If you're familiar with Amber, the characters of Amber (the Amberites) are not beyond humanity, they are the REAL humans, the fucking Platonic Ideals of what humanity is all about.

And it shows: they are one big dysfunctional family, filled with all the human goodness and badness you can think of. Unlike in White Wolf's games, in Amber the PCs don't spend their time prancing about reveling in their lack of humanity, they are fucking mud and guts humans to the nth degree.

As for my Amber campaign being "highlander" themed, it was a convenience that allowed me to run a campaign with the same characters through 500 years of history, mostly.  Plus, the "highlander-immortals", for all of their "blood of kings" nonsense, really aren't that much more powerful than a normal human being, they just don't die as easily.  They live and interact with humans, in secret among them, and generally don't look down on them (or if they do, its only the EVIL immortals who tend to).  Most of them, including my PCs in the game, get very much involved with all the mortal humans around them, taking them as friends, confidants, leaders, lovers, children, teachers, etc etc.  Its not an excuse to avoid being human, its just a handy excuse to let you live for a really long time.

RPGPundit

From the Exalted Players guide:

QuoteThese individuals (humans) have little narrative importance in the fable of history... their destiny's place in the web of history makes significant accomplishments unlikely. It is unfair, but that is the way of things.

Quote(Heroic Mortals) are more important to the story of history (than normal humans). From the perspective of a mortal human, they are blessed - less than exalted, but more than merely mortal.

So even the "heroic mortal" humans aren't really just normal people. No, the normal people MUST BE DIRT; so if any human dares to do something special, he must be somewhat more than just a regular human.

On Page 12 of this book, this is explicitly stated and defended by the author, in a box entitled "I have moral objections":

QuoteSomeone, somewhere is even now saying that its terrible some people in Creation are inherently better than others. The reasons for this are twofold.
The first reason is that they're just mechanically less important...
The second reason is that they're not really facing these inequities at all. These are, in fact, fictional people facing fictional inequalities in an entirely fictional world.

In the middle of the part I quoted, the Author also admits that its pretty normal for regular mortals to be treated like shit by Exalteds. But, and here's the neat part:

QuoteThe Immaculate Philosophy dictates that those with power strive to protect and govern these individuals (humans) precisely because they are wholly human and mortal.

So in other words, the essential philosophy of Exalted is that of all WW's products, a small superpowered elite have an inherent right to RULE over humanity, because they're special snowflakes, and normal humanity really can't be expected to govern over itself, right? I mean, they're DIRT.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo in other words, the essential philosophy of Exalted is that of all WW's products, a small superpowered elite have an inherent right to RULE over humanity, because they're special snowflakes, and normal humanity really can't be expected to govern over itself, right? I mean, they're DIRT.

Eh, it should probably be pointed out that the philosophy of the Immaculate Order isn't "the essential philosophy of Exalted". Rather, for all its importance for keeping order, it's a piece of Dragon-Blooded propaganda which specifically commands the people of the Realm to resist the default PCs.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo in other words, the essential philosophy of Exalted is that of all WW's products, a small superpowered elite have an inherent right to RULE over humanity, because they're special snowflakes, and normal humanity really can't be expected to govern over itself, right? I mean, they're DIRT.

Nope, that isn't it at all.

Exalted's philosophy (if it can be said to have one) is that the powerful have it within their means to rule over others, but it is through choice rather than divine mandate whether they exercise this. Some will be tyrants, others will be benign, and plenty of Exalted of all stripes will enter the service of beings less powerful than themselves. Many Exalted act to help, nurture and provide for humanity. Much like Superman, in fact.

The Immaculate Philosophy you referred to in the quote is actually a fictitious religion invented by the Sidereals to bolster the power of the Scarlet Empire. Paradoxically the mortals who live under it are some of the longest lived, best nourished and spiritually content people in Creation. It's not a black and white world, no matter how much you want to paint it as such.

Quote from: GrimGentEh, it should probably be pointed out that the philosophy of the Immaculate Order isn't "the essential philosophy of Exalted". Rather, for all its importance for keeping order, it's a piece of Dragon-Blooded propaganda which specifically commands the people of the Realm to resist the default PCs.

Yup, it's another layer of conflict you can add to your campaign.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you're familiar with Amber, the characters of Amber (the Amberites) are not beyond humanity, they are the REAL humans, the fucking Platonic Ideals of what humanity is all about.

As I recall the books, they're all white folk, too.  Except for Moire, who was just green-colored white folk.  What are you saying here, Pundy?

!i!

Yes, I'm familiar with the Amber novels and game.

Yes or no, in the Amber RPG, it is assumed you are born into a circle of people -- the Amberites -- who are clearly superior to the majority of any other sentient being?

Yes or no, it is also the case in the Amber RPG that the Amberites tend to look down upon those other sentient beings?

To be honest, I'd rather you didn't answer those questions because I know you're smart enough to weasel your way out of them.  Besides, I agree with the OP: the Human+ inherent in all oWod and most nWoD games (the core game does in fact support a solid, mortals-only style of play) can get pretty stupid.  Adventure! and Hunter immediately comes to mind as the two worst offences.  But WW's target audience is pretty clearly the adolescent-young adult market who eat this shit up like candy.  Hell, I was one of them -- I was even a big time X-Men fan to boot so I speak from experience!

Stripping out the fluff and speaking in mechanical terms, I think what WW has done was to give the players a few more toys to play with at the start of their games.  D&D has even embraced this as well -- look at the differences among 1st level characters across all the editions.  3.5 1st level are much more powerful than their other edition counterparts.  Obviously the trappings are completely different: D&D you're still human(oid) whereas WW you're Human+ and I think this is where all the static originates from.

It's not that I hate games where you play Human+ characters.  I cut my teeth playing FASERIP Marvel as a teenager.  If you want to play a Vampire or a Mage, there's no getting around it.  My big complaint with WW is why does every game have to be Human+?

As to the OP's other point, oWoD games being anti-human, I think Vampire and Werewolf in particular, have a strong anti-human vibe; the former with human as chattel and the latter with human as nemesis.  Other games like Mage, Changeling and Exalted leave it more open to interpretation.  I think you can make the case of Wraith being the most pro-human out of the oWoD bunch.  But at this point it's obvious you're never going to give anything WW the benefit of the doubt whereas you give a more charitable reading to Amber and superheroes.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAs I recall the books, they're all white folk, too.  Except for Moire, who was just green-colored white folk.  What are you saying here, Pundy?

!i!

This is a direction the thread doesn't need to go towards.  I vehemently disagree with Pundit on almost all accounts on this thread's topics, but I do understand what he's trying to say and I'm sure he didn't mean anything racist about it.

Quote from: MoriartyThis is a direction the thread doesn't need to go towards.

I absolutely agree with you, in large part because I don't believe either Roger Zelazny or Erick Wujcik intended the novels or game as a racist platform.  But if I were playing the role of the disingenuous Internet bully, I could purposefully ignore all that, selectively edit, and just plain make shit up to make that claim and beat Pundy over the head with it in exactly the manner that he's gone off about Exalted's treatment of the common man.

!i!

I've been reading this thread and it has been pretty entertaining, but an underlying question hasn't been asked.

Why is a game that doesn't have normal people as its mainstay bad? It's a roleplaying game, right? So it shouldn't have much effect outside of the imaginary game world, right? If it is bad, then why? Do games that are not humanocentric generate negative behaviors in their players? (Be careful in answering that one, its loaded for bear.)

Quote from: jeff37923I've been reading this thread and it has been pretty entertaining, but an underlying question hasn't been asked.

Why is a game that doesn't have normal people as its mainstay bad? It's a roleplaying game, right? So it shouldn't have much effect outside of the imaginary game world, right? If it is bad, then why? Do games that are not humanocentric generate negative behaviors in their players? (Be careful in answering that one, its loaded for bear.)

Well, see, last I checked I'm still a human being, and I don't possess any sense of self-hatred surrounding that.  I grew out of my "maybe I'm really an alien" phase a long time ago, and I've no intention of revisiting it.

So, me being human and all, when a game starts laying on thick the "humans suck" vibe, it rather turns me off.  

We're all of us human, despite some determination on the part of some wierd fuckers out there to try and believe they're not, and I'm inclined to think we should make the best of it, rather than wallowing in self pity and hatred.

Quote from: jeff37923I've been reading this thread and it has been pretty entertaining, but an underlying question hasn't been asked.

Why is a game that doesn't have normal people as its mainstay bad? It's a roleplaying game, right? So it shouldn't have much effect outside of the imaginary game world, right? If it is bad, then why? Do games that are not humanocentric generate negative behaviors in their players? (Be careful in answering that one, its loaded for bear.)

See, the reason that question hasn't been answered so far is because everything down to the thread title assumes playing super-human, post-human, ubermensch, or any other flavor of "like a human, but with 1337 skills and kewl powerz" is bad and that you must "hate humanity" to play such games.

I said I liked playing stuff more and less and other than human and... because there's no way of arguing taste... I just got called a furry.

The only way of arguing the pros and cons of these playstyles seems to be to make this one thing bad so that one side can deny indulging in it and the other side can make lame ass arguments that they do.

Or to derail the discussion onto "Atlas Shrugged." Which was terrible.

In any case, the minute people realize that there's just no accounting for taste, this thread will die. Until they forget again and post another like it. Such is the internet.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, me being human and all, when a game starts laying on thick the "humans suck" vibe, it rather turns me off.  

See, I don't see "humans suck" happening. Probably because, in most cases, it doesn't.

Quote from: beejazzSee, I don't see "humans suck" happening. Probably because, in most cases, it doesn't.

Just because you don't care to see something doesn't mean it isn't there.  I'd go so far as to suggest that your previously discussed attitude towards the subject is inclined to make such things easily go unnoticed, because they don't clash with your own beliefs they way they might with mine, for example.

Quote from: WerekoalaI've read the First Edition core book and essentially that's it in a nutshell.

From what I've heard about Second Edition, this is essentially done away with, at least for Solars. While the Dragon-Blooded are born into their roles of power, wealth, and privilege, the would-be Solar has a grand ambition or a motivation to reshape the world, and is thus Exalted via the standard channels.

I'm sure there's still something people can scream about in there, but Exalted appears to have largely lost the "random schmuck gets the power-up" concept.