes, there was certainly an air of pretentiousness in the early products (although it had more to do with marketing to non-gamers than with trying to subvert the gaming world or make it more exclusive, as Pundit has claimed).

But lots of folks around here seem to have written White Wolf off so long ago that they haven't bothered to see how they've changed over the past couple of years. ...The whole design philosophy is different, from the ground up, including lessons learned from the previous decade. The resulting difference is such that, despite my having soured on many aspects of the old game, the new one is easily one of my favorites. It's not for everyone, certainly, but neither is D&D or any other single game.

Except that if you check out the NEW WoD main book, it still has all the same "Role playing NOT Roll playing (like they do in that awful D&D)" bullshit, and talk about how WW games are a superior experience and how you should pity the fucking proles and losers who choose to play games for fun.  Granted, now it says that instead of just mocking them you should "educate" them in how to be good swiney-players, but that's not a big improvement.

Not to mention that the "Science is EVIL!" "Western Civilization is evil!" stuff is very much still present in recent WW products, including Exalted.

RPGPundit

Quote from: signoftheserpentDo you have any factual basis for this nonsense other than the blurb of a fantasy rpg?

What a load of twattery.

So wait, what you're asking me here is "do you have any PROOF of WW's biases other than the totally meaningless 'proof' found in quoting their actual books?"

This pretty much sums up to "don't confuse us with the facts!", doesn't it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNot to mention that the "Science is EVIL!" "Western Civilization is evil!" stuff is very much still present in recent WW products, including Exalted.

RPGPundit

Shit, there it is on page 1, word for word. "We hate science and western civilization."

Er... well shit. I thought it did, but I just can't find it anywhere.

Quote from: Thanatos02Shit, there it is on page 1, word for word. "We hate science and western civilization."

Er... well shit. I thought it did, but I just can't find it anywhere.

No it is there.  But only us non-human supremacists can see it.  Your book must have a glitch or you're one of those damnable halfbreeds!

Quote from: RPGPunditThis pretty much sums up to "don't confuse us with the facts!", doesn't it?

I don't recall anyone ever accusing you of confusing anyone with facts.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditSo wait, what you're asking me here is "do you have any PROOF of WW's biases other than the totally meaningless 'proof' found in quoting their actual books?"

This pretty much sums up to "don't confuse us with the facts!", doesn't it?

The irony here is heavy enough to sink ships.

Quote from: StumpydaveNo it is there.  But only us non-human supremacists can see it.  Your book must have a glitch or you're one of those damnable halfbreeds!

Shit! I've been found out!

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept that if you check out the NEW WoD main book, it still has all the same "Role playing NOT Roll playing (like they do in that awful D&D)" bullshit, and talk about how WW games are a superior experience and how you should pity the fucking proles and losers who choose to play games for fun.  Granted, now it says that instead of just mocking them you should "educate" them in how to be good swiney-players, but that's not a big improvement.

Not to mention that the "Science is EVIL!" "Western Civilization is evil!" stuff is very much still present in recent WW products, including Exalted.

RPGPundit

You don't mean to say that you actually believe this 'science is evil' bit is more than just a fucking blurb? Come on man, you can't be that naive. Did WW piss in your cereal or something? I cannot understand all this crap!

Quote from: RPGPunditSo wait, what you're asking me here is "do you have any PROOF of WW's biases other than the totally meaningless 'proof' found in quoting their actual books?"

This pretty much sums up to "don't confuse us with the facts!", doesn't it?

RPGPundit

I want you to justify the crap you're spouting and prove evidence that somehow justifies WW's belief that science actually IS evil.

You really do talk some bollocks mate, i have to say.

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept that if you check out the NEW WoD main book, it still has all the same "Role playing NOT Roll playing (like they do in that awful D&D)" bullshit, and talk about how WW games are a superior experience and how you should pity the fucking proles and losers who choose to play games for fun.  Granted, now it says that instead of just mocking them you should "educate" them in how to be good swiney-players, but that's not a big improvement.

Not to mention that the "Science is EVIL!" "Western Civilization is evil!" stuff is very much still present in recent WW products, including Exalted.

RPGPundit

I don't have my WoD book on hand right now, so I'll have to get back to you on that one. On the other hand, aside from the solitary (and admittedly dumb and irrelevant) blurb you mentioned, how can Exalted hold the position that either science or "Western civilization" is evil? It takes place in a fantasy world where science includes things like astrology and demon-summoning. Moreover, its cultures aren't meant to correlate directly with those of the real world. Nor are any particular cultures portrayed as being especially noble or decadent--apart from the Realm, which is a fair mix of both. One can read the game as mildly anti-imperialist, since everyone who tries to rule the world ends up screwing it up eventually despite their best intentions. But imperialism isn't a Western invention. Nor is it something anyone openly defends anymore.

It would help a great deal if you could define what you mean by "Western civilization," since it's hardly obvious. The Homeric epics, for instance, are big influences on Exalted, and they're generally considered to be the cornerstone of Western literature. The only thing unusual about Exalted setting-wise is that it goes for a mythic, ancient-world feel instead of a pseudo-medieval one. That naturally entails an animistic world-view rather than the basically Christian one you get with most fantasy settings (despite the thin veneer of "polytheism"). It also means it resembles Robert E. Howard or the TV show Rome more than, say, The Lord of the Rings, and as a pulp fan and a classicist I appreciate that.

Of course, people who equate a specifically Christian world-view with "Western civilization" are going to feel its absence (whereas D&D, in keeping with its pseudo-medieval implied setting, holds to basically Christian assumptions), but I can argue with that definition ad infinitum, since Western cultures were around for quite a long time before that particular religious movement made its mark.

If you're looking for subversive "Western" settings, look no further than Warhammer. It's a European's answer to Americans' inexplicable habit of romanticizing medieval Europe. The whole thing is a tongue-in-cheek way of saying, "This was a really shitty time to be alive, fuckers, and if you get bored wading through shit and pus and oppressive ignorance, there's some orcs over there for you to fight." They even managed to work in some revenge porn by populating their version of North America with evil dark elves who fled there after losing a war with the high elves who live on an island to the east. I think it's hilarious, but it certainly doesn't paint a wholesome picture of "Western civilization." It's the time period that brought us witch-burnings, only with elves and shit. It's proof that even with elves and magic, we're still a bunch of benighted assholes.

Obviously its pretty hard for Exalted itself to be anti-western-civilization.  That statement was meant more to refer to WW's other games, Werewolf & Mage in particular (with Changeling just being anti-everything-human, period).

That said, WW still managed to put in all the noble savage stuff with the Lunars, and at least a few Exalted fans have claimed that people MUST like the Lunars or if they don't, they're racists (most famously, ex-rpgnet nutcase Amado said this, somehow suggesting that if you don't support a culture seeking to destroy civilization, you must be racist, because everyone knows that only white people ever supported the concept of living in cities). :rolleyes:

RPGPundit