Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIs this from the 1st edition?  I may be mis-recollecting, then.  Also, yes, I always found Dace my touchstone to the game. :deflated:

Yep, they're all 1E signature characters.

QuoteNow, this is a funny turn to the topic.  I mentioned it earlier in the thread: I prefer Batman and Green Arrow to Superman or Captain America.  Batman and Green Arrow reached a point in their lives where they decided to become heroes and proceeded to perfect themselves to the best of their ability.  Superman and Captain America both had an outside event happen to them, and then had to decide how to use the resultant abilities to become a hero.  Both are valid hero stories -- one's heroism results from his force of will, while the other's heroism results from wisely harnessing great power and resisting temptation.  I prefer the boot-strap effect, though.

I like all kinds of different stories. Sometimes external empowerment is cool, other times the self-made man works. For most people I know it's such a non-issue as to be almost irrelevant outside of personal preference.

QuoteOne thing that Exalted did well, in my opinion, was pointing out that your shard only gives you great power -- it doesn't make you a hero.  The Solar Exalted really do have the potential to become monsters if the temptation overwhelms them.  In that sense, the game steps away from the precipice of "anti-humanism."

Agreed. Your actions define you as much as in any other game. The only difference with Exalted is that said actions are expected to be big.

Quote from: beejazzI find being human dull, and morality restrictive in a fictional world. Savage species made my day.
.

Yeah, but you're a furry, so big surprise there.

Alexander the Great? Einstein? Shakespeare? Trajan? Not furries.

RPGPundit

Ah, Shakespeare was a closet donkey-furry.

Quote from: DrewCan you point to where it says that, please? Canonically there's only one Solar I can think of who Exalted as a teen.

I mis-remembered...sort of.  Page 107 of the 1st edition, it states: "Almost no Chosen go through their Exaltations before puberty, and a large number don't change until well into their mid-20s."  The implication is an age range between 13 and 25, weighted toward late-teens, maybe early-20s -- the age range of the target audience.  The passage goes on to mention "Exaltation rarely happens after 35, but it has been recorded as late as 60," which helps widen the field a little for those of us grown longer in the tooth.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, but you're a furry, so big surprise there.

Alexander the Great? Einstein? Shakespeare? Trajan? Not furries.

RPGPundit

Furry? Hardly. If not human or fairly similar, mammals aren't my thing. A treant lich, however...

Quote from: RPGPunditYup, and its pathetic.

RPGPundit

Sure, if you just make shit up and assume it's true, you hit the nail right on the head. Dipshit.

Quote from: SosthenesAh, Shakespeare was a closet donkey-furry.

 No - in the play you are referring to  - I think good 'ol Will S. was making fun of Elizabethan-era furries. Just because he had a thing or situation in a play , doesn't mean he endorsed it . After all, he had to insert bits of comedy in almost every play.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityHo-no.

You're not going to make me read Ayn Rand just so I can quote chapter &  verse on how her "philosophy" works both on the individual snowflake level and the group level of Teh Few.

Not happening. My eyes bled, and I don't want them to bleed again.

Try reading Anthem instead of Atlas Shrugged, it is much shorter and has the same message.

Quote from: jeff37923Try reading Anthem instead of Atlas Shrugged, it is much shorter and has the same message.

 BOTH can be good reads if you're in the right mood.
 
Thanks Jeff - that fits my NEW thread better.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarBOTH can be good reads if you're in the right mood.
 
Thanks Jeff - that fits my NEW thread better.

- Ed C.

Sorry, I tried to work my way through the pregnant prose of Atlas Shrugged because my girlfriend at the time pushed it on me, couldn't do it. I still miss her, occassionally, when I'm out of my fucking mind.

Moral of my story, nothing says "I hate you and want you to die" like asking a lover to read Atlas Shrugged.

And now, back to the original subject of the thread.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo you are claiming now, unequivocably, that ALL Exalted are people who have already done great things in the world and thus become Exalted, and the whole idea of a "14-year old farm girl getting exalted and kicking the shit out of an army" just cannot happen in the game, unless said farmgirl say, cured cancer or something?

Go back and reread my posts before trying to spring yet another one of your rusty, rhetorically blunt bear traps. I suspect you won't, because selective reading and deliberate misrepresentation seems to be your modus operandi, but in the hope of actually getting the point through your thick skull I'll do it for you. I'll even highlight the bits you've chosen to ignore...

QuoteIt's also worth noting that mortals receive their Celestial Exaltation as a result of defining themselves heroically in life. A peerless warrior may become a Dawn Caste, or the worlds greatest mortal sage may become a Twilight. The game assumes your character has already done what was necessary to attract the attention of the Gods, and your story begins after the divine spark has attached itself to your soul. The Exaltations are not predestined, nor do they select random people off the street

QuoteIn Vampire that's definitely the case. In Exalted less so. Solar Exaltations seek out those who have or are on the cusp of achieving mortal greatness. The shard carries with it wisps of memory of a former host, but it is not self aware in any conventional sense. It's more a case of attraction to extant ability and potential rather than self-selection.

QuoteLike I've said numerous times, Celestial Exaltations seek out those who are powerful and capable in their own right.

See?

QuoteIs that what you're saying, bitch?

Please. Smack talk from someone like you on this subject is painfully embarassing for both of us.

QuoteBecause everything I've ever seen on RPG.net and my own reading (years ago) of the Exalted main book seem to disagree completely with that claim. People weren't chosen to be Exalteds because they'd done some great service to humanity or some great thing, they were chosen just because they were "meant for" it, they were special snowflakes, in other words...

Once again you've filtered the words of RPGnet fandom through your own, rampant anti-White Wolf prejudice. There's plenty of points here you could be making, but you simply lack the knowledge to do so. I've left some wide open gaps that could be exploited by anyone with even a half-arsed knowledge of system, just to see if you had the requisite understanding.

You haven't because you can't. Case closed.

Oh for fuck's sake, here we go again! :rolleyes:
Why the fuck can't the Swine ever answer a straight question: "ALL Exalted are people who have already done great things in the world and thus become Exalted"; YES OR NO, FUCKER?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOh for fuck's sake, here we go again! :rolleyes:
Why the fuck can't the Swine ever answer a straight question: "ALL Exalted are people who have already done great things in the world and thus become Exalted"; YES OR NO, FUCKER?

I'm not sure what's more sad, you trying to mischaracterize my position with yet another one of your blatant yes/no ploys, or your dogged attempts to shift the emphasis of the argument once you realise you're wrong. Isn't it horrible when people don't fit into those neat little boxes you keep making for them?

OK, fool, I'll give this one more shot. I'll even answer your question, although not quite in the way you'd like.

So there's no confusion, let's remind ourslves of exactly where you're coming from here:

Quote from: RPGPunditFrom what little I've read and understood about Exalted, that doesn't seem to be true. There's shitloads of exalteds out there who were nobodies until they suddenly became the Great Pasty-Faced Master Who Blows Up Cities.

Hence that famous quip in someone's .sig about it being really embarrassing having your entire army being massacred by a 14 year old farmgirl with a hoe who's just exalted and declared herself the Invincible Spear Princess or some shit like that...

Quote from: RPGPunditBecause everything I've ever seen on RPG.net and my own reading (years ago) of the Exalted main book seem to disagree completely with that claim. People weren't chosen to be Exalteds because they'd done some great service to humanity or some great thing, they were chosen just because they were "meant for" it, they were special snowflakes, in other words...

And in response to my assertions that this was not the case you responded with:

Quote from: RPGPunditSo basically, you're lying to us now.

So lets examine your argument with some textual evidence, shall we?

First off, we'll start with the idea of characters being "nobodies" prior to their Exaltation:

QuoteExalted Second Edition, page 25

Imprisoned and denied reincarnation for centuries, the power of the solar exalted relentlessly seeks out talented and ambitious individuals and starts them out on a meteoric path to prominence and supernatural might.

QuotePage 342

The Solar Exalted come from all walks of life, Chosen by the Unconquered Sun for their supernal skill or dedication. Whether a priest, prince or pauper, anyone who excels at his craft can become a Child of the Sun...

...They were Exalted for their skill and their will to use it.

Time and again, throughout many supplements, the reader is shown Solar Exaltations attaching themselves to powerful, independent mortals who already have skill levels that outstrip their brethren.

The system supports this notion by drawing a sharp distinction between Extras and Heroic Mortals. The former have reduced health levels and abilities that tend to cap around mid-range, of which they will have but few. Heroic Mortals on the other hand have twice as much health as well as many abilities at this level, and a few that rank them amongst the best of non-Exalted in the world. This latter group is the pool that new Solar Exalted are drawn from. The character creation process for Heroic Mortals makes it flat-out impossible for a person who hasn't already defined themselves via superior skill or achievement to Exalt as a Solar.


Now we'll address whether they were "meant for it":  

QuotePage 32

It is important to understand that although the Exaltation from a divinity and is clearly aligned with that god's influence, its maker has no natural control over it. Had this been otherwise, the gods would have merely been ordered by their Primordial overlords to gather the power of the Exalted back up and forced to crush their own uprising. Exaltation is a fire passed to the hands of man, a gift that cannot be taken back, and what the Exalt does after receiving it is governed by his will and vision alone.

The Incarna of Creation don't point the finger at some random schlub and say "Surprise, Cockface! You're special only because you say you are, and here's your reward to prove it!" Instead the divine shard of Exaltation seeks out those who have already proven themselves, or are in the process of doing so. There is no such thing as an undeserving Solar Exalt, the shards simply pass over those who don't possess the requisite skill and ambition to use the power they're granted. Think of established expertise and force of personality as the gravity well that draws the Exaltation in. Of course I'm assuming that you're even thinking at all, and not relying on regurgitated spewage that lost all credibility years ago.


Regarding age:

QuotePage 78

Almost no Chosen go through their Exaltations before puberty, and most change in their mid-20s. Exaltation rarely happens after 35, but it has been recorded as late as 60

So, your argument that an undeserving, run-of-the-mill 14-year-old girl killing an entire army is somehow representative of the setting and system as written is patently false. What people choose to do in their games is their own affair, but basing your judgement on what you clearly indicated was a half-remembered quip in an unnamed RPGnet users sig is painfully indicative of both the shallowness of your understanding and the depth of your vitriol.

Put it this way: It's conceivable that someone, somewhere has created a 14-year-old combat maxed Solar as a starting character. It's also possible that the character is capable of defeating huge numbers of mortal foes out of the box. Where you demonstrate your repetitive ignorance is with the utterly unsupported idea that said little girl was an ineffectual nobody who did nothing in her mortal life to earn the potential of Exaltation. Before the shard even touches her she will be a powerful, skilled individual in her own right. You've taken the quip, which was already exaggerated for humorous effect, and presented it as the foundation of your argument. It's a bitter pill, I know, but you're just going to have to choke it down.

So. Lets see if you have anything substantial to bring to the argument, or are you going to fall back on the old "I read it on RPGnet once" excuse? I find it fucking ironic that a site you spend so much time denigrating with claims of being unrepresentative and false is now your sole source of 'factual' information regarding Exalted. Still, it seems that hypocrisy and yourself are old bedfellows, so I shouldn't be in the least bit surprised.

Face it, Pundit. You've lost this one badly. Either retract your accusation of lying or provide some textual support for your point. If you can't do either then at least have the balls to own up to your mistake and admit you're wrong.

QuoteI'm not sure what's more sad, you trying to mischaracterize my position with yet another one of your blatant yes/no ploys, or your dogged attempts to shift the emphasis of the argument once you realise you're wrong. Isn't it horrible when people don't fit into those neat little boxes you keep making for them?

A man after my own heart.

Except for that whole "liking Exalted" thing.  For that, we must fight with knives.  

Quote from: J ArcaneA man after my own heart.

Except for that whole "liking Exalted" thing.  For that, we must fight with knives.  

Hey, I've no problem with people disliking Exalted. I've plenty of problems with it myself.

What does stick in the craw is being called a liar by someone who hasn't even bothered to check his assumptions.

And I hope you don't mind if I bring a chainsaw to that fight. I find it settles disputes much more to my satisfaction.