Quote from: WarthurExalted is the only fantasy RPG I have encountered which does this; no other fantasy RPG I have had any experience with has felt a need to say "Step away from 21st century science, because this is a world of fantasy and magic" in quite such an in-your-face way, because it's one of those things which really doesn't need to be said.

And yet, weirdly, since it's first publication, Exalted has increasingly incorporated elements of the setting's 1st Age Clarkean super-science-cum-magic (or super-magic-cum-science) that, by the look of things, make the game border on science-fantasy.  As with all game lines from White Wolf, it's a bundle of contradictions designed, not by committee, but by mail-in-vote.  No, that doesn't let the statement you cited off the hook, but other published material have reduced it to embarrassing ad-copy.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneIn fact, some variant of "all science and learning is badwrong" is one of the staples of intro sections to White Wolf games going clear back to Vampire.

You might be stretching this statement one game too far.  Certainly Werewolf: the Apocalypse took this stance, and it was further propagated in Mage and Changeling, but I don't recall this sort of attitude 1st edition Vampire.  No, there you had the declaration of a "Gothic Punk" atmosphere, where absolutely everything worse off than it is in our real world.  They went gunning for religion, authority, and personal integrity pretty hard, but I don't think it was really until they began to publish materials for a unified "World of Darkness" setting that the Werewolf/Mage anti-science bias began to emerge in the Vampire books.

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Quote from: WarthurWhy does Exalted feel the need to make this bold statement on the back cover in the first place?

As far as I can tell, the purpose of that statement isn't to claim that science is wrong in general, but that in the setting it is mistaken about the lost prehistory of the world since the universe itself has changed since then.

If science was wrong about a fact in a game world's cosmology, the designers hate science?

That doesn't really iron out.

These worlds pretty much operate according to different premises; I don't recall any particular anti-technology bias on the part of Vampire, unless you count anti-establishment attitudes on the part of the writers (attitude doesn't conflate with game theme) as inherantly anti-technology. Werewolf and Changling, I've already gone on the record. I'll conceed Werewolf, even though I feel the issue is more sophisiticated then total anti-science. Mage, though, is really built on a totally different premise.

Which is, actually, that if reality really is based on consensual agreement of millions of people then the scientific method and the workings of the universe would be a sham. It isn't saying that it is, here, but that it would be there.

The argument naturally moves onto why it casts the Technocracy as the bad guys. Well, Mage's theme is that power over others corrupts. It's not that the Technocracy is totally evil (and therefore, so is science) but an issue that the past saviors of the world are now its conquerers. The Technocracy really were the saviors of the world; the Traditions, the old rulers, were assholes that quashed the masses for their own benifits. Now the Technocracy squashes the mystic in order to keep people safe; this is arguably a more well-meaning action, but it still removes their free will.

The text in the book paints the Traditions as good, but only because they're not in power, and don't have any reasonable way to re-establish control. As long as they're not excercising control over mortals, they're a positive force.

I think there is a theme in all the books that science isn't inherantly good, and progress isn't an inherant good. It's done so much for us, but people have still pushed it on uninterested people or conquered them economically or  politically. Also, there are drawbacks to the built-up society we've got today. I don't think pointing that out is universally anti-science.

Quote from: malleus arianorum... In the case of Lovecraft, Anne Rice and WW the problem is the idealized superiority of occult Caucasian males v.s. their real life contributions to history. The solution takes the form of an alt-history that explains why occult Caucasian males are superior but not successful.
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I don't mind debating, but here's something you're clearly incorrect on. You're harping on a bias towards Caucasian males in WW that doesn't exist.

It goes the other way so hard, you're head would spin, which tells me you haven't read any of the source material.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou might be stretching this statement one game too far.  Certainly Werewolf: the Apocalypse took this stance, and it was further propagated in Mage and Changeling, but I don't recall this sort of attitude 1st edition Vampire.  No, there you had the declaration of a "Gothic Punk" atmosphere, where absolutely everything worse off than it is in our real world.  They went gunning for religion, authority, and personal integrity pretty hard, but I don't think it was really until they began to publish materials for a unified "World of Darkness" setting that the Werewolf/Mage anti-science bias began to emerge in the Vampire books.

!i!

I may be thinking of 2nd Ed. Vampire, but I know for certain that one of it's editions held the same rant.

Quote from: Thanatos02I don't mind debating, but here's something you're clearly incorrect on. You're harping on a bias towards Caucasian males in WW that doesn't exist.

:harp:

Ok yes you caught me, I was harping on "occult Cauccasian males" when the word I was really thinking of is "Aryans." Certainly there are non-Aryan protagonists in WW fiction but the mere inclusion of asians, indians, and women does not prove a contradiction so long as they conform with their archetypical oriental, nobel savage, and hysterical man-without-a-penis roles.

I was only well aquainted with the first two or three years worth of WoD material so I am open to the idea that they may have refined their approach since then. I would be pleasantly surprised if they managed to transform the angsty suffering of the occult white male into a universal form, exactly as I would enjoy findining a Lovecraft story with a female protagonist. (Next best thing: Anchorhead) Certainly D&D's hobbits and ballrogs have changed but to pretend that their current incarnation has no relation to their origin cheapens our appreciation of them IMHO. Same goes for WW and Aryans.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd being a goth is apparently a very health coping mechanism for the trauma of life - there was an artical in the guardian about how ex-goths experience substantialy better life outcomes than the average.

Not trying to shit on your point, but The Guardian isn't what I'd call the best representative of psychological journals.

Quote from: GrimGentAs far as I can tell, the purpose of that statement isn't to claim that science is wrong in general, but that in the setting it is mistaken about the lost prehistory of the world since the universe itself has changed since then.

But what is the point of saying that in the first place? Does it really, honestly matter to any Exalted campaign that the setting is meant to be a lost prehistory of Earth? (It doesn't help that the setting of Exalted doesn't even slightly resemble Earth. Why not just say "it's a fantasy world, unconnected to our own"?)

Quote from: WarthurBut what is the point of saying that in the first place? Does it really, honestly matter to any Exalted campaign that the setting is meant to be a lost prehistory of Earth? (It doesn't help that the setting of Exalted doesn't even slightly resemble Earth. Why not just say "it's a fantasy world, unconnected to our own"?)

Mythic Resonance.

Quote from: DrewMythic Resonance.

Personally, I find that it's entirely possible to create mythic resonance without referring back to whether or not the thing being discussed fits in with RL science. Middle Earth has heaps of mythic resonance, but Tolkein doesn't bother to say "Scientists and historians are wrooooooooong!"

Quote from: WarthurMiddle Earth has heaps of mythic resonance, but Tolkein doesn't bother to say "Scientists and historians are wrooooooooong!"

Even if Tolkien doesn't emphasize that particular feature, they of course are wrong in both cases: both Creation and Arda have been "bent" since their origin to create the planet that we know today, so that it is no longer possible to, say, sail to the edge of the world. Actually, you could say the same thing about the Young Kingdoms of Elric.

Quote from: WarthurPersonally, I find that it's entirely possible to create mythic resonance without referring back to whether or not the thing being discussed fits in with RL science. Middle Earth has heaps of mythic resonance, but Tolkein doesn't bother to say "Scientists and historians are wrooooooooong!"

No, but he did identify Middle Earth as the lost prehistory of our own world, and portrayed industrialism as being at direct odds with a more naturally harmonious, pastoral existence.  

Personally I think the "Do not believe..." line is a stupid throwback to mid 90's White Wolf and the paradigm wars they insisted on inserting into so many of their products. I like the idea of Creation as  prehistory though, and think that it's far more resonant than just another isolated fanatsy world that through sheer coincidence resembles our own.

At the end of the day I see it as an example of sloppy, retrograde writing being allowed to slip back in, which is a shame because the underlying concept of a hidden, mythic past is quite cool.

Quote from: DrewNo, but he did identify Middle Earth as the lost prehistory of our own world, and portrayed industrialism as being at direct odds with a more naturally harmonious, pastoral existence.

"I will not walk with your progressive apes,
erect and sapient. Before them gapes
the dark abyss to which their progress tends
if by God's mercy progress ever ends,
and does not ceaselessly revolve the same
unfruitful course with changing of a name.
I will not tread your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art."

(From "Mythopoeia".)

Speaking of resonance and ambience, my favourite passage from the first edition of Exalted was...

"Before the world was bent but after the Great Contagion, there was a civilization built in the image of the First Age. It sought to emulate the splendor of the bygone Golden Age, but it was in all ways less. It was a time of sorcery and heroism, of fabulous wonders and treacherous betrayals. Ruled by a decadent empire, it slipped inch by inch into barbarism and darkness, until one last cataclysm blotted it out forever. Yet, in its sunset, it was a splendid thing, and glorious were the deeds of the Exalted."

...And that simply doesn't have nearly the same feel without the connection, no matter how tenuous, to the modern world.