Quote from: WarthurIgnoring the Pundit's assumptions about the motivations of the Exalted designers, why does this sort of thing appear so often in RPGs? I get the impression that it happens far more often in games than it does in, say, books or movies: why is that? Is it the nastier side of the wish-fulfilment element of roleplaying?

I think it's all part of the escapist nature of rpgs. I'm, pretty sure that kewl powers and a contempt (IMO) for humanistic themes go hand in hand in most games. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, just that it seems to be the nature of the beast, so to speak.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: DrewIt was only a matter of time before RPG's eventually latched on to this. Claiming that it's "anti-human" is ridiculous, unless you want to make a case that all super-powered characters somehow undermine our precious mortality. Exalted is similar to playing a 10th level Wizard, or Spider-Man, and I don't see games featuring them being decried as the foul scribblings of those who would deny us our essential worth.

I would argue that the 10th level Wizard is the odd man out there: the wizard has gained his powers through concerted study and practice in his chosen art as opposed to being picked out by Destiny for Great Things.

However, again, just having characters be special isn't enough for the Nephilim Law - go back to the OP and reread it. What I'm talking about isn't games where all the characters are Special, but games where all the characters are Special and only Special people really matter, and that normal human beings are essentially disposable, or exist only to give (for example) the vampires something to feed on.

EDIT TO ADD: Spiderman is actually a good example here: while Spidey has abilities that eclipse mere mortals, he still deeply cares about the people around him. I'm not sure I get the same vibe from Exalted.

I remember someone saying that Players tend to be very good at figuring out how the GMs world really works, rather than they way the GM wished it worked.

NPCs tend to fall in to easily recognisable roles like Patron, Target and Other.

Not sure theres anything you can do about them (correctly) tagging the Others as not being relevant.

Quote from: WarthurI would argue that the 10th level Wizard is the odd man out there: the wizard has gained his powers through concerted study and practice in his chosen art as opposed to being picked out by Destiny for Great Things.

Plenty of people start out play with higher level characters. Plenty of systems emphasise the special nature of PC's. D&D does this with the division between adventuring and non-adventuring classes. It may not be as explicit as some, but with an abundance of magical goodies, easily available resurrection and astronomical disparity between high and low level creatures it's pretty much hard coded into the system.

QuoteHowever, again, just having characters be special isn't enough for the Nephilim Law - go back to the OP and reread it. What I'm talking about isn't games where all the characters are Special, but games where all the characters are Special and only Special people really matter, and that normal human beings are essentially disposable, or exist only to give (for example) the vampires something to feed on.

Humanity isn't portrayed merely as a resource in Vampire. Most incarnations of the game stressed the maintenance of mortal relationships as one of the ways of not succumbing to the beast. Indeed, a lot of themes of the game were related to retaining one's human outlook, punishing the wantonly depraved and amoral reaction to the vampiric condition with insanity and eventual non-playability.

QuoteEDIT TO ADD: Spiderman is actually a good example here: while Spidey has abilities that eclipse mere mortals, he still deeply cares about the people around him. I'm not sure I get the same vibe from Exalted.

Characters in Exalted can become world saviours, tyrannical despots or anything in between. It's wide open as far in-play morality is concerned. The only obvious obstacle to this is the Great Curse, which challenges the Exalted not to act in conflict with their virtues.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI remember someone saying that Players tend to be very good at figuring out how the GMs world really works, rather than they way the GM wished it worked.

NPCs tend to fall in to easily recognisable roles like Patron, Target and Other.

Not sure theres anything you can do about them (correctly) tagging the Others as not being relevant.

I suppose that's part of it, but I'm more comfortable with games where the players say "the Others aren't really relevant or important, so let's leave them alone" than games where the players say "the Others aren't really relevant or important, so let's treat them like cattle". I would argue that many modern-day occult games lapse into the latter attitude, despite efforts to the contrary - even though (as Drew points out) Vampire tries to stress relationship with mortals, I've seen plenty Vampire PCs over the years who care deeply about those few human beings they've invested in relationships with while treating unimportant human beings like walking sacks of food.

Nephilim, which gives its name to the law, is especially grating in this regard. Some human beings band together in secret societies to oppose or aid the Nephilim, and they are useful. Other human beings are inconvenient idiots who don't know the way things Really Work at worst, potential vessels for the PCs at best. Either way, the value of human beings in the cosmology of Nephilim is based entirely on their relationship to the Nephilim.

Quote from: DrewPlenty of people start out play with higher level characters. Plenty of systems emphasise the special nature of PC's. D&D does this with the division between adventuring and non-adventuring classes. It may not be as explicit as some, but with an abundance of magical goodies, easily available resurrection and astronomical disparity between high and low level creatures it's pretty much hard coded into the system.

But those high level characters are still human beings. D&D acknowledges that human beings have at least the potential to become great heroes. You don't need to be bitten by a Vampire or become an Exalted to become an ass-kicking wizard or thief in D&D; even if you start play as a high-level dude, it's still normally assumed that your character has got there through grit and hard work. PCs are special and NPCs are not-so-special, true, but that's not what the Nephilim law is about.

QuoteBut those high level characters are still human beings.

Well, thats an ideological difference rather than a practical difference.

DnD PCs are special in a way Traveller PCs (with traveller and Star Wars* being more or less the only Normal People games I've played much -. Maybe CoC, but that tends to be one shots, where group cohesion isn't as much of an issue) arn't.

A tenth leveller is still gonna know he's Significant, while the Commoners arn't.

And ideology is always gonna loose out to practicality in the long run - how many times have you gone from 'are you skilled in lockpicking?' through 'if you had to rate your chances of picking this lock on a scale of one to one hundred, where would you put yourself?' to 'What's your lockpicking skill again?'

Similarly - 'look, is this guy just an extra or is he improtant? I wanna get on with the adventure.' Or the use of txt speak in MMORPGs - its more practical for the situation, and you need to convey specialised information like Do you have any buffs? etc. quickly, so you get jargon filled lols rather than long winded purple fantasy prose.

*this was Pre Jedi, if you take my meaning. D6 instead of D20, almost.

Quote from: WarthurBut those high level characters are still human beings. D&D acknowledges that human beings have at least the potential to become great heroes. You don't need to be bitten by a Vampire or become an Exalted to become an ass-kicking wizard or thief in D&D; even if you start play as a high-level dude, it's still normally assumed that your character has got there through grit and hard work. PCs are special and NPCs are not-so-special, true, but that's not what the Nephilim law is about.

Human they may be in name, but D&D posits a world where a person can become a demigod-equivalent in relatively short time. The result is pretty much the same.

It's also worth noting that mortals receive their Celestial Exaltation as a result of defining themselves heroically in life. A peerless warrior may become a Dawn Caste, or the worlds greatest mortal sage may become a Twilight. The game assumes your character has already done what was necessary to attract the attention of the Gods, and your story begins after the divine spark has attached itself to your soul. The Exaltations are not predestined, nor do they select random people off the street.

In other words you start at 10th level.

Similar things could be said about Vampire, given that a sire will usually select someone to embrace on the basis of their aptitude and abilities intersecting with with his long term goals. It's nowhere near as pronounced as in Exalted, though.

Just to address the original post here, I purely use it as a setting element and it goes either way in my games. Shades of Earth and Roma Imperious have humans as the only viable choice. They are the top of the chain. Shades is a modern (1938) occult game. However with Nebuleon and Tales of Gaea, humans are the bottom of the barrel. More so in Nebuleon. The reason? I wanted to make the Humans, as a whole, the underdog. They can compete (all humans, mechanically, are unmodified in terms of their stats) but do not have some of the advantages of other races. They also do not have some of the disadvantages. For me, it is just a way of molding the setting.

As to Vampire, yeah, I never understood how you could have a happy ending with Hinters. I am talking plain jane humans who decide they have a death wish and go after the Vampire with half a dozen ghouls. Ow.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltJust to address the original post here, I purely use it as a setting element and it goes either way in my games. Shades of Earth and Roma Imperious have humans as the only viable choice. They are the top of the chain. Shades is a modern (1938) occult game. However with Nebuleon and Tales of Gaea, humans are the bottom of the barrel. More so in Nebuleon. The reason? I wanted to make the Humans, as a whole, the underdog. They can compete (all humans, mechanically, are unmodified in terms of their stats) but do not have some of the advantages of other races. They also do not have some of the disadvantages. For me, it is just a way of molding the setting.

Absoloutely. For some games it's appropriate, for others less so. It's how someone could correlate power disparity and dramatic significance with "anti-humanism" that surprises me.

Quote from: DrewAbsoloutely. For some games it's appropriate, for others less so. It's how someone could correlate power disparity and dramatic significance with "anti-humanism" that surprises me.

For me I get the creeps off of Vampire from the whole "we are the predators, regular folks are the prey" vibe.  In the games I usually play those predators are the bad guys for a reason.

Quote from: jrientsFor me I get the creeps off of Vampire from the whole "we are the predators, regular folks are the prey" vibe.  In the games I usually play those predators are the bad guys for a reason.

So you've never played a Chaotic Evil character?

Seriously, though, it's like I said earlier. In the default OWoD Vampire you'd quickly find your humanity and sanity evaporating if you acted like a ravening predator all the time. Once your Humanity trait hits zero you're removed from play. The in-game benfits for not giving in to the beast are pretty significant, too.

Oh the troubles of being a parasite...:rolleyes:

The joys of playing a parasitc entity that is not in any way productive or forward looking is totally alien to me.
That is, I can play it once in a while, as an NPC preferrably.

But not a campaign.

Quote from: SettembriniOh the troubles of being a parasite...:rolleyes:

The joys of playing a parasitc entity that is not in any way productive or forward looking is totally alien to me.
That is, I can play it once in a while, as an NPC preferrably.

But not a campaign.

It's not my cup of tea, either. It's just that there's a lot of misrepresentation flying about on this site regarding WW's games, so I thought I'd chime in and clarify a few things.

Quote from: jrientsFor me I get the creeps off of Vampire from the whole "we are the predators, regular folks are the prey" vibe.  In the games I usually play those predators are the bad guys for a reason.

Everyone likes to feel special.

Some get giggles from playing dark brooding predators, others* from thinking they are more PC than the great unwashed, but its all about self image.

*ie you right. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being to subtle here. Often best online just to use a sledgehammer.