TheRPGSite

(not quite industry, more gamer culture)

I read this  bit where Roger Ebert waxes about his SF fandom days.

http://asimovs.com/_issue_0501/thoughtexperiments.shtml (http://asimovs.com/_issue_0501/thoughtexperiments.shtml)

He describes fans  of the 50's and 60's as part of an underground culture with their own publications, lingo, and big names in the little pond.  The culture was secret not in the sense of a subversive conspiracy, but more like most other people wouldn't understand enough to care and a secret kept to avoid getting beat up or mocked.

Are gamers a subculture in a similar sense?  We have our own humor, lingo, gatherings, and publications.  We even have self appointed marshals who try to police who is allowed in the group.  OOTS is funny only to gamers, and only a subportion at that (i.e. D20 players).  Membership is sometimes secret.  It's not like gamers have some big agenda, but how many of you are reluctant to admit that you're a gamer to coworkers and casual acquantances?

I'm not trying to make a big deal or apply for a grant to study it or anything, just making an observation.  I think geekdom is now full of pocket cultures, each based around a particular activity or fandom:  webcomics, fanficcers, Star Wars, etc.  

Some of the most vicious attacks on a given group come from rival groups.  References from the outside world are generally very clumsy and brief, like scenes of playing D&D in munchkin outfits.  I don't know why this is, some sort of competition for members maybe, or maybe it's worse to have seen the light but then be a bit wrong than to have never seen the light.  But the same sort of behavior is common in other parts of society; during the Reformation, protestant groups attacked each other at least at viciously as they were attacked by Catholics.

I dunno, just interesting how humanity continually forms little pockets that enforce their own conformity.

There are a group of people, the would-be "elitists" who would very much like to consider RPG gaming a "subculture" and intentionally try to push it in that direction, to claim their title of "elite".  So the talk about the "gaming community" as if it was a brotherhood of like-minded people who are united in their difference and opposition from the mainstream, they try to create jargon and lingo that makes it harder for new people to get into gaming (gaming theory amounts to that, basically), and generally try their fucking hardest to force gaming away from the mainstream.  Justifying this with bullshit, incidentally, about how gamers are "special", "smarter than normal people", "artists", what-have-you.

Making a "Subculture" out of a hobby does that hobby no good.  In fact, more often then not it KILLS that hobby as the people who do not want to be part of the "different elite" either leave or are FORCED OUT by the "elite", and those who join from then on are people who don't join out of interest in the hobby but rather out of interest in the incestuous little monstrosity of a society that has formed around the "subculture" of the hobby.

That's why I oppose that sort of bullshit at every turn.

RPGPundit

Where's a "Not this crap again" macro when I need one?

Go grind your axe somewhere else.  I was merely curious how analogous gamers of today are to SF fans of 40 years ago.

There's nothing elitist about the concept of subcultures, and I specifically stated that it was a subculture without an agenda.   If a group behaves differently than the mainstream and preferentially interacts within that group, it's a subculture.  

But I did mention you indirectly when I mentioned self appointed marshals.  You bitch more about bad gamers than anyone else around here.

There is a gamer subculture whether we like it or not, although the prevalence of video gaming has made roleplaying in general seem more mainstream.

Quote from: NicephorusWhere's a "Not this crap again" macro when I need one?

You need but ask...

Quote from: RPGPunditSo the talk about the "gaming community" as if it was a brotherhood of like-minded people who are united in their difference and opposition from the mainstream, they try to create jargon and lingo that makes it harder for new people to get into gaming (gaming theory amounts to that, basically), and generally try their fucking hardest to force gaming away from the mainstream.

I don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

For better or worse, the mainstream perception of gamers comes from the belief that D&D means role playing in general -and rightly or wrongly the stereotype of the gamer comes from this belief. I could be wrong, but it really seems that way .

I do believe that gamers have a subculture element, I just put this down to different folks liking different things and leave it at that. I could be wrong though. I have never been to any conventions (esp in the US) and most if not all my info about gamers from beyond my country comes from forums like these, so my opinion may not really count :)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

Well, let me be clear here; I wasn't specifically talking about Forge/Theory types, though of course they are an extreme example of the problem.

I was talking about everyone in general who looks at RPGs as something more than just a game you play sometimes.  

I mean, I play a lot of backgammon too, but does that mean I'm part of the "Backgammon Community" or the "Backgammon subculture"??

As soon as you suggest that the involvement has to be something more than just hobby/incidental, you are shutting the door in the face of all the people who might enjoy casual play of RPGs the same way they'd casually play monopoly or Axis & Allies. You are saying "You have to be HARDCORE to play this, if you aren't willing to be you don't belong here".  Its stupid; its willfully turning yourself into a minority pursuit.

It is in all of our best interest to view and thus promote RPGs as fun games that anyone can play, even just casually, rather than something that has to consume a sizeable chunk of one's existence to be "enjoyed".

But lets face it, for too many people in the hobby, RPGs are too important a part of their lives.  They put a psychological/existencial investment in them that are disproportionate to their actual relevance in one's life, or to what is healthy for a human being.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI was talking about everyone in general who looks at RPGs as something more than just a game you play sometimes.

Man, The World Cup, is almost upon us, so football fever is in the air. The hard core supporters are out in full force. To them it's more then just a game. I doubt their zeal has stopped anyone from enjoying the game in any substantial manner...but yeah, sometimes they are a problem. (And I'm not talking about the hooligans, who are a whole different kettle of fish)

But I think with gamers, the vast majority view it as just a game, they of course devote differents amounts of time but on the whole, they get it for what it is.

QuoteI mean, I play a lot of backgammon too, but does that mean I'm part of the "Backgammon Community" or the "Backgammon subculture"??

I think gaming is a bit different. There are a whole lot of other interest - scifi/fantasy/books/movies that converge in the hobby. So I guess there is a hell of a lot more stuff in common to build on then just gaming, which is probably why the subculture exist, if at all.

QuoteAs soon as you suggest that the involvement has to be something more than just hobby/incidental, you are shutting the door in the face of all the people who might enjoy casual play of RPGs the same way they'd casually play monopoly or Axis & Allies. You are saying "You have to be HARDCORE to play this, if you aren't willing to be you don't belong here".  Its stupid; its willfully turning yourself into a minority pursuit.

Okay, there are the nut jobs. But surely what you describe is not the norm. One of the main problems I find with gamers is that in their enthusiasm they sometimes overwhelm the newcomers to the hobby, with arcana, that should be learnt at a more leisurely pace :)

I mean most gamers are pretty inclusive as to how people play rpgs - sure they tend to gravitate towards those who share the same passion for the game as them, but thats cool. Different people enjoy the game in different ways.

QuoteIt is in all of our best interest to view and thus promote RPGs as fun games that anyone can play, even just casually, rather than something that has to consume a sizeable chunk of one's existence to be "enjoyed".

Sure. But like I said, all people have different ways they identify with the game. For some this takes up most of their time, and if they are not neglecting other aspects of their lives - good for them. I'm sure all hobbies have their "Kurtzs" but most gamers are ok on the mental health scale - and don't anyone post a link to rpgnet's "fucked up gamer thread" :D

My response is based on lurking on various forums - so take it with a pinch of salt. I could be way off with regards to what the majority of gamers are really like :) (and yeah, I am aware that not all gamers post on forums)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, let me be clear here;*snip*

But almost every bigger hobby has something like a subculture that builds around it, doesn't it? And all of these hobbies have people that take it and their involvement in it to far. And all of these hobbies have people, that don't partake in the subculture and just enjoy it casually, sometimes along with those more "hardcore".

I'm, as a person, quite involved with my hobby, unhealthily so, perhaps. I visit lots of gaming sites, spend a lot of time on messageboards, own lots and lots of books, spend much time thinking about it. I'm part of the subculture, you could say. But in the five years or so I've been playing, there have always been casual players in my groups, that didn't care much about the whole thing and knew shit about the rules. Sometimes I'm put of by their lack of engagment, or they are somewhat put of by my amount of engagement, but in the end we are just meeting to have fun with a hobby.

It's just like with every other hobby. You've got these people that play golf once in a while just casually and pro-golfers. You've got magic players that get one deck in years and totally obsessive pro-players. You've got people that play a videogame once in a while and people that do nothing but play videogames.

Another examples is that there's a very active hip-hop subculture in germany. I like the music, but I'm by no means involved in it.

"Casualists" and "Subculturalists" can easily co-exist, so I don't see your problem (but considering how often you bring it up I'm sure someone else already told you that).

Thing is, you complain of people that want to make RPG's special. But by having a subculture it is explicitly not special, it would be special if it was the way you want it to be (expect for those people that are so obsessive about it, for them it will always be special, just like hip-hop is special for an avid hip-hopper and soccer is special for the many soccer fans here in germany)

Quote from: David RI don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

For better or worse, the mainstream perception of gamers comes from the belief that D&D means role playing in general -and rightly or wrongly the stereotype of the gamer comes from this belief. I could be wrong, but it really seems that way .

I do believe that gamers have a subculture element, I just put this down to different folks liking different things and leave it at that. I could be wrong though. I have never been to any conventions (esp in the US) and most if not all my info about gamers from beyond my country comes from forums like these, so my opinion may not really count :)

Regards,
David R

As a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF. You think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

If you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one. I was into athletics - baseball, football, and weightlifting - and sang and played guitar in a rock band. The fact that I loved SF was utterly immaterial to anyone. Everyone knew it, and no-one cared. I had a lot of non-geek friends that loved SF, and, later on, who loved roleplaying - RPing wasn't invented yet.

Bah, and humbug!

-mice

Quote from: flyingmiceAs a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF. You think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

If you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one. I was into athletics - baseball, football, and weightlifting - and sang and played guitar in a rock band. The fact that I loved SF was utterly immaterial to anyone. Everyone knew it, and no-one cared. I had a lot of non-geek friends that loved SF, and, later on, who loved roleplaying - RPing wasn't invented yet.

Bah, and humbug!

-mice

Ya know, you're right, in a way. While I'm a far throw appart from the time and never went to american highschool, I was the guy who got the (mostly mental) abuse. And the reason was, in the end, me and my behavior. Only once I got a grip of myself others payed me any kind of respect, but then it didn't really matter what my hobby was or somesuch.

However, the whole point doesn't invalidate the question of a subculture.

Quote from: flyingmiceWake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it.

Don't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

QuoteThese folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

Apparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.(I'm talking about gaming here, but I'm sure other hobbies have their various internal divisions) But this really is a different subject :)

QuoteIf you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one.

Sure. But...

QuoteBah, and humbug!

...I reread my post, and I don't see how anything I wrote, could have sparked of these comments. I was talking about about the possibility of gaming as a subculture. :shrug: Guess it came across as something entirely different. Apologies if it this is the case.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: goldYa know, you're right, in a way. While I'm a far throw appart from the time and never went to american highschool, I was the guy who got the (mostly mental) abuse. And the reason was, in the end, me and my behavior. Only once I got a grip of myself others payed me any kind of respect, but then it didn't really matter what my hobby was or somesuch.

However, the whole point doesn't invalidate the question of a subculture.

True enough. I just get really worked up when people trot out the stereotypes. It doesn't fit me, and it doesn't fit most of the roleplayers I know.

-mice

Quote from: David RDon't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

Perhaps that's true, but most of the "losers" I see made that decision for themselves long ago, and many are just as bad in their passive-aggressive way as the bullies are in theirs. A lot of them grow out of it, just like a lot of bullies grow out of their jerkitude, but not all.

Quote from: David RApparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.(I'm talking about gaming here, but I'm sure other hobbies have their various internal divisions) But this really is a different subject :)

Agreed, There are jerks in every group of sufficint size.

Quote from: David RSure. But...

...I reread my post, and I don't see how anything I wrote, could have sparked of these comments. I was talking about about the possibility of gaming as a subculture. :shrug: Guess it came across as something entirely different. Apologies if it this is the case.

Regards,
David R

Ah, it wasn't you. I've just had my fill of self-loathing gamers on the net lately, and something you said touched me off. When I re-read it, I can't find it myself, so that was just me, doing a bit of transference. Sorry, David - it's me who needs to apologize. Nothing you said deserved that spiel.

Apologies!

-mice

No problem Mice. I realize sometimes posts about gamer culture, sometimes rubs people the wrong way- been there myself many times :D

Regards,
David R

I didn't emphasize it in my original post but what I found most interesting is how fandom was like a secret double life (a slim bit of life but something in addition to one's normal life). Gamers are kinda like that in that there are quite a few expressions that are used only among fellow gamers but which are never used outside of the group.

Quote from: David RDon't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

Nope, pretty well victims by choice. We aren't talking about abuse victims here, or kids that were beaten up by their dads or what have you.
We're talking about kids picking on other kids.
And the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

QuoteApparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.

Thank god for something at least. Its a start...

This hobby desperately needs to be much less inclusive of certain types.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWe're talking about kids picking on other kids.

Yup. And kids pick on kids for various reasons.

QuoteAnd the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

Nope. The latter is less about how "they haven't learn't how to yet" but rather about how they are ineffective in defending themselves against the bullies(Defending yourself against bullies does not mean the bullying will stop). As to the former, well there could be various reasons. Character could be one reason why they do not defend themselves, but I doubt that all who do not defend themselves suffer from a "victim mentality".

QuoteThank god for something at least. Its a start...

The way how people play the game, look while playing or what kind of games they play is hardly a "good start" but the fact that you think this is a good start, well that says a lot about how you view this hobby. I don't share your views.

QuoteThis hobby desperately needs to be much less inclusive of certain types.

Not really. There are some folks whom I would not game with (and I believe, many would not game with). But those are a tiny minority of the hobby. And hell, as long as they buy books and play with those who want to play with them, I don't really care that they are in the hobby. No, this line you use is just to get a little attention - really there is no real problem, and as such there is no valid reason to be less inclusive....except maybe if you want the hobby to be a little more elite.

Regards,
David R

Edit - Rpgpundit you did not use the term "good start" . That was my own mistake/misreading/misquote. I apologize, for this, but will let it stand with this edit.

Of course we're a subculture.

At the same time, I have yet to see any real value in any effort aimed at "thinking of ourselves as such".

Subcultures provide the group with a sense of identity.  I don't need that extra sense of identity - I have it, but it's about as useful to me as my appendix.  I mean, I eat, breathe, and sleep gaming; I can point to myself as a big gamer geek, but I don't use "gamer geek" to define who I am.

People that desperately do cling to that added sense of identity, who actually need gamerhood to define who they are...

...Well, that's just fucking sad.

I just find it interesting as a minor anthropological phenomenon, not as something valuable to preserve.  The interesting parts of a splice of society happen before anyone thinks of themselves as part of that group.

Quote from: NicephorusMembership is sometimes secret.  It's not like gamers have some big agenda,

Shit! You mean all these blackmails, all these assassinations, all this infiltration job has been for naught? What will I do now... :(

Quote from: Ottomsoh the ElderlyShit! You mean all these blackmails, all these assassinations, all this infiltration job has been for naught? What will I do now... :(

At least you're now qualified for a government job.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOf course we're a subculture.

At the same time, I have yet to see any real value in any effort aimed at "thinking of ourselves as such".

A lot of it is encouraged by companies aiming for brand loyalty.

Quote from: JongWKA lot of it is encouraged by companies aiming for brand loyalty.

Yes.

Which is valuable to them.  But not to me.

Quote from: RPGPunditNope, pretty well victims by choice. We aren't talking about abuse victims here, or kids that were beaten up by their dads or what have you.
We're talking about kids picking on other kids.
And the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

I have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me. The more correct statement would be to call the bullies "perpetrators by choice". Bullies physically and emotionally abuse their victims, using methods that would get adults arrested and thrown in prison. Bullies are disturbed kids who need serious help, just as much or more than their victims.

Sorry for the minor thread hijack, but since my work, as well as my personal history, are very loosely related to this subject I felt the need to speak up.

I agree with that.
I weighed 98 lbs when i graduated from HS. I defended myself and never backed down from anyone, but I was small so the bullying never really stopped. I looked 12 at the age of 19 so some of it even followed me to college. Choice had little to do with it.
There is such a thing as victim mentality, but to assign such a thing to a child is a retard move.


On topic. Gaming was an open secret between my freinds and I. We rarely talked about it with anyone but each other. I still don't talk to people about it, for two reasons mainly: explaining how an RPG works bores the living shit out of me, and nobody really gets it until they play one. The second reason is I'm pretty sure that nobody cares; hell I could give a rat's ass about their poker game or who won the superbowl or the world cup or whatever and  sports fans don't seek me out to talk at me about it- and I am greatful to each and everyone of them.

Quote from: SigmundI have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me. The more correct statement would be to call the bullies "perpetrators by choice". Bullies physically and emotionally abuse their victims, using methods that would get adults arrested and thrown in prison. Bullies are disturbed kids who need serious help, just as much or more than their victims.

Sorry for the minor thread hijack, but since my work, as well as my personal history, are very loosely related to this subject I felt the need to speak up.

Don't get me wrong, I despise bullies. Of all ages.

And just like I disagree with you about the "victim mentality" for the victims of bullying, I disagree with you about the idea that bullies "Need help".  Unless you're talking about a chronic bully/juvenile delinquent in the making, most incidents of bullying I am aware of are really just the "popular kids" picking on the available "unpopular kids" because its perfectly natural behaviour in the cesspool of dysfunction that is junior high/high school.

Bullies might need a good ass-kicking, but they don't need therapy, they aren't victims, they don't need to be mollycoddled or get in touch with their feelings or otherwise be practically rewarded for acting like shit-heads.

The ones that you could argue that could need "help" are those who, by the way they act and carry themselves, seem to draw bullies to them like flies. Mainly, they need help in changing how to project that attitude or stance that lends them to being bullied.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceAs a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF.

I believe that.  I like Ebert, but I sure believe that.  :heh:

Quote from: flyingmiceYou think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

Amen and repeated for emphasis!

In 8th grade, I was a total nerd.  I even had a fucking calculator watch.  One day, though, I decided that I was NOT going to be a nerd any more.  I threw that damn watch away and started fitting in.  I didn't stop doing my hobbies -- if anything, I play D&D more now -- but I transformed from a nerd to a geek by adopting the necessary social customs of my peers.

It took a while, but by 10th grade I was ignored or even accepted instead of being picked on.

I will almost agree with RPGPundit, though: if you consider yourself a member of a subculture instead of the culture you live in, you're opening yourself to getting the shit beaten out of you.  Protective camouflage is an important thing for anyone who is different.  You don't have to change what you essentially are; you just need to learn to pay lipservice to those around you.

Is that fair?  That is irrelevent.  Life is never fair.  You have to learn to play by the rules of the game.  Unlike in gaming, you can't house rules real life.  :)  (Unless you get fucking rich, that is.)

Quote from: SigmundI have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me.

As per usual, I disagree with Pundit's phrasing, but not so much what he is saying.  When I was a nerd, I chose to be a nerd and I chose to not fit in.  Sure, the bullies also chose to pick on me, but I was making a choice to not fit in to the culture I lived in.  Again, it's not fair that I should have to fit in, but that's life.  If you go around expecting fairness, you will get fucked up the ass every time.

When I made the minimal effort to fit in (bathing every day was an especially good choice!) and accepted the rules of the game, my life suddenly became a lot happier.  :)

You know I just sat here and read all three pages of this thread, and I'm still not sure how it managed to devolve into some kind of socio-psychological wankfest.

As to the original question, of course RPGs are a subculture.  It's not a matter of opinion, they just Are.  So are comic books, serious Anne Rice fans, furries, non-casual Anime fans, and pretty much any other topic of interest that depends on a certain type of mindset to garner interest.  It's not when role-players started thinking they were a subculture that it started getting retarded, it was when they stopped thinking they were a subculture.
RPGs are not a mainstream thing, and they just never will be.  You can't change that, I can't change that, little green apples can't change that.  Now mainstream advertisement would help (and like everyone else by that I do not mean craptastic B-grade made-for-cable movies or even the pile of rancid cinematic dogshit that was the movie before that, I mean commercial spots that run more than 2 or 3 times, don't run at 4:30am, and not only on the Sci-Fi channel), but absolutely nothing will make RPGs a mainstream thing.

Wolv, what a harsh fucking thing to say, why would you make such a broad, sweeping statement that 90% of us will knee-jerk ourselves into thinking we can shoot down as some kind of bullshit strawman arguement?

Glad you asked.  It's pretty simple, really.  RPGs will never be a mainstream thing any more than comic books will be because it requires a certain sort of mindset to have the least bit of interest in it.  

I don't mean having contempt for it, this isn't the 80's and no one in their normal mind would still think we're freaky devil-worshippers luring little Billy into the woods to sacrifice his pure virgin christian heart to our dark lord satan.  I mean most people, even if you sit down and explain the game (any RPG) to them, or twist their arm into sitting through a session, will have even a passing interest.  
And just because I feel like it, I'll tote out the ole' anecdotal thing.  I don't expect everyone to have a similar experience, although if no one has I'll be surprised.
 
I discovered D&D in the (very) early 80's.  '81 or '82 mostly.  Unfortunately, I couldn't beg, borrow, blackmail, or steal anyone I knew into even considering learning the game.  I know a lot of people have that "And so I got my friends together and Dmed for them, and I had my first group" memory.  That wasn't me, if I was going to even mention D&D my friends had somewhere else to be, and I was welcomed to come if I wasn't going to bring that up again.  I didn't find anyone else who played any RPG at all for years.  Too many years.  Like, until high school, years.

Anyway, I spin this yarn to illustrate that not everyone is even capable of having the least interest in RPGs, whereas most gamers have much more than a passing interest in it.  Like most other subcultures gamers have Always had their own publications, gatherings, lingo, jokes, catchphrases, clichés, etc.  Being a subculture has nothing wrong with it, hell the mainstream culture is made up of myriad subcultures, we're not riding the short bus because we're one too.

And for good measure, as far as the socio-psychological pabulum, it's not just the nerdy, geeky, wimpy, little kids that get picked on.  And your attitude doesn't always effect anything.  Whereas I was somewhat short (5'6"), I was commonly considered pretty good-looking by girls in school (it can be good to have female friends who will tell you these things when the other girls say them, I tell you), was fairly quiet but didn't take any shit, wore glasses but walked with a swagger that wasn't fake, and could fairly easily have kicked the shit out of a good number of single bullies who tried to mess with me.  
Regardless, I was picked on mercilessly.  Not in a "give me yer lunch money or start eatin' toilet, geek" way, but by groups of more popular kids.  Shit happens, and it happens to everyone.

The problem with bullying and the notion of victimhood extends well beyond the "jock/nerd" context - which frankly I have had no experience with. Either as a victim or perpretrator nor have I witnessed any of this kind of behavoiur.

What does trouble me (and others I'm sure) is the bullying that occurs for other reasons and the reactions to such bullying. These few examples are of the many incidents I have witnessed during my school years and after (in my capacity as a tutor), to give you folks an idea as to where I'm coming from.

The first example concerns race. When the bullying occurs because the victim is of a particular race. This happens frequently in most urban schools in my country but is not really talked about. It's a subtle occurence that everybody knows goes on but just one of those things that they believe has to take it's course.

Sometimes the kid - most times -realizes that his parents are working hard to sustain his/her family and does not report the bullying. Teachers are of no help - as is sadly usually the case(but they are some who believe this profession is perhaps still the noblest in the world and would probably do something about it) - and so, they just concentrate on doing well academically and moving on. Sometimes they defend themselves, sometimes they don't.

How about the bullying that occurs between students of the same race. I have seen bullying occur because some students thought that speaking English was a bad thing and that the speaker was somehow trying to be better then he/she was. This normally happens within students of the same race who belong in similar income brackets. The result is the same as the above. Keep your head down, maybe fight back (hope it works) but do well in school and leave this shithole.

There are many terms I could use to define their responses - victimhood is not one of them.

If stopping bullying was just a matter of changing the victims hygeine habits and appearence, that would be so easy. But I think stopping bullying is a much more complex issue and would involve more than just a make over(although in some cases that works) and to dismiss or frame it within a narrowly defined context, is not really appreciating the problem at hand.

Sorry if this comes of as angry. I know I will have to post a couple of apologies down the road.

Regards,
David R

Edit -(Okay, this post, is unproductive. You, folks are talking about your experiences with regards to gaming culture. Sorry, for the tone of this post)

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, I play a lot of backgammon too, but does that mean I'm part of the "Backgammon Community" or the "Backgammon subculture"??

Maybe if you played every week, or went to Backgammon conventions and tournaments. Like some gamers do.

Look at it like pool, while loads of people play it occasionanly, some people go so far as to buy their own cue, some play every week/day, some play the occasional tournament, some make a living out of it, touring tournaments.

Gaming has different levels of involvement. To some people it is just a game, to others its a community, to others its a living.

QuoteWhereas I was somewhat short (5’6”), I was commonly considered pretty good-looking by girls in school (it can be good to have female friends who will tell you these things when the other girls say them, I tell you), was fairly quiet but didn’t take any shit, wore glasses but walked with a swagger that wasn’t fake, and could fairly easily have kicked the shit out of a good number of single bullies who tried to mess with me.

Some cheese to the whine? Are you a friend of wil wheaton?
Honestly, why do you feel you have to tell us this? You might want to start a LiveJournal that nobody reads, and where you talk about your sick dog, and the girl you didn´t get, like the others of your ilk.
Why in hell do some gamers harrass us with their private lifes and high school traumas? What happens in your high schools?
Sorry for picking on you, you are by far not the only one. Don´t feel singled out, I´m talking to the bunch of you whiners.

Quote from: SettembriniSome cheese to the whine? Are you a friend of wil wheaton?

I met Wil Wheaton briefly at a book signing where he read from his "Just a Geek" book*, and had a chance to speak with him for a few minutes after everyone left. He's actually pretty cool, a good guy, very intelligent and is actually a gamer.

*Oddly enough, it was just by pure random chance. I had no idea he was going to be there.

Quote from: SettembriniSome cheese to the whine? Are you a friend of wil wheaton?
Honestly, why do you feel you have to tell us this? You might want to start a LiveJournal that nobody reads, and where you talk about your sick dog, and the girl you didn´t get, like the others of your ilk.
Why in hell do some gamers harrass us with their private lifes and high school traumas? What happens in your high schools?
Sorry for picking on you, you are by far not the only one. Don´t feel singled out, I´m talking to the bunch of you whiners.

The conversation veered into a discussion of bullies- ironically enough. A few people shared personal experiances, myslef included, perhaps in an attmemtp to add perspective to the discussion. Please put me on ignore, I have been known to share personal details with people on the internet without warning. for instance, I no longer have a cat. My best friends keeps her now and has ever since my second child was born.

Quote from: SettembriniSome cheese to the whine? Are you a friend of wil wheaton?
Honestly, why do you feel you have to tell us this? You might want to start a LiveJournal that nobody reads, and where you talk about your sick dog, and the girl you didn´t get, like the others of your ilk.
Why in hell do some gamers harrass us with their private lifes and high school traumas? What happens in your high schools?
Sorry for picking on you, you are by far not the only one. Don´t feel singled out, I´m talking to the bunch of you whiners.

Problem here is, I wasn't whining.  I was illustrating from where I spoke for the rest of the post.  Without that little blurb, I could easily have been trying to talk about kids getting bullied in school from the perspective of a 6'2" 210 lb. powerlifting jock for all the info I'd have given.  With that blurb, I put what I was saying in perspective.  
If I wanted to whine about shit no one cares about, I've got a much longer and more interesting list of stuff to whine about.  But I don't, because no one cares.  :)

Quote from: SettembriniWhat happens in your high schools?
Sorry for picking on you, you are by far not the only one. Don´t feel singled out, I´m talking to the bunch of you whiners.

Nothing happens "in our high schools," it's individuals that don't know how to get along with others that have all these sob stories. They're weak, and so like in any social environment, they're either ignored or their weakness is taken advantage of. It's not the system, it's them, and they just don't want to own up to it.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNothing happens "in our high schools,"
.

Nothing happened at Columbine, that's for sure.

Quote from: AosNothing happened at Columbine, that's for sure.

Right, that's not "in our high schools." That's two crazy people.

good thing they were the only  ones ever.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNothing happens "in our high schools," it's individuals that don't know how to get along with others that have all these sob stories. They're weak, and so like in any social environment, they're either ignored or their weakness is taken advantage of. It's not the system, it's them, and they just don't want to own up to it.

It is your weakness - a striking absence of compassion - that should be forcibly bred out of my species.

Quote from: pandiculatorIt is your weakness - a striking absence of compassion - that should be forcibly bred out of my species.

:bow:

This kid was so asking for it:
http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2006/06/20/417629.html

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNothing happens "in our high schools," it's individuals that don't know how to get along with others that have all these sob stories. They're weak, and so like in any social environment, they're either ignored or their weakness is taken advantage of. It's not the system, it's them, and they just don't want to own up to it.

While it is individuals, the weakness lies not with the victims...

But with sorry motherfuckers who excuse the actions of the bullies, saying "They deserved it for being weak."

I'm willing to bet you are weaker than me or unable to commit actions that I have no problem with.

Shall I take what I want?

Does that mean if I see a woman, I can smash one across her grill, drag her in the alley, and assfuck her? She's just weak, right?


It's the chickenshit system that refuses to acknowledge that some people are worthless assholes. It's lousy motherfuckers who excuse bullying with some bullshit excuse like "It's just boys having fun..." or "If they wouldn't be so weak..." and other fucktard lines.



Shouldn't you be in the shop for a compassion chip, Mr. Roboto?

Quote from: T-WillardWhile it is individuals, the weakness lies not with the victims...

But with sorry motherfuckers who excuse the actions of the bullies, saying "They deserved it for being weak."

I'm willing to bet you are weaker than me or unable to commit actions that I have no problem with.

Shall I take what I want?

Does that mean if I see a woman, I can smash one across her grill, drag her in the alley, and assfuck her? She's just weak, right?


It's the chickenshit system that refuses to acknowledge that some people are worthless assholes. It's lousy motherfuckers who excuse bullying with some bullshit excuse like "It's just boys having fun..." or "If they wouldn't be so weak..." and other fucktard lines.



Shouldn't you be in the shop for a compassion chip, Mr. Roboto?

Some people whine about the world being unfair, some people mold the world to their liking. I suppose it's just a fundamental difference that can't be explained. I'll leave y'all to your whining.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardSome people whine about the world being unfair, some people mold the world to their liking. I suppose it's just a fundamental difference that can't be explained. I'll leave y'all to your whining.

Ah yes, for I was whining.

I'm willing to mold the world to my liking.

Does that mean if I like, I can assfuck you?

I'm really kind of curious, of how you can rationalize your "Strong May Victimize the Weak Without Repercussions" philosophy taking into account modern civilization.

Me, I've never whined about the world being unfair. I learned at an early age that life isn't fair, deal with it.

You, however, seem to be blathering on the same mantra that bullies and asswipes everywhere claim. Typical tough guy bullshit I usually hear in the bar from some good ol' boy asswipe trying to explain why it's OK to jump someone with his three buddies.

Tell me, oh wise one, what's the difference between what you speak of, and of those who take what they want from the weaker, despite laws or social conventios?

Why is it OK for your philosophy to preach this, yet you would undoubtably be upset if I harmed you or yours?

It's not something that can't be explained.

People who believe that the weak deserve to be victimized are usually spineless douchebags who attack the weak to feel superior, or attack other people in packs.

Explain to me how this isn't true.

Quote from: T-WillardAh yes, for I was whining.

I'm willing to mold the world to my liking.

Does that mean if I like, I can assfuck you?

I'm really kind of curious, of how you can rationalize your "Strong May Victimize the Weak Without Repercussions" philosophy taking into account modern civilization.

Me, I've never whined about the world being unfair. I learned at an early age that life isn't fair, deal with it.

You, however, seem to be blathering on the same mantra that bullies and asswipes everywhere claim. Typical tough guy bullshit I usually hear in the bar from some good ol' boy asswipe trying to explain why it's OK to jump someone with his three buddies.

Tell me, oh wise one, what's the difference between what you speak of, and of those who take what they want from the weaker, despite laws or social conventios?

Why is it OK for your philosophy to preach this, yet you would undoubtably be upset if I harmed you or yours?

It's not something that can't be explained.

People who believe that the weak deserve to be victimized are usually spineless douchebags who attack the weak to feel superior, or attack other people in packs.

Explain to me how this isn't true.

Simple: He's never been in the real world, nor victim of someone taking advantage of him.

Nor, I'd wager, in the situation of standing up to defend the rights of someone who couldn't do it for themselves.

He's of the variety that doesn't comprehend that sometimes those with tales of bullies are those who have defended others against those who would take what they want by whatever means they could get away with.

Quote from: WolvorineNor, I'd wager, in the situation of standing up to defend the rights of someone who couldn't do it for themselves.

He's of the variety that doesn't comprehend that sometimes those with tales of bullies are those who have defended others against those who would take what they want by whatever means they could get away with.

The taffy-like stretches of imaginations that y'all will resort to in order to protect your bubbles is laughable. In fact, I do stand up for the weak whenever I have the chance, that has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever. Also, I've certainly been the victim of someone taking advantage of me, but when I realized it I stood up and did something about it, I didn't start crying about how the world was unfair and take my beating.

Bullying is going to happen no matter what you do, the proper thing is to teach both the bullies *and* the victims how to behave properly in those situations, not to cry about it.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardThe taffy-like stretches of imaginations that y'all will resort to in order to protect your bubbles is laughable. In fact, I do stand up for the weak whenever I have the chance, that has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever. Also, I've certainly been the victim of someone taking advantage of me, but when I realized it I stood up and did something about it, I didn't start crying about how the world was unfair and take my beating.

Bullying is going to happen no matter what you do, the proper thing is to teach both the bullies *and* the victims how to behave properly in those situations, not to cry about it.

Actually, that is a lot different than your previous quote of: "Victims deserve it because they are weak."

So which is it?

Quote from: T-WillardActually, that is a lot different than your previous quote of: "Victims deserve it because they are weak."

So which is it?

Perhaps you could quote the message where I said that?

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardPerhaps you could quote the message where I said that?

Happy to oblige.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNothing happens "in our high schools," it's individuals that don't know how to get along with others that have all these sob stories. They're weak, and so like in any social environment, they're either ignored or their weakness is taken advantage of. It's not the system, it's them, and they just don't want to own up to it.

It's not the system, it's them, because they are weak, but they don't want to own up to it.

They're weak, that's why it happens.

Along with, it's not the system, it's them.

Then I wrote...

Quote from: T-WillyIt's the chickenshit system that refuses to acknowledge that some people are worthless assholes. It's lousy motherfuckers who excuse bullying with some bullshit excuse like "It's just boys having fun..." or "If they wouldn't be so weak..." and other fucktard lines.

Among other things, which you then quoted and replied...

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardSome people whine about the world being unfair, some people mold the world to their liking. I suppose it's just a fundamental difference that can't be explained. I'll leave y'all to your whining.

Now, would you like to rephrase your answers, or would you be happy with the label of NTL's resident clueless motherfucker?

Quote from: T-WillardNow, would you like to rephrase your answers, or would you be happy with the label of NTL's resident clueless motherfucker?

Waitaminute!  What?  He's taking my crown away?

Oh wait, never mind.  I forgot I'm not the mofo part...

-SJ

Quote from: T-WillardNow, would you like to rephrase your answers, or would you be happy with the label of NTL's resident clueless motherfucker?

No need. The fact that you couldn't cite anywhere I said what you said I did means that you need to revisit your argument before there's any further discussion. You're simply arguing against something that's not there.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNo need. The fact that you couldn't cite anywhere I said what you said I did means that you need to revisit your argument before there's any further discussion. You're simply arguing against something that's not there.

Wow, what colour is the sky where you live?

Let me guess...

Because you believe it to be so, it is.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNo need. The fact that you couldn't cite anywhere I said

WTF? that was a pretty obvious cite to me.  And you're just backpeddling to try to avoid admitting you're wrong.

But T-Willard did have one thing wrong.  This makes you NKL's resident clueless motherfucker.  You still have a ways to go before you can compete for that title on NTL.

Quote from: NicephorusWTF? that was a pretty obvious cite to me.  And you're just backpeddling to try to avoid admitting you're wrong.

But T-Willard did have one thing wrong.  This makes you NKL's resident clueless motherfucker.  You still have a ways to go before you can compete for that title on NTL.

I guess someone is sorry he drew the T-Willard card :deviousgrin: (I realize my post is unproductive, but I just don't see, why Saltbeard wants to prolong this)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNo need. The fact that you couldn't cite anywhere I said what you said I did means that you need to revisit your argument before there's any further discussion. You're simply arguing against something that's not there.

BACKPEDAL FASTER BITCH!

Quote from: T-WillardBACKPEDAL FASTER BITCH!

Just because your "posse" comes in and "has your back" does not mean that you are right.

You can quote no post in which I used the word "deserve" or even implied that it was the case. I'm not backpedaling, you're attempting to steam roll me, but just like the judo master, I am able to use your attempts against you.

If you all had learned judo, perhaps you would not have suffered such indignities at your schools.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIf you all had learned judo, perhaps you would not have suffered such indignities at your schools.

Judo?

JUDO?

JUDO!!??!?

For self-defense?

I think you meant ju-jitsu or aikido

I think he meant "Look, over there...  really, look" actually.

Personally, I like the quoted use of "posse" and "has your back".  Which I take to be used as "I'm too good to use those dumbass terms myself, but you strike me as the sort who does" or somesuch.  Hell, I don't use those idiotic terms, but the quotated use still gives me a chuckle.

It's up there with "Oh fine, since you won't go away, and I can't refute you, "you win", even though we all know you don't."

Pfftp.  The sad truth is that if You can't see where you overtly implied (at the Very Least) exactly what you are accused of saying CantankerousSaltbeard, that that is just fucking pathetic given that you Wrote it.  You're not even good enough at this to be a bully, you're the sort that pushes smaller people in the bully's path so that you can strut around talking about how the bullies don't touch you, and the smaller people should learn to push someone.

Judo Master..  pfftp...

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardJust because your "posse" comes in and "has your back" does not mean that you are right.

You can quote no post in which I used the word "deserve" or even implied that it was the case.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardNothing happens "in our high schools," it's individuals that don't know how to get along with others that have all these sob stories. They're weak, and so like in any social environment, they're either ignored or their weakness is taken advantage of. It's not the system, it's them, and they just don't want to own up to it.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardSome people whine about the world being unfair, some people mold the world to their liking. I suppose it's just a fundamental difference that can't be explained. I'll leave y'all to your whining.

How's that?

QuoteI'm not backpedaling, you're attempting to steam roll me, but just like the judo master, I am able to use your attempts against you.

Wow. The Judo Master?

QuoteIf you all had learned judo, perhaps you would not have suffered such indignities at your schools.

Ah, we have the Judo-Bully, ladies and gentlemen.

"I learned Judo, so I didn't get picked on."

Well, Slappy, niether did I.

But, like your posts show, you're a bully at heart who makes excuses.

Well, *I* know Judo helped me out, AND I think it could help all of you out, too. I think you are probably still picked on now, and lack some self-confidence, but the Judo training that I HAVE received has made my mind as sharp of a killing machine as my body, and THAT experience is amazing. The confidence that you can kick the ASS of the weaker person makes it so that you don't always HAVE to do that in order to maintain your superiority. AND occasionally the weaker person will learn from you and start to make HIMSELF better. That is helping others, even if it is a hard lesson for some to learn.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeard[QUOTE], but the Judo training that I HAVE received has made my mind as sharp of a killing machine as my body, and THAT experience is amazing.

Riiiiiiight, you read too many Steven Seagal (sp) interviews.

QuoteThe confidence that you can kick the ASS of the weaker person makes it so that you don't always HAVE to do that in order to maintain your superiority.

You are kidding right ? Emphasis mineThis part is a typo right? I mean, I learnt martial arts to protect myself from stronger people, kicking the asses of weaker people I could do without training, that is, if bullying was a sport I indulged in.

QuoteAND occasionally the weaker person will learn from you and start to make HIMSELF better. That is helping others, even if it is a hard lesson for some to learn.

How old are you?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeard

Riiiiiiight, you read too many Steven Seagal (sp) interviews.



You are kidding right ? [IEmphasis mine[/I]This part is a typo right? I mean, I learnt martial arts to protect myself from stronger people, kicking the asses of weaker people I could do without training, that is, if bullying was a sport I indulged in.



How old are you?

Regards,
David R

Thank you for YOUR regards, David R. My age is not important to this issue, what I prefer to think about is my ABILITY to defend and project my self-worth. That is what really matters in this world, whether you are in school trying to not be bullied or in WORK trying to get that slick promotion.

That is good that you learned martial arts, BUT why not admit it gives you power over those of less size and skill of you? It should not make YOU uncomfortable that you can kick some ass.

I do not know of ANY Steven Seagal interviews, but if you have some I would like to read them...he is my favorite martial artist. I have seen all of his movies, and there's just so much confidence in his maneuvers...that's what I'm talking about. If bullies didn't have targets, they wouldn't be able to bully.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardMy age is not important to this issue

Perhaps not, but it would be interesting to know.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardThank you for YOUR regards, David R. My age is not important to this issue, what I prefer to think about is my ABILITY to defend and project my self-worth. That is what really matters in this world, whether you are in school trying to not be bullied or in WORK trying to get that slick promotion.

Okay, my post could have done without the attempts at sarcasm.

QuoteThat is good that you learned martial arts, BUT why not admit it gives you power over those of less size and skill of you?

Because it does not give me any power over those of less size and skill. All it has ever done, is give me confidence to act when attacked by people who think that they have some power over those of lesser size and maybe skill.

QuoteIt should not make YOU uncomfortable that you can kick some ass.

No, it makes me very uncomfortable....real life violence always does. I would rather flee(if alone) then to resort to violence. If someone else was attacked of course I would intervene.

QuoteIf bullies didn't have targets, they wouldn't be able to bully.

That's kind of like saying, "if rapists didn't have targets, they wouldn't be able to rape".

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David ROkay, my post could have done without the attempts at sarcasm.

No man, your post had just the right amount of sarcasm.  :)

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardThank you for YOUR regards, David R. My age is not important to this issue, what I prefer to think about is my ABILITY to defend and project my self-worth. That is what really matters in this world, whether you are in school trying to not be bullied or in WORK trying to get that slick promotion.

Well, not the most agile of dodges there, CSb.  Maybe another Segal movie will teach you the cat-like swiftness to avoid a point you require.
Okay, so you don't want to tell your age (it's amazing though, as the thread progresses, I swear your age decreases, judging by behavior and posts alone).  Although half a point for the lame attempt at some kind of Zen answer there "Age does not make one great, my ally is the Judo, and a powerful ally it is".  Sweet, really.  I was touched and shit.

Quote from: David RBecause it does not give me any power over those of less size and skill. All it has ever done, is give me confidence to act when attacked by people who think that they have some power over those of lesser size and maybe skill.

CSb seems to have missed the rather upfront and monstrously obvious point you made before that no one needs to study martial arts to kick the ass of someone weaker and/or less skilled.  That's kind of the entire point of it.  Martial Arts study is to arm yourself against those who are not weaker, or slower, or less skilled than yourself.
Not that I'd chose Judo for fuck's sake.  I mean jesus, at least have some taste in martial arts.  Me, I studied Shotokan, not that it ever affected anything, but it was fun.  Comically, I came out of it with the knowledge that at least up to the third belt rank, they weren't teaching anything I didn't know when I was a kid.  So, there ya go.  But damn, Judo?

Quote from: David RThat's kind of like saying, "if rapists didn't have targets, they wouldn't be able to rape".

Actually, it's exactly like saying that.

Well the rapist argument IS true. There are always men who´ll rape IF given the opportunity. It´s part of [some!] human´s nature.
The same with bullying.
Which doesn´t make the deed better, but it´ll happen, no matter what the SYSTEM tries to. Whe have a thing called civilization to safe us from the most violent strings of human desires. It´s civilizations and governments whole point:

Stop the free for all! (Hobbes; free-form)

Not by re-education, that´ll never work.
By ye goode olde fashioned force, or the threat of force. All political power comes from the business end of a rifle. For a reason.

So saying: "Defend yourself" is a big bullshit argument, as it is against the whole point of civilization and government.

Whining about bullies is showing weak character, but blaming the system for not DEFENDING is correct, indeed. Blaming the SYSTEM for the EXISTENCE of bullies or rapist is plain dumb and a-historical.

Quote from: WolvorineAlthough half a point for the lame attempt at some kind of Zen answer there "Age does not make one great, my ally is the Judo, and a powerful ally it is".  Sweet, really.  I was touched and shit.

:heh:

Where is rep when you need it?

Rep?

(What, I fess when I'm clueless!  :P)

Quote from: ColonelHardisson:heh:

Where is rep when you need it?

Yes, that was a VERY clever thing to say, AND I'm glad that he has recognized the philosophy in my philosophy.

It's not about beating up the weak, it's about not being beaten up. If someone doesn't take measures to MAKE themselves stronger, how can they expect not to be on the short end of the stick?

I do NOT condone bullying or raping, but I think people need to take responsibility for themselves. When the woman dresses like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person.

Quote from: Wolvorine(What, I fess when I'm clueless!  :P)

NO need...your posts do JUST fine.

Just a bit of humour to bring levity.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIt's not about beating up the weak, it's about not being beaten up. If someone doesn't take measures to MAKE themselves stronger, how can they expect not to be on the short end of the stick?

I do NOT condone bullying or raping, but I think people need to take responsibility for themselves. When the woman dresses like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person.

Oh booooyyyy....

:popcorn:

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardI do NOT condone bullying or raping, but I think people need to take responsibility for themselves. When the woman dresses like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person.

Emphasis mine. What the hell is the matter with you? Is this what you do for fun. Post nonsense like this. I'm not even going to continue with this conversation,because you seem, to be getting more immature with each post...although immature may not be the right term to describe your pathology.

Regards,
David R

er, it's just a troll, possibly experimenting with a new schtick.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardWell, *I* know Judo helped me out, AND I think it could help all of you out, too. I think you are probably still picked on now, and lack some self-confidence, but the Judo training that I HAVE received has made my mind as sharp of a killing machine as my body, and THAT experience is amazing. The confidence that you can kick the ASS of the weaker person makes it so that you don't always HAVE to do that in order to maintain your superiority. AND occasionally the weaker person will learn from you and start to make HIMSELF better. That is helping others, even if it is a hard lesson for some to learn.

On one hand, I wonder if it was Judo that let him pat himself on the back this hard without tearing his arm off.

Then I wonder if maybe his teacher needs a swift kick in the nuts if this is what this tool took from his classes.

You're a killing machine?

So, though guy, how many people have you killed? Inquiring minds want to know.

Oh, provide dates, locations, and references, if possible.

And all the weaker person learns when you kick his ass for no reason is that your an asshole.

And I love how you feel the need to maintain superiority.

What are, five?

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardYes, that was a VERY clever thing to say, AND I'm glad that he has recognized the philosophy in my philosophy.

It's not about beating up the weak, it's about not being beaten up. If someone doesn't take measures to MAKE themselves stronger, how can they expect not to be on the short end of the stick?

I do NOT condone bullying or raping, but I think people need to take responsibility for themselves. When the woman dresses like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person.

Damn, this has to be an alt, and/or troll.

Had me going good until here.

No fuckstick in his right man really believes this shit.


Otherwise the "killing machine" will eventually end up in Attica being anally mastered by his cell-mate, and of course, he'll deserve it for not acting in his own best interest and ending up in asspounding prison.



ALmost had me, but you got sloppy.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardI do not know of ANY Steven Seagal interviews, but if you have some I would like to read them...he is my favorite martial artist. I have seen all of his movies, and there's just so much confidence in his maneuvers...that's what I'm talking about. If bullies didn't have targets, they wouldn't be able to bully.

Here ya go, tough guy.  Here's a nice 10-page article about the esteemed Steven Seagal.  Its quite the interesting read, and if one considers your statement (emphasis mine), it might not be hard to understand where you're really coming from.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html


Peterson

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIt's not about beating up the weak, it's about not being beaten up. If someone doesn't take measures to MAKE themselves stronger, how can they expect not to be on the short end of the stick?

Okay, I can - mostly - follow this line of thinking.  Not condoning it, but understand.  This is the "Survival of the Fittest" thought process, right?  The one that goes - basically - you do what you need to do to survive?  I could be wrong here, but hope not.

So, let's take this idea and follow it to its logical conclusion.  Survival of the Fittest can't just mean being the biggest, baddest on the block.  If it did, wouldn't we see more agressive predators attacking anything, just because they can?  Hmm.  Perhaps.  However, it more than likely means that if Survival of the Fittest was about being the biggest, baddest on the block, than the T-Rex would still be around, stomping on the weaker species (like us) because its our fault we can't defend ourselves better....physically speaking.

Because, that's what your arguement is based on - physical traits and skills.  We're not really talking about Survival of the Fittest, because that means using all of your abilities - mental, physical, etc.  ALL.  Not just "I can do Judo."  I'm not sure that would work.

CSb: "I can do Judo!  I'm a killing machine!"
T-Rex: *Bite*
CSb: *Die*

I want a time machine so we can test my theory....

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardI do NOT condone bullying or raping, but I think people need to take responsibility for themselves. When the woman dresses like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person.

Hmm.  Let me hit the dictionary here...
Condone: : to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless.

It sort of...does sound like you do CONDONE it to me - at least, from my understanding based of off the dictionary.  Of course, my dictionary could be different from yours....

As for the part about "a women dressing like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person" (quoted AGAIN just to reinforce the fact that if you ain't a troll, you're one of the reasons why Violent Crimes happen)....well, I'm pretty sure that's what those convicted for Rape use as a defense.  I could look it up, find a case file that proves it, but you know what....its too disturbing to do.

Instead, this is what I'm going to do.  I'm going to take my paycheck - the one that feeds my wife and 3 kids, not to mention gives them a roof over their heads - and I'm going to donate the entire FUCKING thing to my local Crime Victim Compensation Board.  You know why?  Because I must be a damn enabler, according to you.....you fucking waste of human DNA.

One final thought - Martial Arts are NOT taught to give you power over those weaker/less skilled than you.  If you don't mind - please verify the fact that you know Judo.  We can do so in one of two ways:

Option #1: Name, address, and all other contact information of your Sensei so that I can call him/her to verify that you did, in fact, learn there and that you were, in fact, not kicked out for being an asshat.  I'll also need your full name and the dates that you attended.  A picture of you would likewise be helpful, but not necessary.

Option #2: I will personally fly your ass to my dojo - round-trip, all expenses paid.  We'll spar.  If you can prove that you know Judo moves and not some fucked-up verison of Tae-Bo, I'll publically apologize and back you 100% (that you know Judo).  If, however, you don't know it - you leave.  That's it.  I seriously would like you to leave the Human Race, or even just NKL, but...that's not probably going to happen - so, you just leave my dojo and never, ever come back.

There's two options.

Peterson

P.S.
Here's the address so you can donate too!

Crime Victim Compensation Board
P.O. Box 30026
Lansing, MI 48909
(517) 373-7373

Quote from: petersonsdcOption #2: I will personally fly your ass to my dojo - round-trip, all expenses paid.  We'll spar.  If you can prove that you know Judo moves and not some fucked-up verison of Tae-Bo, I'll publically apologize and back you 100% (that you know Judo).  If, however, you don't know it - you leave.  That's it.  I seriously would like you to leave the Human Race, or even just NKL, but...that's not probably going to happen - so, you just leave my dojo and never, ever come back.

Fuck that, send me a round trip ticket, and we'll blow money on booze and strippers!

If you still want a fight, we'll pick one in the parking lot of the strip club, there's always people who like to fight in the parking lot!

Quote from: T-WillardFuck that, send me a round trip ticket, and we'll blow money on booze and strippers!

If you still want a fight, we'll pick one in the parking lot of the strip club, there's always people who like to fight in the parking lot!

Dude, didn't you see the address on that Crime Victim Compensation Board?  It's Michigan, man.  They don't fight in michigan, they just shoot your ass and hope your shoes and coat pawn for enough to buy a rock.

No, wait...  Lansing...  alright no, it's cool, you can fight.  :P

Shit, fly me too, and while we're there we can slide down to Toledo, I know where to pick some fights there. ;)

And, on the general subject of CSb..  can I point out that it's truely poetic that Segal is his idol, given the man it a pathological liar AND a registered asshat?  Sometimes life DOES work.

Quote from: T-WillardFuck that, send me a round trip ticket, and we'll blow money on booze and strippers!

If you still want a fight, we'll pick one in the parking lot of the strip club, there's always people who like to fight in the parking lot!

Fight you?  No thanks.  You're probably the dirtiest fighters here, and I'd rather have you at my back than your beer bottle in my face.

Strippers though?  Damn, that's mighty tempting.  However, we ain't got any good ones here.  How about I come there?

Peterson

Quote from: WolvorineDude, didn't you see the address on that Crime Victim Compensation Board?  It's Michigan, man.  They don't fight in michigan, they just shoot your ass and hope your shoes and coat pawn for enough to buy a rock.

No, wait...  Lansing...  alright no, it's cool, you can fight.  :P

Shit, fly me too, and while we're there we can slide down to Toledo, I know where to pick some fights there. ;)

And, on the general subject of CSb..  can I point out that it's truely poetic that Segal is his idol, given the man it a pathological liar AND a registered asshat?  Sometimes life DOES work.

LOL - quoted for truth.  All of it.  Every single damn word...well, you can get rock in Lansing too.  At least, that's what Jez told me.

Peterson

Quote from: WolvorineRep?

(What, I fess when I'm clueless!  :P)

A lot of boards have rep (i.e. reputation) where people can give others positive or negative rep. It's a nice way to give someone an "attaboy!" when they say something either cogent or funny. Or both.

Anyway, this thread is one of those times it's nice to trot out this old chestnut:

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAnyway, this thread is one of those times it's nice to trot out this old chestnut:

I was waiting for this. Thanks!

It is a shame when those with inadequacies in real life must post things like that on the internet to make themselves feel better about themselves, Colonel Hardisson (are you a real colonel?).

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIt is a shame when those with inadequacies in real life must post things like that on the internet to make themselves feel better about themselves, Colonel Hardisson (are you a real colonel?).

Pot, meet kettle.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIt is a shame when those with inadequacies in real life must post things like that on the internet to make themselves feel better about themselves, Colonel Hardisson (are you a real colonel?).

No, I'm not a real colonel. It's a character I made up for a script I wrote back in film school.

I didn't post it to feel better about myself. I posted it because it's funny. Haven't you ever heard of Something Awful? It's pretty famous. Lighten up.

Quote from: Harry JoyI've started a thread about your idol at NKL's sister site, NTL, if you are interested. Come and have some fun, Csb. You might meet some new folks who are into the same things you are. Rusted Scrap Metal springs to mind. He would really take a shine to you.
 
http://www.nothingland.com/showthread.php?p=97748#post97748

I dunno...he seems quick to take offense. The NKLers can be pretty rough. But maybe that's your point.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardIt is a shame when those with inadequacies in real life must post things like that on the internet to make themselves feel better about themselves, Colonel Hardisson (are you a real colonel?).

Bad troll!

You attempted an attack of opportunity at a wrong time.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonNo, I'm not a real colonel. It's a character I made up for a script I wrote back in film school.

Really? I always pictured you as an old grizzled warrior from too many flame wars, who found some peace at last and now meditates on things mundane and profound which you post here on Nutkinland. But film school, you say.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RReally? I always pictured you as an old grizzled warrior from too many flame wars, who found some peace at last and now meditates on things mundane and profound which you post here on Nutkinland. But film school, you say.....

Regards,
David R

I knew he wasn't a colonel but I can't help picturing him as Colonel Mustard (that was his avatar for a long time).  I knew he didn't really look like that but it was still jarring to find out he looks a lot like my brother.

Quote from: petersonsdcFight you?  No thanks.  You're probably the dirtiest fighters here, and I'd rather have you at my back than your beer bottle in my face.

Not ME, we can go out in the parking lot and pick a fight with some rednecks.

God that sounds good. The sounds of wimpering rednecks and beaking bones.

Quote from: petersonsdcAs for the part about "a women dressing like a whore and goes drinking and drugging at a party, she's not acting responsibly or in her best interests, and if bad things happen, she must LEARN from the experience and become a better person" (quoted AGAIN just to reinforce the fact that if you ain't a troll, you're one of the reasons why Violent Crimes happen)....well, I'm pretty sure that's what those convicted for Rape use as a defense.  I could look it up, find a case file that proves it, but you know what....its too disturbing to do.

Boy howdy, but this thread as the topic drift from HELL. If I were smart, I'd slink away before I'm seen.


Well, CSb seems to have pissed everybody off, although I have to admit that this may be partially due to his poor phrasing in some places, and mostly due to others jumping to conclusions about what he meant and then getting pissed off at that strawman. Sort of like the above.

Is the rapist responsible? Fuck yeah, he's responsible. It's not like he tripped and accidentally fell in. He's a rapists. No two ways about it. He is responsible for his own actions. What CSb is saying is the woman he raped is also responsible for her own actions. In the scenerio he outlined, she wasn't spending a quiet night at home reading and the rapist broke in. She wasn't having a night out with some friends. The scenerio he outlined shows a woman drinking and taking other substances, which impare judgement, inhibitions and the ability to defend one's self. Now all of this does not excuse the rapist in any way, but the hypethetical woman here should not have put herself in harm's way like that. Bad things happen. No point in making it easier for bad things to happen to you.

Which, I think is CSb's main point. I don't think it's so much about making yourself stronger than it is about not making yourself weaker. There is a sort of "victim chic" these days. This is, not everyone who claims to be a victim really is one. Some are victims of their own making. For whatever reason. But it would not be if they did not make themselves weak and therefore a target for those who seek out and attack the weak. Bad things happen. Can't change that. So, there is no point in making it easier for bad things to happen to you.

Quote from: Jack Spencer JrWell, CSb seems to have pissed everybody off, although I have to admit that this may be partially due to his poor phrasing in some places, and mostly due to others jumping to conclusions about what he meant and then getting pissed off at that strawman. Sort of like the above.

Nobody here is getting pissed at a strawman. CSb is loud and clear. Take this little gem from a previous post -

QuoteThat is good that you learned martial arts, BUT why not admit it gives you power over those of less size and skill of you? It should not make YOU uncomfortable that you can kick some ass.

Poor phrasing is not a problem this guy has.

QuoteWhat CSb is saying is the woman he raped is also responsible for her own actions. In the scenerio he outlined, she wasn't spending a quiet night at home reading and the rapist broke in. She wasn't having a night out with some friends. The scenerio he outlined shows a woman drinking and taking other substances, which impare judgement, inhibitions and the ability to defend one's self.

Now, this here is the problem. She was having a night out with her friends -maybe. She was at a party. But look at his phrasing -dressing like a whore, hmm. Was her judgement impaired. Sure. Was she putting herself in harms way. Maybe. But this raises some interesting questions. Firstly it assumes that a woman can't go out and have fun (however judgment impairing that fun maybe) because she has to be worried that she may get raped.

(Lets take your example of spending a night at home. Was she alone? Because if she was, she is not taking precautions. To be really safe, she should be living with someone. A man, preferably. What kind of locks does she have in her home? She better have some high tech shit....)

Which I suppose is a good thing. Or maybe not. You see, should a black guy not go out drinking with a group of white guys, because you know he may not know if said white guys are part of the Klan.

QuoteNow all of this does not excuse the rapist in any way, but the hypethetical woman here should not have put herself in harm's way like that. Bad things happen. No point in making it easier for bad things to happen to you.

That's one way of looking at it. It's easy, to say stuff like this, in hypothetical situations, but reality is more clear cut, fortunately, having spent sometime, in my country's legal aid bureau, I'm happy to report that a woman does not have to be dressed like a whore, dinking and drugging in a party. She is normaly is drinking and drugging with people who she assumes she knows, but really doesn't. Maybe the best thing is for women, to be kept away from all men.

But wait...that's extreme right. Maybe tougher rape laws, personnel trained in rape counseling/investigation, more priority in teaching young males to respect woman...(and yes, teaching youngs girls that all men may be potential rapist, sounds like a good idea.)

QuoteWhich, I think is CSb's main point. I don't think it's so much about making yourself stronger than it is about not making yourself weaker.

Take a good look at most of his other posts, just so you are familiar, with his arguments.

QuoteThere is a sort of "victim chic" these days. This is, not everyone who claims to be a victim really is one.

Actually no. There are not so much a victim chic, but the reality of survivors. But nice phrase though. Also, be specific, when you claim, that not everybody who claims to be a victim really is one....I know how you feel about some rape survivors, but give me some other examples....you, know like the coloured guy, who should not have been walking in a particular street...

QuoteFor whatever reason. But it would not be if they did not make themselves weak and therefore a target for those who seek out and attack the weak. Bad things happen. Can't change that. So, there is no point in making it easier for bad things to happen to you.

Sure.Nobody was arguing against this.Although as I have mentioned before, it's a hell of a lot more complex than cliches about not making yourself a target.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David Rmore priority in teaching young males to respect woman...(and yes, teaching youngs girls that all men may be potential rapist, sounds like a good idea.)

Just because YOU would rape a woman given the chance does not mean that all TRUE men should be labeled as rapists in waiting. I am not a potential rapist and should not be treated like one.

And how about we teach young women to respect THEMSELVES? That would be, don't swear, don't dress like a whore, don't have sex with every man that comes along, or ENGAGE in cuddle puddles and rainbow parties. Too many young women have learned to build their identities around casual sex AND lesbianism. They also swear profusely and TRY to take on masculine roles.

THIS is what I meant all along: people NEED to respect themselves. Make themselves stronger! Learn the JUDO way! Not to blame others. If you call yourself a survivor, THEN you know you are just making excuses. Why label yourself that? That just gives the incident POWER over you, instead of giving you power over the incident! If something bad happens to you, you should just get over it. If you don't want it to happen again, don't repeat the same behaviors, and take steps to learn judo. Simple advice for a simple world!

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardJust because YOU would rape a woman given the chance does not mean that all TRUE men should be labeled as rapists in waiting. I am not a potential rapist and should not be treated like one.

First off, I think the poster was being sarcastic, but perhaps not.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardAnd how about we teach young women to respect THEMSELVES? That would be, don't swear, don't dress like a whore, don't have sex with every man that comes along, or ENGAGE in cuddle puddles and rainbow parties. Too many young women have learned to build their identities around casual sex AND lesbianism. They also swear profusely and TRY to take on masculine roles.

And don't forget that the female is supposed to walk 10' (or is 20'?  I can never remember the sexists' rules correctly) behind the man, keep her head bowed, and cover her face.  Oh, and while we're at it, let's take away their right to vote, since obviously they (females) are too weak to make strong decisions... That, by the way, was sarcasm.  I mean, seriously - what the bloody fuck does swearing have to do with self-respect?

Quote from: SomeoffhisrockerbackwoodsSeagelwannabeTHIS is what I meant all along: people NEED to respect themselves. Make themselves stronger! Learn the JUDO way! Not to blame others. If you call yourself a survivor, THEN you know you are just making excuses. Why label yourself that? That just gives the incident POWER over you, instead of giving you power over the incident! If something bad happens to you, you should just get over it. If you don't want it to happen again, don't repeat the same behaviors, and take steps to learn judo. Simple advice for a simple world!

Uh-huh.  First off, John-boy, the world ain't simple.  I'm not about to try to find enough small words to explain it to you, but just trust me - it ain't simple.  I do agree however that people do need to respect themselves - they do.  Its a fact.  I just don't see how making one's self "stronger", being taught "the Judo way", or not "calling those that survive something strenous/seriously life-affecting a survivor" is being taught respect...I suppose it could make sense in a simple world, maybe, but see my previous statement about that.

"If you don't want it to happen again, don't repeat the same behaviors, and take steps to learn judo."  That is just beautiful advice, because as everyone knows JUDO can stop wars, bullets, the sky from falling, and Tupac's death. (Again, that was sarcasm.)

Huh.  I've seen Judo.  I've even dabbled a bit in Judo.  I have a friend who teaches Judo.  After talking it over with him, we - by no means experts, but certainly informed folk - have determined that JUDO could do none of those things (stop bullets, war, the sky from falling, and Tupac's death)....unless of course, you are Chuck Norris (but then it wouldn't be JUDO would it?).

Peterson

Also, I'm still waiting for an answer from you, SCb.  Option #1 or #2.  I'm a nice guy.  I'm letting you pick.

Peterson

Since Petersonsdc has responded to your comments in a cogent manner, anything I would add, would seem to me, to be superfluous. Well, I just got a couple of observations.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardJust because YOU would rape a woman given the chance does not mean that all TRUE men should be labeled as rapists in waiting. I am not a potential rapist and should not be treated like one.

Emphasis mine.Could you please define what you mean by true men. Do you mean it in a Tolkienesque"True men of the West" kind of way, or is the concept more ideological or religious in nature.

QuoteAnd how about we teach young women to respect THEMSELVES? That would be, don't swear, don't dress like a whore, don't have sex with every man that comes along, or ENGAGE in cuddle puddles and rainbow parties. Too many young women have learned to build their identities around casual sex AND lesbianism. They also swear profusely and TRY to take on masculine roles.

Emphasis mine. Could you define dressing like a whore. This may interest you (or it may not), recently in my country (Malaysia) there has been a controversy about local city councils being legally empowered to police the morality of the general public. One of the provisions was that cuddles in public were considered immoral. Immoral within an Asian value context, which has gained some approval from some of the more conservative elements in society.

The fact that in name we are supposed to be a Muslim country (although, anyone visiting this country should be aware that they will receive a very secular wellcome, I believe I live in a country with limitless possibilities -end of plug :)  ) it is troubling to many that the powers that be are investing the local councils with such powers...powers that would be interpreted within a Muslim context.

How does this relate to you? Well I'm pleasently suprised that your arguments are very much in line with what they are proposing. It's good to know that some values are universal.

Also could you define what you mean by masculine roles.

QuoteTHIS is what I meant all along: people NEED to respect themselves. Make themselves stronger! Learn the JUDO way! Not to blame others. If you call yourself a survivor, THEN you know you are just making excuses. Why label yourself that? That just gives the incident POWER over you, instead of giving you power over the incident! If something bad happens to you, you should just get over it. If you don't want it to happen again, don't repeat the same behaviors, and take steps to learn judo. Simple advice for a simple world!

Emphasis mine. I don't think you really understand the not so subtle politics of the words "victim" and "survivor". I also believe that your worldview does not allow you to appreciate the fact that the definition of the word power is varied and fluid.

As to your belief as to what JUDO is, I think we have established that you are ignorant about the philosophy on which the subject is based on.

Regards,
David R

Damn, your Regen kicked in, didn't it.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardJust because YOU would rape a woman given the chance does not mean that all TRUE men should be labeled as rapists in waiting. I am not a potential rapist and should not be treated like one.

True, you'd just "give her what she deserves." right right?

QuoteAnd how about we teach young women to respect THEMSELVES? That would be, don't swear, don't dress like a whore, don't have sex with every man that comes along, or ENGAGE in cuddle puddles and rainbow parties.

Would robes and viels do it for you sunshine?

Hey, phone call for you, it's 2006, they want to know if you're going to be here anytime soon?

QuoteToo many young women have learned to build their identities around casual sex AND lesbianism. They also swear profusely and TRY to take on masculine roles.

Lose your job to a woman, or your girlfriend to a lesbian?

Wow, just think, I heard they like to vote and wear pants too.

QuoteTHIS is what I meant all along: people NEED to respect themselves.

IEN DEUTCHLAND!
[/quote]Make themselves stronger![/quote]
IEN UBERMENCH!

QuoteLearn the JUDO way!

EIN VOLK!

QuoteNot to blame others. If you call yourself a survivor, THEN you know you are just making excuses. Why label yourself that? That just gives the incident POWER over you, instead of giving you power over the incident!

Wow, I'm sure rape, murder, assault, and the like are empowering.

Oh, wait, but women can't be empowered, they might want to vote, wear pants, and have thier own sexuality.

QuoteIf something bad happens to you, you should just get over it.

"Just lay back and enjoy it."

One of your pickup lines perhaps?

QuoteIf you don't want it to happen again, don't repeat the same behaviors, and take steps to learn judo. Simple advice for a simple world!

And yet you posted here again.

Does your mom know you are using the computer?

Judo? Judo!?!?

Fucking please. It's a goddamn combat fighting style, not the answer to everyone's problems.

Isn't there a cult you could join, troll? I'm sure there's one that believes in a passing comet somewhere out there that will accept you as a member.

Just remember, cyanide is not only a great drink spicer-upper, but also improves your complexion.

Quote from: petersonsdcAlso, I'm still waiting for an answer from you, SCb.  Option #1 or #2.  I'm a nice guy.  I'm letting you pick.

Peterson

Where are you again? I would like to fly there at your expense, most likely.

Quote from: David REmphasis mine. I don't think you really understand the not so subtle politics of the words "victim" and "survivor".

I am not interested in politics, I am interested in people learning to police their own behavior AND to defend themselves when necessary. I wish Muslims like those in your country could do the former, and I'm glad that they aren't better at the latter as a result.

Quote from: Harry Joy*judo*
 
I'm a firm believer in the belief that a good defense is a good defense. Guard your exits, whether you are female and worried about rape, or a retailer worried about "shrink", or a country bleeding from all orifices.
 
When you catch the perpertrator, chase them. Chase them long and hard. And holler a lot. Whether you are a victim of rape, theft, or cross-border raids.
 
If the hollering doesn't gain you A. Superman, B. The cops, or C. Ted Nugent, trip them. Then step on their faces. If that doesn't work, it will at least distract them from their nuts. Step on them instead.
 
*judo*
 
hth

You sir are a TRUE man. I bet you are not scarred from a lifetime of abuse AND inferiority complex. You are greater than a survivor.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardI am not interested in politics, I am interested in people learning to police their own behavior AND to defend themselves when necessary. I wish Muslims like those in your country could do the former, and I'm glad that they aren't better at the latter as a result.

What the hell does this even mean? No, don't take this as an invitation to explain yourself. You obviously have ideas that are anathema to me. Let's leave it at that.

Regards,
David R

manah manah

Quote from: David RWhat the hell does this even mean? No, don't take this as an invitation to explain yourself. You obviously have ideas that are anathema to me. Let's leave it at that.

Regards,
David R

I am QUITE happy that I do, but I do wish you better things for YOUR life in the future. THAT is meant with sincerity.

Quote from: Settembrinimanah manah

Do do do-do-do

I've got it!  I know the answer!

It just hit me in a flash.  I know what's wrong with CSb's brain!  He's some kind of adolescent krishna-judo freak.  It explains it all.

I had no idea that judo had combined with the krishnas, but..  damn...

CSb, you are - to put it quite simply to save myself the effort of typing - just plain fucking stupid.  Please do not mate.

Quote from: CantankerousSaltbeardI am QUITE happy that I do, but I do wish you better things for YOUR life in the future. THAT is meant with sincerity.

Fair enough. You take care CSb.

Regards,
David R

This thread delivers :win:

QuoteThis thread delivers

Is it a phenomenon?

Quote from: SettembriniIs it a phenomenon?

doot-do do-do-do!