Quote from: jeff37923Do games that are not humanocentric generate negative behaviors in their players? (Be careful in answering that one, its loaded for bear.)

By that you mean negative behaviors not shared by any other roleplayers, right?  I don't think there's a clear-cut answer to that.

Certain types of games will attract certain types of players, but I don't think the behavior of those players is really going to be altered by the game itself.  It's just a matter of people seeking out affirmation of their personal outlook on life.  But for every angsty waif who wants to fantasise about being embraced by humanity's predators, there's some paunchy schlub who wants to fantasise about rising to become humanity's sword-wielding, blood-soaked overlord.  When it comes to complaining about games that pander to the affirmation of vicarious power fantasies...jeez, pick your poison.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneJust because you don't care to see something doesn't mean it isn't there.  I'd go so far as to suggest that your previously discussed attitude towards the subject is inclined to make such things easily go unnoticed, because they don't clash with your own beliefs they way they might with mine, for example.

Nah, I get the idea that fairly ordinary humans should be viable player options, that non-humans shouldn't be arbitrarily better, etc, etc. I just don't see player options that depart from this as being indicative of the former.

Superman might have kewl powerz, but Batman has 1337 skillz.

So I can see that human heroes (Indiana Jones, Flash Gordon, Batman, etc.) are cool. I'd play 'em myself. But nonhuman (Superman, the major, Swamp Thing, etc.) are cool too.

So what I "don't care to see" is the connection between superhumans and an anti-humanity stance. Maybe white wolf is anti-humanity. never played or read much of their stuff (despite or maybe because of its predominance on my local used book shop's shelves). I just think it's ridiculous to conflate my wanting to spray neurotoxins out of my wrists (or whatever) with my hating humanity.

Maybe flight would have been a better choice of power for that example, but... you get what I'm saying, right?

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, me being human and all, when a game starts laying on thick the "humans suck" vibe, it rather turns me off.  

It turns me off of games as well, but that is a matter of taste. Just because I don't get into the same things or playstyles that others do, doesn't mean to me that the game itself is bad.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBy that you mean negative behaviors not shared by any other roleplayers, right?  I don't think there's a clear-cut answer to that.

I don't think there is a clear-cut answer either. The problem is that when you declare that a game influences behavior outside of the game, then you have achieved the kind of bullshit espoused in Mazes & Monsters or discussed in the Pulling Report.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaCertain types of games will attract certain types of players, but I don't think the behavior of those players is really going to be altered by the game itself.  It's just a matter of people seeking out affirmation of their personal outlook on life.  But for every angsty waif who wants to fantasise about being embraced by humanity's predators, there's some paunchy schlub who wants to fantasise about rising to become humanity's sword-wielding, blood-soaked overlord.  When it comes to complaining about games that pander to the affirmation of vicarious power fantasies...jeez, pick your poison.

!i!

Agreed. Although I wonder if sales figures can be used to roughly represent which particular poison is more popular.

Now this almost begs the questions: Do the kinds of RPGs that people play say something about them psychologically? Do the types of RPGs that a person plays say anything relevant about that person?

Quote from: jeff37923It turns me off of games as well, but that is a matter of taste. Just because I don't get into the same things or playstyles that others do, doesn't mean to me that the game itself is bad.

By and large, I agree with you, in that I am similarly leery to go on the attack against someone else's playstyle or taste in games in the manner of Forger or Pundit type rants.

I would suggest though, that there's something a bit unhealthy about going from simply being more than human, or other than human, and actively revelling in a hatred of your own kind.  

I think there's a threshold there, and it does get crossed, and when it does, I start to back away the same way I'd back away from the crazy guy on the public bus with the tinfoil hat, who's rambling about the end of the world coming at the hands of evil space Mexicans from beyond our solar system.  

It's an ugly attitude, and made uglier still by the fact that the ranter always conveniently leaves themselves out of that class of "those nasty humans".  

Self-hatred is a nasty, nasty thing,

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNever in all of the Exalted books that I've read is this stated or implied.  Your stating so is either a misconception on your part or a disingenuity.  So which is it, Pundy?  Are you ignorant, or a liar?

!i!

for truth

The reason I traitionally give White Wolf games the pass, those games being Vampire and, for the most part, Warewolf, is that you're essentially playing the bad guy. In these games, the players or, at least, their society really is anti-human, and their are philosophical reasons for that. I.e. if you were an inhuman monster that fed off what you were, you'd go out of your way to rationalize it, go insane, or die. What's left are the rationalizers, trying to stay sane.

It's not my cup of tea. I don't play a lot of Vampire. I opt for Mage, NWoD mortals, or D&D myself.

In games like Vampire, you don't ask for your power; it's forced on you. You get real good at killing people and surviving your condition in exchange for what's actually enjoyable in life, like eating, drinking, screwing, and hanging out with your friends at the park without having to eat them. I think the big misconception, if anything, is that most people play games to kill shit and kick people's teeth in, and they can still eat in day to day life, so their characters giving up things like whiskey and nookie doesn't seem like much of an issue. It's all upside and no downside.

Well, that's not really how it's supposed to be played. You play for long enough, and it's supposed to kick in that being undead isn't really any fun unless you rationalize it and make up a society. Which you know is made up. And that's why I don't play Vampire. Not because people are playing it wrong, but that it's a downer with not much of an upside if you play it straight.

It's not anti-human. Neither is Werewolf. Neither is Mage. Neither is D&D, Exalted, of superhero games. They're all founded on the human condition. It's a bollacks argument.

If you want to complain about people feeling superior and being assholes because they think the games they play make them better people, go ahead. They're assholes. I agree. But these games? Mostly, you're making bad arguements. Get it straight. You can't fucking critisize Exalted, for instance, along these lines Pundit, because you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You're just full of shit on this one.

...okay, I wouldn't have bothered posting that explanation if you guys hadn't slipped in FOUR PAGES of it. Seriously. Clicked the link, saw Exalted stuff, posted a reply. Had no idea it'd gotten this far ahead.

My only complaint is that a handful of red letters means his ignorance, hypocrisy, and ready lies don't fit in Ignore List, which appears to hunger for people immune to thought.

Quote from: Thanatos02It's not anti-human. Neither is Werewolf. Neither is Mage. Neither is D&D, Exalted, of superhero games. They're all founded on the human condition. It's a bollacks argument.

Agreed. Most of the fiction these games are drawn from are explorations of different aspects of humanity, personified as supernatural beings. The vampire as metaphor for human sexuality and predation is well known. Werewolves appeal to the savage ancestry we share with more primal forebears gradually slipping out of our civilised control. Superheroes (Exalted included) draw from myth cycles where titanic beings played out their human passions and conflicts on an epic scale.

Fundamentally I think it's all about humanity. Some aspects will be life affirming, others will be horrific. Given that most RPG's use conflict and struggle as primary motivators it's hardly surprising that so many of them dwell on the latter aspect. That they do is in no way "anti-human" though, merely a choice of emphasis.

Quote from: beejazzSee, the reason that question hasn't been answered so far is because everything down to the thread title assumes playing super-human, post-human, ubermensch, or any other flavor of "like a human, but with 1337 skills and kewl powerz" is bad and that you must "hate humanity" to play such games.

Seriously, no, go back and reread the opening post and actually carefully read the Nephilim Law quoted there from the RPG Cliche List. This is not about games where you play supermen - this is about games where you play supermen and the "mundanes" are treated like mindless sheep.

Quote from: J ArcaneI would suggest though, that there's something a bit unhealthy about going from simply being more than human, or other than human, and actively revelling in a hatred of your own kind.  

I think there's a threshold there, and it does get crossed, and when it does, I start to back away the same way I'd back away from the crazy guy on the public bus with the tinfoil hat, who's rambling about the end of the world coming at the hands of evil space Mexicans from beyond our solar system.  

I think this is correct but are there any games that cross that threshold ? In the beginning of this thread I made a post about how the escapist nature of rpgs sometimes meant that humanity or human values are treated with contempt. Okay I'll put it another way, I see games which are sympathethic to the human condition (see the other thread) but I kinda of suspect that the designers of those games are interested in that sort of thing rather than most games where it's all about characters with kewl powers rising uncaringly above the herd...

Edit : I'm not saying that most games don't pay attention to the human condition but rather the whole "let's blow shit up and have kewl adventures" sometimes creates a situation were humanity is nothing more than collateral waiting to be damaged....I call it the desensitization of the human condition in rpgs. Yeah my Swine-ish colours are showing now.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI'm not saying that most games don't pay attention to the human condition but rather the whole "let's blow shit up and have kewl adventures" sometimes creates a situation were humanity is nothing more than collateral waiting to be damaged....I call it the desensitization of the human condition in rpgs. Yeah my Swine-ish colours are showing now.

I don't really see this as a problem. Ninja get cut down, Stormtroopers get shot, the palace guard are there to be overcome as you fight your way to the Grand Vizier's chambers. It's one of the conventions of the action genre, and as such doesn't really warrant meaningful examination.

Of course if all humanity is nothing more than screaming meat to be slaughtered at whim then it's more problematic, but I've never played in a game where this was so.

Quote from: DrewI don't really see this as a problem. Ninja get cut down, Stormtroopers get shot, the palace guard are there to be overcome as you fight your way to the Grand Vizier's chambers. It's one of the conventions of the action genre, and as such doesn't really warrant meaningful examination.

(Bolding mine) I disagree, but I think this is a discussion for another thread. But your point about genre conventions specifically the action genre is what I was trying to get at. Most times in rpgs it's all about action and not really about the human condition, hence characters and the setting sometimes overlook human beings in favour of characters having thrilling adventures, it's not really a hatred or self hatred of being human as mentioned by J, but rather one of the conventions of the genre.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI think this is correct but are there any games that cross that threshold ? In the beginning of this thread I made a post about how the escapist nature of rpgs sometimes meant that humanity or human values are treated with contempt. Okay I'll put it another way, I see games which are sympathethic to the human condition (see the other thread) but I kinda of suspect that the designers of those games are interested in that sort of thing rather than most games where it's all about characters with kewl powers rising uncaringly above the herd...

Edit : I'm not saying that most games don't pay attention to the human condition but rather the whole "let's blow shit up and have kewl adventures" sometimes creates a situation were humanity is nothing more than collateral waiting to be damaged....I call it the desensitization of the human condition in rpgs. Yeah my Swine-ish colours are showing now.

Regards,
David R

In the original Changeling, human society is so horrible and boring and uncreative that it will actually kill you, or at least, the magical fairy living inside you, leaving the human that's left a dried up husk who can only remember with bitterness the creativity he once possessed, because no human could ever be as amazing and wonderful and magical as a Fae.

Quote from: J ArcaneIn the original Changeling, human society is so horrible and boring and uncreative that it will actually kill you, or at least, the magical fairy living inside you, leaving the human that's left a dried up husk who can only remember with bitterness the creativity he once possessed, because no human could ever be as amazing and wonderful and magical as a Fae.

Okay I never read Changeling so if that's your example, I can see where you're coming from.

Regards,
David R