Your own fucking quote implies that Exalteds are chosen more for their "potential" than for their actual accomplishment.

You know, like the annoying pretentious little college snot who writes bad poetry or throws paint on a canvas and then accuses "society" of not recognizing his "potential", and is sure he would be a superstar if only "the universe" were to allow him to be by granting him instant power and fame?

That's Exalted's target market right there, fucker.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYour own fucking quote implies that Exalteds are chosen more for their "potential" than for their actual accomplishment.

More selective reading.

What part of ...They were Exalted for their skill and their will to use it don't you get?

QuoteYou know, like the annoying pretentious little college snot who writes bad poetry or throws paint on a canvas and then accuses "society" of not recognizing his "potential", and is sure he would be a superstar if only "the universe" were to allow him to be by granting him instant power and fame?

That's Exalted's target market right there, fucker.

So we're back to this again. Shifting the goalposts once you're confronted with direct quotations from the source.

What's the matter, Pundit? I heard you were good at this shit. It's like discovering the BEWARE OF DOG sign refers only to a toothless, mangy cur well into it's dotage.

Or perhaps I should phrase it in the kind of gutter rhetoric you seem so keen on.

Are you still calling me a liar? Yes or No, Fucker.

Solar Exalts only Exalt if they deserve Exaltation. Their patron is the God of sunburns and being awesome. Solars only Exalt if they've got bad tan lines or they're awesome.

If you want to debate 'awesome', go for it, but it's a waste of time. Pretty much, you have to be a Heroic Mortal, which means you've already busted your ass to do better then your peers.

Caveat: not every Heroic Mortal Exalts. I mostly get around this in my games by having people Exalt only when they actually need the power it gives them to fulfill their goals.

Not every Exalt type exalts like this, so the arguement doesn't totally hold up for everyone. Abyssals, for example, get recruited and Sidereals are fated to become Sidereals (somehow. Borgstrom wrote that book, so I don't have any idea what's going on in it).

I'm going to be frank. I change the cosmology of Exalted enough so that when I'm running it, I know for sure that if people work really hard, they can Exalt. They can do it on purpose. Reliably. Bad-asses Exalt.

But it's not like White Wolf has the market on not earning your bad-assitude. In fact, I almost forgive White Wolf its 'sins' in that, for other reasons which I'll get to at some point.

But, for an example, look at D&D. Clerics recive their power from an outside source. One needs to be wise, and believe, but arguably their power comes from an outside agency. That's not power they earned, it's power they're given in order to be a special snowflake. Sorcerers are, according to the flavor text, born into their power. Power they didn't earn. Paladins? Same. And that's just some core books shit. Is D&D swine, now, because they've got Clerics and shit?

You start as a human, but you can play an elf or a dwarf? Special snowflake? Swinedom?

Their are shit tons of non-human entities that can kill your average human adventurer like he's shit. There are a lot of humans, but they're arguably cattle compared to dragons and gods. Swine game?

What about super heros? I've heard more then one rant about how awesome super heros are from you, Pundit, in particular. If someone wants to play Superman or Spiderman, are they a special motherfucking snowflake? Swine? Are superhero games all inherantly Swiny?

Look at Vampire. You don't ask for your stupid-as-shit powers. Some motherfucker bites you and now you can't drink beer anymore. (some reward...) But you still start out as a chump, not a lot better then your average mortal. Your average guy bitten by a vamp isn't going to be able to take out a SWAT trooper. You still have to develop that shit. So, you're working on different parameters, but you're still earning your power.

You just can't wake up at noon anymore, and then go out for coffee and a cig anymore. Which is lame.

You can kill people more effectively, but that's not really a good thing. Arguably, you trade everything that's fun in life for the ability to kill shit better; how this is an arguement that Vampires are awesome is really beyond me. I know a few people that argued this, but I woudn't play the game with them. Motherfuckers were assholes.

Quote from: Thanatos02But, for an example, look at D&D. Clerics recive their power from an outside source. One needs to be wise, and believe, but arguably their power comes from an outside agency. That's not power they earned, it's power they're given in order to be a special snowflake.

No, they earned it. Through years of study, prayer and devotion. Go study to be a Jesuit Priest or a Buddhist Lama and then tell me that its "unearned".

QuoteSorcerers are, according to the flavor text, born into their power. Power they didn't earn.

Yeah, and frankly I hate Sorcerers. Never allowed them in my game.
But that said, the "power" they are born into is a power that only makes them on-par with other humans and what those humans can achieve. They are a little bit spoiled, they get from birth what power others have to work hard to even reach, but then so do the aristocracy. The point is, this power doesn't make them vastly superior to other mortals, much less no longer human.

QuotePaladins? Same. And that's just some core books shit. Is D&D swine, now, because they've got Clerics and shit?

Dude, most people don't want to play Paladins because of all the hard shit you have to do to keep your powers. I can't believed you'd straight-facedly try to use fucking Paladins as an example of not having to work for it!

QuoteTheir are shit tons of non-human entities that can kill your average human adventurer like he's shit. There are a lot of humans, but they're arguably cattle compared to dragons and gods. Swine game?

Humans (and, to be fair, humanoids), regular mortal people, are the central figures of the game. They aren't sheep to be abused by the pretentious elite, they are the PCs and their buddies.

QuoteWhat about super heros? I've heard more then one rant about how awesome super heros are from you, Pundit, in particular. If someone wants to play Superman or Spiderman, are they a special motherfucking snowflake? Swine? Are superhero games all inherantly Swiny?

Let's compared Exalted to superheros, shall we?
On the one hand, I could go with the really easy one: Batman. Batman is uber-cool because he's just a normal person, who by the sweat and blood of his brow and determination has become one of the three most badass entities of the DC pantheon of heros. Everyone is scared of him, even dudes who can blow up planets, but he's just a dude.  You could never do that with exalted, and an Exalted, no matter how powerful, could NEVER be as cool as Batman because the Exalted is only "cool" as far as having his unearned powers are concerned, whereas Batman is cool because he does what he does WITHOUT powers.
But like I said, that's the easy one. Let's go for the hard one: Superman.
On the surface, wouldn't Superman be just like the Exalteds? I mean, Superman didn't EARN his powers, did he? No, he was born unto them, come down from heaven like the son of god, with all his mightily might given to him chalk-free from the rays of the yellow son.
So why do I like Superman but hate Exalted?
Because Superman is a God who comes down to the level of human beings. The moral of the story of Superman is "you have all these incredible powers, but in the end don't EVER forget that what makes you who you are is the fact that you were raised a Kansas farmboy, by parents who loved you, and helped you be a good MAN".
Superman isn't about escaping humanity, its about confirming it. In his identity as Clark Kent, in his love for Lois Lane, in his Smallville roots, in the fact that he's willing to die rather than let one single human life be lost if he can help it.
In Exalted, on the other hand, its loser-humans giving up their Humanity to try to pretend that they're above it all, that they're superior to the unwashed masses, and thinking of them only as fodder to be used or crushed like bugs. Human beings simply do not matter, either in the grand scheme of things or to the Exalteds themselves, because the game is made for players who hate the whole idea of "just" being a Kansas farmboy, who hate the mundanity of humanity, who want to imagine that they are, just by virtue of being themselves, superior to everyone else and deserving of special recognition for the mere fact of their existence, and who certainly don't give a fuck about regular humanity; regular humanity to them are the parents that "misunderstand" them, the bullies that picked on them in school, the girls who never wanted to date them, the teachers who didn't like their bad poetry, all of the society that they cannot find a place to belong in because they're not willing to actually work at belonging.  So they loathe humanity, because deep down they loathe themselves.
Exalted is the exact opposite of superheroes as a genre.

RPGPundit

Quote from: DrewPut it this way: It's conceivable that someone, somewhere has created a 14-year-old combat maxed Solar as a starting character. It's also possible that the character is capable of defeating huge numbers of mortal foes out of the box. Where you demonstrate your repetitive ignorance is with the utterly unsupported idea that said little girl was an ineffectual nobody who did nothing in her mortal life to earn the potential of Exaltation. Before the shard even touches her she will be a powerful, skilled individual in her own right.

Come to think of it, a fourteen-year-old girl who rushes out to fight an army armed with nothing more than a gardening implement because that's all she has at hand is a potential candidate for Exaltation. It wouldn't be the first act of self-sacrifice with that effect.

Quote from: GrimGentCome to think of it, a fourteen-year-old girl who rushes out to fight an army armed with nothing more than a gardening implement because that's all she has at hand is a potential candidate for Exaltation. It wouldn't be the first act of self-sacrifice with that effect.

There certainly is precedent, but unless the books are misrepresenting themselves it's almost certain that she'll be an Heroic Mortal with a shot of defining herself in a glorious, if ultimately futile way. Thousands of mortals die every day in Creation, many of them commiting acts of courage against overwhelming odds. Solar Exaltation seems to demand that not only do they possess the grit and determination to face such odds, but also the ability to use the power that they will be granted by the shard.

According to the Exalted Player's guide, ordinary mortals simply don't matter. You have to already be someone different (with "destiny points") to even get to be a "Heroic Mortal". Again, at every level White Wolf smothers you with the Special Snowflake claptrap.

RPGPundit

QuoteDon't tell me "Neo" isn't the personified pseudo-outcast teenager...

He isn´t.
You, and millions of people didn´t get the movies.

I did.

Neo is a robot. A robot built by robots who want to be human.

He is the first model of a feeling and emoting robot. That´s what the movies are about.

That´s why it´s called the Matrix. It´s the hero: Geppetto 2.0

It´s Pinnochio, but with a much smarter Geppetto

Quote from: RPGPunditAccording to the Exalted Player's guide, ordinary mortals simply don't matter. You have to already be someone different (with "destiny points") to even get to be a "Heroic Mortal". Again, at every level White Wolf smothers you with the Special Snowflake claptrap.

RPGPundit

Any person can buy Destiny right out the gate. It's a background like every thing else in the game, that you can even cultivate.

And all the Superman crap is exactly the fucking same as Exalted. The only difference is that you attribute different shit to Exalted players then you do to Superman ones.

In short, dude, you are making shit up and using that to attack the game. Which means you are wrong.

The core premise of Exalted is that you're human, just more so. You all started out as dirt farmers or aristocrats or slaves, and Exaltation doesn't pick by class, it picks by how awesome you are. In that case, it's more elegantarian then Superman or most superheros, because you have to earn it.

As for D&D, sure, Clerics work hard for their faith but anyone can be faithful. You have to be born with Wisdom you didn't earn (so you're a special snowflake whos inherantly wiser and therefore more deserving(?) then the rest of the faithful, no matter how hard they believe) and you granted power by a god. Doesn't matter how hard a Buddhist monk works to enlighten themselves in real life; devine magic is a product of a greater power deciding he wants you to have it.

And I'm sorry you don't like Sorcerers. But you not allowing them in your games doesn't change the fact that they're right there on the page.

Once you get a level in Commoner, that's it. You'll never be as good as someone who started as another type of PC. That's it. You're one notch lower forever. Swine, or not?

Again, not. Again, you miss the fundamental difference: In D&D, PCs are a part of humanity. In Exalted, they're "above" humanity, they see humanity as something worthless that they've gladly left behind.  They're not "superhuman" like Superman is, or like D&D high-level beings are; they're gladly and happily post-human.  Its a chance for swine to lord it over humanity in their fantasies like they can never do in reality.

There's no way you can win this argument, because in the end that's the fundamental truth of all of WW's games.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIn Exalted, they're "above" humanity, they see humanity as something worthless that they've gladly left behind.

Never in all of the Exalted books that I've read is this stated or implied.  Your stating so is either a misconception on your part or a disingenuity.  So which is it, Pundy?  Are you ignorant, or a liar?

!i!

Pundit, would you mind explaining to us in the Peanut Gallerey then why oh why does Amber have its own fucking forum then?  I mean for fucks sake:

- God like beings who are born into a circle of exclusives
- A Humanity that may not even fucking EXIST, depending on one's interpretation, much less being treated like chattel.

Add to this your Roman campaign that was a goddamned Highlander-alike...what gives?

Quote from: MoriartyPundit, would you mind explaining to us in the Peanut Gallerey then why oh why does Amber have its own fucking forum then?

Because, as he explicitly stated when I once pressed him on the matter, in this little world that he's created for himself and his personal style of gaming, he's granted it the equivalent of a Papal Dispensation.  You see, in The Great War, it's important not only to like the same games that Pundy does, but to like them for the same reasons.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNever in all of the Exalted books that I've read is this stated or implied.  Your stating so is either a misconception on your part or a disingenuity.  So which is it, Pundy?  Are you ignorant, or a liar?

!i!

He's practically swimming in a sea of misconception, and has been shown as knowing next to nothing about how the game works.

You could provide him with quotes, but I've found it's just a waste of time. His rampant ego will never, ever permit him to accept being wrong publicly, so all he'll do is switch tracks in the desperate hope of clawing back some small shred of credibility. If you're lucky he'll even accuse you of lying in order to sustain his impoverished viewpoint.

It's fucking pathetic.