So, we often hear gamers complain that "product (line) X is too expensive!", almost as often as we hear publishers or game designers complain that RPG-gamers are too cheap.
But are there certain books that you think are a crazy value for the money? Where either because of sheer amount of content, or quality of content, their sale price is insanely good?
Which books are those, and why do you think they're such a good value?
Can't get any better value wise than the Basic Fantasy RPG, IMO. Open source, every digital file is free, and printed books are available on Amazon for $5 - $10.
Creature Compendium. Originally $2, now PWYW. 200 or so monsters, illustrated and stated up for both 1e/0e and B/X.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/147588/CC1-Creature-Compendium
And despite this, a surprising amount of bitching on the product page.
Stonehell Dungeon 1 and 2. Under $20 (each book) for a megadungeon in print. Granted, it's a slim format, that one page (albeit expanded a bit), but still, it's a massive place well designed for very little.
And Dwimmermount. For $50, I got (albeit a couple years later) a huge hardback book, two little books, and a PDF. Had it come from Frog God Games, the same product would likely have cost well over $200.
Night's Dark Terror is a terrific 64 pg module that can take characters from low to mid level and its available in pdf for $5 USD? I love the B/X and BECMI modules but this one has the most meat of any of them, it is pretty much a full campaign.
Similarly the RC for $10 and the Known World gazeteers for $5 each is great value, particularly the Karameikos, Glantri and Shadow Elves gazeteers.
In terms of hardcopy my edition of 5e CoC is still one of the most prized books in my collection that has given me years and years of great gaming. My copies of The City of Greyhawk and the terrific Night Howlers supplement have also provided a lot of fun over the years.
These days I'd say the 5e DMG is full of great content and considering the quality and quanity of material in CoS and Out of the Abyss I don't understand the complaints about the cost of those beatifully put together hardcovers (and at the same time people complain that they're not putting out enough material!?!?).
Quote from: Celestial;972624Can't get any better value wise than the Basic Fantasy RPG, IMO. Open source, every digital file is free, and printed books are available on Amazon for $5 - $10.
I think being able to get great
printed BFRPG adventures on
amazon (!!) for the cost of print & delivery has to count as 'ridiculously cheap', yes.
Likewise White Star & White Star Companion on rpgnow are currently on print & deliver at-cost (+PWYW), though RPGnow's production costs are a lot higher than amazon's.
Looking at regular for-profit stuff, it's striking how you get some great 300-page full colour hardbacks for the cost of two 32 page efforts... things I've bought that seemed particularly good value include
5e Primeval Thule Campaign Setting - Sasquatch
Rise of the Runelords Hardback - Paizo
The Inner Sea World Guide Hardback - Paizo
Second Basic Fantasy. The print versions are also cheap, and you can get a lay-flat (coil bound) version for under $10 on Lulu (and some of the modules are even cheaper on Amazon). Also on Lulu, all the issues of Fight On! and NOD are amazing deals with all kinds of weirdness and hex crawl stuff. And that's just scratching the surface.
Mazes & Minotaurs is good, free, and with an amazing amount of supporting material for the (ahem) first RPG ever published. Another free product worth looking around for are the Santicore compilations. They're just packed with crazy ideas.
PDFs of the AADA Road Atlases are $3/ea at W23. They're a fun, quirky alt-future (of the past), Mad Max-style.
Not the biggest fan of Savage Worlds, but a full color core book for $10 is great. Castles & Crusades is another one that's not really to my taste, but is still a great value if you like it.
Creature Compendium is cheap, not good.
Eclipse Phase -- the publisher seed their own torrents, so the PDFs are free and legal. And you can also pay for PDFs and hardcopies.
You have to watch for things you're interested in, but the Bundle of Holding and the RPG-related Humble Bundles are great ways to huge piles of PDFs for 80% off or more.
As Pat said, the bundle of holding deals are insane and they help a good cause.
D6 - Free!!
The Void - One of my all-time favorite sci-fi games - Free!
Savage Worlds - A pretty complete ruleset for 10e.
OpenQuest 2 - I think it's 8e and is a super slick version of the RQ system (I prefer it to Mythras - but then I'm a rules light guy).
Fantastic Heros and Witchery - So much packed into that book and it's a mere 7e.
LoTFP - is pretty cheap for the full version.
Talislanta - Free (but I've not played it though).
Stars Without Number - Free version.
Anyone that offers a full RPG game for under 13e is doing us all a favor in my opinion.
Goblinoid Games offers Labyrint Lord, Apes Victorious, and Mutant Future in free pdf versions.
Going by in print only- Basic Fantasy hands down. Everything is at cost on Amazon or Lulu. After that, Savage Worlds Deluxe is very complete for $10.
For Gold & Glory--a complete 2E 'Rules Cyclopedia' for $7.29 for the B&W softcover.
The offset print Black Blade Publishing OSRIC book - 370+ pages full of original artwork that gives you most of 1E core 3 (DMG, PHB, MM) for $26 or so. I don't think you can beat it for its combination of print quality, art quality, and game quality.
All the hard copies of games that FUG still sells on their web site seem to have the same prices they had in 1983.
All of the 'classic'
Traveller CD collections.
Quote from: Dumarest;972677All the hard copies of games that FUG still sells on their web site seem to have the same prices they had in 1983.
He means FGU.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;972693All of the 'classic' Traveller CD collections.
He means FGU.
Yeah, FGU...the Fugs are altogether different from Fantasy Games Unlimited.
It's interesting that in the answers so far there's a huge variation of price-points and page-counts.
Mazes & Minotaurs (http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm)is free. That's insane.
I've gotten more play out of those free PDFs than most RPGs I bought.
For 25 english pounds Blades in the Dark is really good value IMO. It's not full colour, but glossy, and that nice smaller (and hardback) size too.
It also doesn't need to be full colour either.
Quote from: RPGPundit;972950It's interesting that in the answers so far there's a huge variation of price-points and page-counts.
I have one skirmish wargame called G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T. Rules For Adventures in the Victorian Era. The rule book is 42 pages long and 5 1/4" x 8", so small format low page count. New the book went for $16 I think- most wargames are priced high, but the book is packed with content- not just the rules for skirmish wargaming, but random tables on creating your own troops, weapons, vehicles and creatures. There's no wasted space, at least not much. It's all usable stuff you would need and want to run the game and create things for years to come.
On the flip side, I'm sure there's books that are really cheap with high page counts, but it's all filler. If there's not much meat in there to use, what's the point?
Quote from: Celestial;972624Can't get any better value wise than the Basic Fantasy RPG, IMO. Open source, every digital file is free, and printed books are available on Amazon for $5 - $10.
For Gold and Glory is up there on the cheap as well, for D&D 2e fans. Not as much supporting material as BFRPG, though. Honestly, retroclones are just flat out great when it comes to how inexpensive they can be.
Quote from: RPGPundit;972950It's interesting that in the answers so far there's a huge variation of price-points and page-counts.
All that proves is that expense is relative. It's the same for any hobby. Anything free or at cost in this day and age I would consider ridiculously underpriced. But maybe to a teenager who doesn't get an allowance or have access to smartphone, iPad, laptop or desktop; BFRPG could seem daunting to collect all the printed materials. And for some of us (not me!) $30 per book may seem a pittance considering they'll get 8 hours of playtime per week, plus hours of reading, developing, etc.
Quote from: Harlock;973057All that proves is that expense is relative. It's the same for any hobby. Anything free or at cost in this day and age I would consider ridiculously underpriced. But maybe to a teenager who doesn't get an allowance or have access to smartphone, iPad, laptop or desktop; BFRPG could seem daunting to collect all the printed materials. And for some of us (not me!) $30 per book may seem a pittance considering they'll get 8 hours of playtime per week, plus hours of reading, developing, etc.
I am with you. For the amount of entertainment I get out of RPG books, I only hesitate if it's over $50 or $60 at once...and even then I usually talk myself into it if I can't find a review.
I'd say the paperback/small format version of the Dark Eye is great value, but the game doesn't appeal to me in the slightest! :D
Dunno about ridiculously underpriced, but the new Star Trek rpg is out on pdf at drivethru for a lot less than i expected. http://drivethrurpg.com/product_info.php?products_id=214552&site=&test_epoch=0¤cy=GBP&products_id=214552
Quote from: Biscuitician;973589Dunno about ridiculously underpriced, but the new Star Trek rpg is out on pdf at drivethru for a lot less than i expected. http://drivethrurpg.com/product_info.php?products_id=214552&site=&test_epoch=0¤cy=GBP&products_id=214552
$15.55 for a PDF according to my pounds to dollars conversion calculator.
Looks like it's all
The New Generation...I would prefer the original 1960s-1980s
Star Trek...but at it least it's not
Enterprise.
Quote from: Dumarest;973657$15.55 for a PDF according to my pounds to dollars conversion calculator.
Looks like it's all The New Generation...I would prefer the original 1960s-1980s Star Trek...but at it least it's not Enterprise.
I would imagine ththe classic era is included by default.
I would be happy to see enterprise because it is actually a decent show.
D&D 5e Starter Box is a good value. $20 nets a decent module (levels 1-5), basic rules (no chargen*), 5 pre gen character sheets, and a set of polyhedron dice, all in a sturdy box. It's enough to get rolling.
*Chargen rules can be found free online for the 4 basic classes, plus the SRD adds more.
Has the core boxset for Cubicle 7's Lone Wolf Adventure Game been mentioned yet?
Quote from: EOTB;972675The offset print Black Blade Publishing OSRIC book - 370+ pages full of original artwork that gives you most of 1E core 3 (DMG, PHB, MM) for $26 or so. I don't think you can beat it for its combination of print quality, art quality, and game quality.
I got that a few years ago and the person who sent it to me included a hardcover of Monsters of Myth for nothing at all.
Quote from: Biscuitician;973717I would be happy to see enterprise because it is actually a decent show.
Party of one, your table is ready. ;)
Well, if it's worthy anything, Star trek Adventures is the first dtrpg i've ever paid for (and nearly didn't thanks to it's shitty interface). This is directly attributable to the price - and the fact i like Trek, duh!
That said, I've never been 100% convinced that playing a typical starfleet crew (which this seems to be) really works. There's a lot of crew spaces to fill for one thing so you'll need a half decent sized group. Plus someone has to be captain and boss everyone else around - or the GM plays the captain and bosses everyone else around.
The printer friendly version is unreadable. It simply omits the background page colour, and some of the font colours are too bright when on a white background.
Quote from: Biscuitician;973768That said, I've never been 100% convinced that playing a typical starfleet crew (which this seems to be) really works. There's a lot of crew spaces to fill for one thing so you'll need a half decent sized group. Plus someone has to be captain and boss everyone else around - or the GM plays the captain and bosses everyone else around.
I have found Star Trek games work best when each player controls more than one character (although usually not at the same time). I try to break down the primary characters based on who tends to be involved in shipboard action (helmsman, navigator, engineer, communications officer) and who tends to be planetside (captain, science officer, medical officer, security chief). Obviously the "planetside" characters also have opportunities aboard the ship as well, but this is the general breakdown and allows everyone to have something to do at all times; it also supports A-plot and B-plot as often occurred on the show. That is, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and some security guys are on the planet dealing with whatever it is; meanwhile aboard the
Enterprise Scotty takes command and the bridge crew deals with the intruder/ionic storm/mysterious energy sucking creatures.
As for the "bossing around" issue, I've never had that problem because I wouldn't play Star Trek with players who don't understand that the captain has final say except on medical matters. In fact, that is a player issue, not a game issue, as I expect you'd have the same problem in any party-oriented game where someone will be more assertive and stubborn about getting his way. Generally that would be the player who isn't invited back next time.
Quote from: RPGPundit;972621So, we often hear gamers complain that "product (line) X is too expensive!", almost as often as we hear publishers or game designers complain that RPG-gamers are too cheap.
But are there certain books that you think are a crazy value for the money? Where either because of sheer amount of content, or quality of content, their sale price is insanely good?
Which books are those, and why do you think they're such a good value?
Basically, all of the Vajra Enterprises (http://vajraenterprises.com/) books, but especially Fates Worse Than Death;).
Quote from: Dumarest;973763Party of one, your table is ready. ;)
I've been watching Enterprise, having missed it the first time around, and the more I watch, the more I am convinced it was actually meant to be a parody of Star Trek, along the lines of GalaxyQuest. Only official
The Pathfinder RPG. A full colour 576 page, hardcover book for $50? That's a spectacular deal!
Quote from: JeremyR;973831I've been watching Enterprise, having missed it the first time around, and the more I watch, the more I am convinced it was actually meant to be a parody of Star Trek, along the lines of GalaxyQuest. Only official
Some channel was rerunning it recently, I don't know why, and I took another look, again I don't know why, and it's just not good in any respect. I mean, I like Scott Bakula, I saw him perform in a musical once, and Jolene Blalock has a body that won't stop, but I can't even watch more than a couple of minutes before I have to change the channel. The one I just looked at had a Klingon on Earth in whatever century, way before Earth ever encountered Klingons, hanging out in a grain elevator and blowing up some other aliens who were never on Earth in that era, and then getting shot by a farmer. Even the special effects were bad.
Another one that came to mind would be Delving Deeper (by the gods, that name bugs me) and White Box : Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game. Both are clones of OD&D (DD more OD&D WH:FMAG more Swords & Wiz) that are sold at cost, or very close to it. Think the printed rules in both cases are under $5. If you are patient, you can get a free shipping coupon from Lulu.
*edit- WB:FMAG is under $7 on amazon.
Basically every RPG book by German publisher Pegasus.
Examples:
Cthulhu 7th Edition (https://www.amazon.de/Cthulhu-Grundregelwerk-Howard-Ph-Lovecraft/dp/3957890071) 19.95 €
Hardcover 430 pages full color
7th Sea 2nd Edition (https://www.amazon.de/7te-See-Grundregelwerk-Hardcover/dp/3957891051/) 19.95 €
Hardcover 314 pages full color
Shadowrun 5th Edition (https://www.amazon.de/Shadowrun-Regelbuch-5-Tobias-Hamelmann/dp/3941976672/) 19.95 €
Hardcover 498 pages full color
Shadowrun 5th Edition (https://www.amazon.de/Shadowrun-Regelbuch-Softcover-Tobias-Hamelmann/dp/3957890314/) 9.95 €
Softcover 489 pages full color
All prices including tax. And this is not an Amazon deal - book prices in Germany are fixed.
I have issues when it comes to PDF pricing. It's really worth nothing more than what the Author/Creator thinks it's worth. Other than time and effort, which are ephemeral, there's no other real costs typically associated with it.
But a hard bound book, of any stripe, that has costs that the author/company often has to pay to put the product out there. I dunno.
A PDF is real worth nothing more than the purchaser is willing to pay for it. Unfortunately all of the pre-printing costs are the same for a PDF as they are for a hardcopy book, the only costs really lacking are the paper, ink and binding.
After all you are just buying access to information and in the digital age all information should be free. Certainly creative types should put their work out there for free and be happy they have an audience. As for editing, layout, product promotion and all of that, it is epemeral with no real costs.
/sarcasm
Quote from: Christopher Brady;973965I have issues when it comes to PDF pricing. It's really worth nothing more than what the Author/Creator thinks it's worth. Other than time and effort, which are ephemeral, there's no other real costs typically associated with it.
But a hard bound book, of any stripe, that has costs that the author/company often has to pay to put the product out there. I dunno.
I have issues too.
£12 for Star Trek was fine for me, but really anything over a tenner and forget it. I cannot reconcile £20 for 13th age at all.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;973965I have issues when it comes to PDF pricing. It's really worth nothing more than what the Author/Creator thinks it's worth. Other than time and effort, which are ephemeral, there's no other real costs typically associated with it.
But a hard bound book, of any stripe, that has costs that the author/company often has to pay to put the product out there. I dunno.
PDFs have the same pre-production cost as a regular book. The cost of art, editing and layout doesn't go away simply because it is available in two formats.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
I paid £12 for Star Trek on pdf. That price point was a major reason why I decided to buy it.
Generally I prefer print. PDF technology is still not quite there IMO, plus my tablet's battery is likely on the way out and I don't really want to buy another one (tablet, not battery as it can't be replaced).
A lot of the games that hit the market these days are the result of a Kickstarter. I think 7th Sea got John Wick close to a million buckeroos.
Consequently, your pdf's of these games, for which the pdf is really a happy by product, should be half the price they are charging currently. John Wick does NOT need to be charging £25 (or thereabouts) for a game that was funded and them some.
PDF's don't have the print and publishing and shipping costs that paper does. I get that there are costs involved in the product itself, that's fine, but that's a one time cost. Once done, it's done for every copy that will be sold.
No game needs to be more expensive than Trek. £20 for a pdf in almost all cases, including these kickstarter games, is a nonsense IMO.
That's the cold hard reality as far as I'm concerned. I'm all for supporting creators and their content, but I don't give a damn about whether the CEO of DTRPG makes money, he's not a content creator.
EDIT: if the argument is that lower price points undercut the sales of print, well that's too bad. If you don't want that to happen, don't try using both formats. That would be a case of having one's cake and wanting to eat it too. I don't see it as an excuse for overcharging people.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;974263Let's take a moment to analyze this:
1. The labor of the artists and writers don't count as "real" costs for the publisher.
2. The printing costs DO count as "real" costs for the publisher.
Why? It can't be the labor of the person delivering the books, or the person running the printing press, or the person who made the paper, or the person who made the ink, or the person who planted the trees that were used to make the paper. Because we have, after all, established that all labor costs are ephemeral and ultimately just up to whatever the person performing the labor thinks that labor is worth.
So what is this mystical "real cost" which imbibes the paper?
PDF has zero
marginal cost.
Every print copy has an individual distribution cost - and POD has an individual production cost.
Personally I tend to buy a hardcopy, even if I find myself in practice mostly running off a pdf. It seems more real when I can hold it!
Quote from: Justin Alexander;974263Let's take a moment to analyze this:
1. The labor of the artists and writers don't count as "real" costs for the publisher.
2. The printing costs DO count as "real" costs for the publisher.
Why? It can't be the labor of the person delivering the books, or the person running the printing press, or the person who made the paper, or the person who made the ink, or the person who planted the trees that were used to make the paper. Because we have, after all, established that all labor costs are ephemeral and ultimately just up to whatever the person performing the labor thinks that labor is worth.
So what is this mystical "real cost" which imbibes the paper?
Mythical is exactly what it isn't... Think about what happens as demand increases for one versus the other and you should be able to see the fantastic difference.
Quote from: DavetheLost;973980A PDF is real worth nothing more than the purchaser is willing to pay for it. Unfortunately all of the pre-printing costs are the same for a PDF as they are for a hardcopy book, the only costs really lacking are the paper, ink and binding.
After all you are just buying access to information and in the digital age all information should be free. Certainly creative types should put their work out there for free and be happy they have an audience. As for editing, layout, product promotion and all of that, it is epemeral with no real costs.
/sarcasm
Here's the thing, most who put in promotional work and professional layout (again, MOST, NOT ALL) work, or pay for it, they usually plan to sell a hard copy. But a pure PDF product? Most do it by hand. Which is TIME. Again, ephemeral, it's up to the PRODUCER to determine the price.
Promotion? Well, that depends on how it's done, if you go to say a site like this and BUY a banner, which is what? 25-50 per month? That IS a cost to be recouped, but nothing that puts you several sites, like Paizo, TBP and many others, and that sort of budget is out of most PDF makers range. But depending on how much you think you can sell, again, determines the price. A choice the game maker decides, often not a set cost.
It's not the customer, not ME, who decides what it's initial worth is. The only thing I decide is whether or not I agree with the PDF maker's assessment and give them my money. So really, saying free, or 5USD or a 1000USD per PDF is 'cheap' depending on the RPG developer making the game.
But an actual printing job, which requires multiple test printings, and then a full print run? That's got a SET cost, which is part of the price. Most text books, which is what an RPG is technically, are not under $80 each, for a full color hard back at near 600 pages, those run up in the $100+ range. So if you can get a hard cover, glossy paged with full colour work that's solid and durable, and under 100USD, you've got a steal on your hands.
Quote from: Biscuitician;974266A lot of the games that hit the market these days are the result of a Kickstarter. I think 7th Sea got John Wick close to a million buckeroos.
Consequently, your pdf's of these games, for which the pdf is really a happy by product, should be half the price they are charging currently. John Wick does NOT need to be charging £25 (or thereabouts) for a game that was funded and them some.
PDF's don't have the print and publishing and shipping costs that paper does. I get that there are costs involved in the product itself, that's fine, but that's a one time cost. Once done, it's done for every copy that will be sold.
No game needs to be more expensive than Trek. £20 for a pdf in almost all cases, including these kickstarter games, is a nonsense IMO.
Product prices are not determined by feelz when actual business people are involved in setting them. There is a great deal more to setting an appropriate price than what people involved "feel" like it should be. Every product needs to have a return on investment that is at least defensibly comparable to the next best alternative use of the resources. For example, suppose I have a hypothetical minimum monthly income requirement of $2,000 post-tax from my work. Maybe this is because I need to pay rent and buy food. Maybe it's because the alternative use of lazing around reading and not working is worth $2,000 a month to me. Maybe it's because I could sink the time into another pursuit that would earn me close to $2,000. Maybe there's a man with a gun pressed to my head and he wants me to make $2,000 a month to keep breathing.
Whatever the creator's rationale and however defensible or stupid you think it is, this number exists and it exists for everyone. Not everyone
realizes it exists until they get a ROI that's well below it and decide that they don't want to keep doing this, but minimally competent business people figure out this number before they start working.
The creator then invests the time and money necessary to create the product. Many creators will price their individual labor hours at zero dollars per hour, but artists, editors, designers, and other necessary components of the process are rarely so cavalier. There will be a production cost for the product. This production cost is then subtracted from the gross, after which a 15%-40% subtraction is made for taxes depending on one's location, and the remainder is then divided by the time required to create it to get a return-per-time-unit-invested. In the example case, I'd divide the net by the months I took to write it and if the net is not $2,000/month, I need to either stop making products like this or stop pricing products like this.
Given predicted sales of X units, whether they come in the form of Y Kickstarter preorders + Z retail orders or entirely as DTRPG retail sales, (X * Profit)/months to make => $2,000 or I done goofed. Either I have left too much money on the table from those X sales or the pricing for my goods is too inelastic to support the minimal necessary profit margin per sale. If I was really foolish I might never have run the numbers at all to realize that X sales at a given profit per sale was mathematically incapable of giving me the necessary ROI, or I might not even understand the market well enough to realize that X sales was my likely number.
Thus, when I price my paper books and PDFs, at a minimum I'll be pricing them to get me my required ROI. If it turns out the customers refuse to buy at that price, then that's a mistake that actually happened at the very start of this project, when I failed to realize that my sales at a given price point wouldn't cover my minimum profit requirements. Of course, if I'm a prudent seller, I'll be pricing my wares to where I think the sweet spot is on the demand curve, optimizing total income by getting the most sales possible at the highest price that is practical. But if it's simply a question of why I don't slash PDF prices because of their zero marginal cost, in a very real sense, it's because marginal cost has got very little to do with my minimum required product ROI.
I don't really understand why anyone would debate or complain or disbelieve a price for an RPG, whatever the format. If you want it bad enough you'll pay up to whatever limit you've set for yourself. If the publisher sets his price too high, he'll soon find out and either find a way to lower the price or go out of business altogether if he can't lower the price and no one will pay what he asks. Either way, it's the publisher who takes the risk and reaps the reward. I don't walk into Barnes & Noble and tell them Charles Scribner's Sons is charging too much for The Great Gatsby .
Quote from: Christopher Brady;974384..Most do it by hand...
:confused:
All books are laid out by someone and it takes time and skill to do so. I have no idea what you're going on about here. It is rather baffling. Do you think people don't deserve to be compensated fairly for their labour, which is composed of their time?
It's not baffling, it's the usual logic that Cupcake follows;).
Quote from: SineNomine;974398Product prices are not determined by feelz when actual business people are involved in setting them.
Whether or not that's true, it isn't what I said, at all.
Look, noone disputes there are some costs involved in creating pdfs. All I'm saying is that I'm not prepared to pay what seems to be the norm when it comes to asking price. £20 for a pdf is too much.
You are free to charrge what you like, I have no problem with that. But IMO you'll get more custom if you ask a lower price, as was the case with the recent star trek game. Had they asked the same for that as they do for all their other games (and I don't know why there's no parity), I wouldn't have given the game a second thought.
Again YMMV
Quote from: Dumarest;974464I don't really understand why anyone would debate or complain or disbelieve a price for an RPG, whatever the format. If you want it bad enough you'll pay up to whatever limit you've set for yourself.
That's just a poor argument. There's all sorts of reasons why people don't pony up the asking price for a product they might otherwise want. They might prioritise it differently as a luxury they desire according to their available funds.
I'm sorry if you don't understand taht, but it's not a great mystery.
The problem with pdfs for me is that, as much as I cognitively understand there is work involved in creating the content and putting the PDF together the end result of any transaction involving PDFs feels unsatisfying to me. I don't enjoy reading them, and I don't enjoy owning them in any way. I can't get past the feeling that I'm buying nothing...I have a hard time getting myself to spend any money at all on pdfs. That's flat out stupid, I know. But it's the fundamental wall creators have to break through with me. The sad fact is that I pretty much don't even give a thought to buying a PDF if it's more than about $5 and even that small amount is a barrier for me. Pdfs are essentially the "free bonus items" I get when I drop the bucks on dead trees.
As far as under-priced products go I don't think anyone could argue the BFRPG books aren't a ridiculously good value...
Quote from: Biscuitician;974513You are free to charrge what you like, I have no problem with that. But IMO you'll get more custom if you ask a lower price, as was the case with the recent star trek game.
At that point it's just a matter of debating what the demand curve looks like. You propose that the optimum total return is at X dollars while a publisher might think it exists at X+Y dollars. While the consumer has a better idea of their own demand curve, the (competent) publisher has a much better idea of the market's overall curve. This is not to say that they never misprice or that every product has the same curve, but publishers have a lot more riding on getting it right than the customers do.
If you're not prepared to pay the price that publishers want for their product, you're not in the market for the product. There's nothing wrong with that, as we're all simply not in the market for a vast range of goods. But there's no reason for publishers to pursue you as a customer if there's no prospect of getting an adequate return from your business, especially if trying to win you obliges them to leave a large amount of money on the table from existing customers who
will pay an adequate price. Competing on price in a luxury market is a terrible idea, and will do much more damage to your bottom line than simple piracy will.
Quote from: Biscuitician;974514That's just a poor argument. There's all sorts of reasons why people don't pony up the asking price for a product they might otherwise want. They might prioritise it differently as a luxury they desire according to their available funds.
I'm sorry if you don't understand taht, but it's not a great mystery.
That means they don't want it that bad. You really have a hard time comprehending even the most basic ideas.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;973996PDFs have the same pre-production cost as a regular book. The cost of art, editing and layout doesn't go away simply because it is available in two formats.
That's true, but it has far less post-production costs. Like, almost zero, apart from what the middleman takes.
While I love to have the physical books in my hand, I've gone digital in my old age. I've got shelves of RPGs all over the house...
I think as POD has become more expensive and pdfs have followed suit (especially for the bigger companies). People generally like a price hike if they think they can get away with it.
Another factor is that a lot of older products that are now being turned into pdfs already have the art, editing, and layout already paid for. So all that's really needed is the preparation (and cost) to make it pdf ready. But if you look at the costs of some of these products, they are still very expensive.
Sure, you're buying the intellectual property and that's totally fair enough, but given the bulk of the costs have already been paid for then why are they still so expensive? Gah!
Quote from: The Exploited.;975425While I love to have the physical books in my hand, I've gone digital in my old age. I've got shelves of RPGs all over the house...
I find I still need hardcopy to play, though I can just about run an adventure via text-chat from a pdf if I print the maps. However giant hardbacks a la D&D are a pain; I'm hugely loving my Digest-sized White Star softbacks. All games should be that size!
Quote from: RPGPundit;975406That's true, but it has far less post-production costs. Like, almost zero, apart from what the middleman takes.
That is true, and I think there should be a price difference to account for that, but my point is it isn't no cost. You can lose money setting PDFs too low because there is still substantial money on the pre-production end and PDF sales are still part of getting a return. Personally I am not a fan of setting PDF prices high, and I try to keep my own as reasonable as possible (even doing occasional loss leaders) but I do think fans sometimes get the wrong impression about PDFs and how they can't really escape from that pre-production cost.
Quote from: S'mon;975433I find I still need hardcopy to play, though I can just about run an adventure via text-chat from a pdf if I print the maps. However giant hardbacks a la D&D are a pain; I'm hugely loving my Digest-sized White Star softbacks. All games should be that size!
Yeah, nothing beats having the physical books (even just for speed but I do like the digest size as well. Savage Worlds is a great one for this... :)
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;975446That is true, and I think there should be a price difference to account for that, but my point is it isn't no cost. You can lose money setting PDFs too low because there is still substantial money on the pre-production end and PDF sales are still part of getting a return. Personally I am not a fan of setting PDF prices high, and I try to keep my own as reasonable as possible (even doing occasional loss leaders) but I do think fans sometimes get the wrong impression about PDFs and how they can't really escape from that pre-production cost.
I think there will always be a certain bias that people have, saying that it's only a 'virtual product' and thus should cost way less than an actual physical book. The trick is getting into that 'Goldilocks' price zone with the pdf. Which is not that easy when you look at the inconsistency of pricing.
The Doctor Who RPG Humble Bundle, that just started and lasts 11 more days:
https://www.humblebundle.com/books/doctor-who-rpg-books
$1 for the RPG, a couple adventures, a couple supplements, an Android/iPhone game, and a coupon for print versions at Cubicle 7's store. And if you pay $8 or $15, you get all that plus a whole pile more.