Quote from: WarthurIgnoring the Pundit's assumptions about the motivations of the Exalted designers, why does this sort of thing appear so often in RPGs? I get the impression that it happens far more often in games than it does in, say, books or movies: why is that? Is it the nastier side of the wish-fulfilment element of roleplaying?

No, it's much more interesting than that.

   There is, I reflected tritely, an infinite deal of pathos in the state of an eminent person who has come down in the world. -H.P. Lovecraft

People-hate results from trying to reconcile a false worldview with the facts. You can see it when Christians imagine they are the only posessors of morality, when Atheists pretend they are the soul posessors of reason, and more to the point, when the Aryans made their claims of spiritual superiority. These trainwrecks of delusion and fact can lead to alternate history and people hate.

On the other hand, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Rifts, Amber, In Nomine and other such games are inofensive -- they're not trying to prove anything.

Quote from: David R(Bolding mine) I disagree, but I think this is a discussion for another thread. But your point about genre conventions specifically the action genre is what I was trying to get at. Most times in rpgs it's all about action and not really about the human condition, hence characters and the setting sometimes overlook human beings in favour of characters having thrilling adventures, it's not really a hatred or self hatred of being human as mentioned by J, but rather one of the conventions of the genre.

Fair enough. Personally I don't roleplay for deep explorations of the human condition. I have other, more personally fulfilling avenues for that in my life. If it's something that you enjoy though, then go for it.

And I agree that pessimistic or even dystopian presentations of humanity needn't be a symptom of self-hatred. Like I said earlier I tend to view this sort of thing as opportunities for conflict and cool adventures.

Quote from: DrewFair enough. Personally I don't roleplay for deep explorations of the human condition; I have other, more personally fulfilling avenues for that in my life. If it's something that you enjoy though, then go for it.

Well it's not as though my games plumb the depths of what it means to be human but rather my adventures/campaigns have a rather humanistic POV - it's something that my players enjoy and not a satatement or anything on my part

Regards,
David R

Quote from: malleus arianorumNo, it's much more interesting than that.

   There is, I reflected tritely, an infinite deal of pathos in the state of an eminent person who has come down in the world. -H.P. Lovecraft

People-hate results from trying to reconcile a false worldview with the facts. You can see it when Christians imagine they are the only posessors of morality, when Atheists pretend they are the soul posessors of reason, and more to the point, when the Aryans made their claims of spiritual superiority. These trainwrecks of delusion and fact can lead to alternate history and people hate.

On the other hand, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Rifts, Amber, In Nomine and other such games are inofensive -- they're not trying to prove anything.

We have entire subcultures now centered around individuals who simply can't bear to be "merely human", and start imagining themselves as somehow more than that.

We get furries and otherkin and otakukin and all the other breeds of loonykin, people who've so bought into the idea that humanity sucks that their minds have to delude themselves into thinking they're something other than what they are.

That's a fucked up thing right there.

Quote from: J ArcaneWe have entire subcultures now centered around idividuals who simply can't bear to be "merely human", and start imagining themselves as somehow more than that.

We get furries and otherkin and otakukin and all the other breads of loonykin, people who've so bought into the idea that humanity sucks that their minds have to delude themselves into thinking they're something other than what they are.

That's a fucked up thing right there.

Not without precedent, though. One could even go as far as saying that the absence of omnipresent, nigh compulsory religious traditions in technologically developed cultures makes this sort of thing inevitable.

On the other hand it could be that as a species we're just getting progressively loonier.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to play an ordinary guy in any game. Real life does that much better. I roleplay so i can do super and stupid things. doesn't make them childish or me shallow and the games i play likewise.

I really dont' see how Exalted can be considered anti-human.

Quote from: David REdit : I'm not saying that most games don't pay attention to the human condition but rather the whole "let's blow shit up and have kewl adventures" sometimes creates a situation were humanity is nothing more than collateral waiting to be damaged....I call it the desensitization of the human condition in rpgs. Yeah my Swine-ish colours are showing now.

Regards,
David R

I think that's a pretty absurd red herring; certainly there might be a couple of games that are of that sort of "hack and slash" genre where humanity are all just treated as potential meat for the grinder... maybe FATAL? But in general those instances are so small and relatively meaningless within the hobby that making this kind of argument is just a desperate effort to distract from accusations of anti-humanism in the games that really revel in this shit: the Swine's games.

Though, I note, mostly the WW Story-based Swine games... the Forge Swine, though filled with problems of their own, don't seem to have or show a lot of anti-humanism in their games. Interesting.  Makes me wonder what the Master of Bat Dongs would have to say about all this...

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneIn the original Changeling, human society is so horrible and boring and uncreative that it will actually kill you, or at least, the magical fairy living inside you, leaving the human that's left a dried up husk who can only remember with bitterness the creativity he once possessed, because no human could ever be as amazing and wonderful and magical as a Fae.

I conceed your argument for Changeling so hard, I blew out the electric in my apartment.
Seriously, that banality crap was so stupid it made me dizzy.

Quote from: RPGPunditI think that's a pretty absurd red herring; certainly there might be a couple of games that are of that sort of "hack and slash" genre where humanity are all just treated as potential meat for the grinder... maybe FATAL? But in general those instances are so small and relatively meaningless within the hobby that making this kind of argument is just a desperate effort to distract from accusations of anti-humanism in the games that really revel in this shit: the Swine's games.

I don't think so. It's like what Drew said it's more of the convention of the genre. Most times the consequence of the killing sprees of the pcs are not dealt with. Let's not go into the whole black/white us/them world view that seems to shape most heroism in rpgs or the fact that the law a necessary component of any society in governing human relations is seldom dealt with. All these are the very human elements that seems to be missing in most games...even WW ones. Like I said it's more the escapist nature of the hobby than anything else. So no, not really a red herring at all.

For instance a good game IMO which deals with stuff like this and retains it's adventure elements is Midnight. And for the supers genre maybe Underground. Both I think are good example of pro human games even though the former suffers from E&D...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI don't think so. It's like what Drew said it's more of the convention of the genre. Most times the consequence of the killing sprees of the pcs are not dealt with.

Most of the times, the killing sprees of the PCs are against inhuman savage monsters out to destroy mankind.

QuoteLet's not go into the whole black/white us/them world view that seems to shape most heroism in rpgs

Why the fuck not? Are you one of those spineless fucking moral relativists?
Did an effeminate aging-hippy philosophy professor teach you that at community college while he was fondling your nipples, bucky?

Quoteor the fact that the law a necessary component of any society in governing human relations is seldom dealt with.

In your games maybe. In my games and most games I've seen, if you kill something that isn't an orc, you get the city guard on your ass.
I once had a PC Dwarf in D&D campaign I ran serve a five year prison sentence.

QuoteAll these are the very human elements that seems to be missing in most games...even WW ones. Like I said it's more the escapist nature of the hobby than anything else. So no, not really a red herring at all.

Your original point seemed to be "well, D&D is violent hack and slash so its anti-human too!" which was a red herring.
Your current point seems to be "ok, in that case I'll just say all RPGs are escapist, since my original point is getting slaughtered", which is also a red herring, by definition.

We aren't defining "anti-humanism" as escapism here. We're not saying a game has to be some kind of hippy-socialist "socially conscious" wankfest or some shit like that to be pro-human. We're just saying that games where you play a creature that is no longer human (or "greater than human" in the sense of having left his humanity behind) where at the same time humanity is treated like chattel, not by a group of players but by the very conventions of the game setting, that is a game that is anti-human.  And all of WW's games fit that bill to a tee.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMost of the times, the killing sprees of the PCs are against inhuman savage monsters out to destroy mankind.

Yeah hence the escapist nature of the hobby. It helps to pay attention when folks other then your proxies are talking.

QuoteWhy the fuck not? Are you one of those spineless fucking moral relativists?
Did an effeminate aging-hippy philosophy professor teach you that at community college while he was fondling your nipples, bucky?

Listen skank. Don't confuse an appreciation for nuance/complexicity in life or games with spinelessness or moral relavitism.

And just because some WW gamers stopped you from rubbing yourself on old Elmore prints, don't think it excuses your prickish behaviour online.

QuoteIn your games maybe. In my games and most games I've seen, if you kill something that isn't an orc, you get the city guard on your ass.
I once had a PC Dwarf in D&D campaign I ran serve a five year prison sentence.

And yet most games/settings don't appreciate this fact. Play defines reality, so yeah good for you and me that we do this in our games.

QuoteYour original point seemed to be "well, D&D is violent hack and slash so its anti-human too!" which was a red herring.

Where did I say this you lying toad?

QuoteYour current point seems to be "ok, in that case I'll just say all RPGs are escapist, since my original point is getting slaughtered", which is also a red herring, by definition.

Actually this has been my point all along. Refer to my first post in this thread. Read before posting you dumb fuck.

QuoteWe aren't defining "anti-humanism" as escapism here. We're not saying a game has to be some kind of hippy-socialist "socially conscious" wankfest or some shit like that to be pro-human. We're just saying that games where you play a creature that is no longer human (or "greater than human" in the sense of having left his humanity behind) where at the same time humanity is treated like chattel, not by a group of players but by the very conventions of the game setting, that is a game that is anti-human.  And all of WW's games fit that bill to a tee.

The thread may have started out like this but it has changed. As usual you could have just quoted Warthur and be done with it. Others were having a conversation when you decided to sick your flithy nose in. And no you twit, not all WW games are anti -human.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditWhy the fuck not? Are you one of those spineless fucking moral relativists?
Did an effeminate aging-hippy philosophy professor teach you that at community college while he was fondling your nipples, bucky?

Maybe because it's not directly relevant to the discussion at hand.  Maybe because it's a needless digression that would only draw attention away from the weakness of your own arguments.

Maybe you're figuring that your typical resort to totally unfounded, crass insults will goad him into something stupid that you can attack.  You're totally pathetic.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneIn the original Changeling, human society is so horrible and boring and uncreative that it will actually kill you, or at least, the magical fairy living inside you, leaving the human that's left a dried up husk who can only remember with bitterness the creativity he once possessed, because no human could ever be as amazing and wonderful and magical as a Fae.

And this aspect of Changeling becomes even more infuriating when you realise that Changeling defines creativity as "dragons and fairies and wizards and stuff".

In Changeling, the most cliched, third-rate, semi-plagiarised, badly written fantasy novel based of someone's abortive D&D campaign is inherently more creative than, say, 1984 or The Naked Lunch or The Third Policeman or The Trial...

FFS! I've got to start hating all those worthless humans now? Damn!  I was starting to enjoy my "humanity".  I guess as a WW fan (Changeling as my favourite of their games), moral relatavist and apparent swine, I've now got to cultivate a superiority complex and "freak the mundanes".

I wish someone could have told me about this when I started.

(Though I find it funny that it's ok to get your kill on when its non humans. One rule for us?)

Quote from: DrewNot without precedent, though. One could even go as far as saying that the absence of omnipresent, nigh compulsory religious traditions in technologically developed cultures makes this sort of thing inevitable.

Its the Lovecraftian ideal that our minds cannont accept that we're alone and meaninginless in an uncaring universe. Without some belief that all this MEANS something, we go a bit (or more) insane. Tht's why Religion has been so successful for so long - it gives people a framework of reference to build their ego around. Believe me, I've had more than my share of "ewww" moments trying to imagine what dying would be like, when there's no "other side" to look back from for reference. Not even being capable of realising you're dead is a sickening prospect to me for some reason, as is missing out on everything else that'll happen after I'm gone. I need to know what's happening!!!