Quote from: Zalman on April 03, 2025, 07:32:38 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 29, 2025, 08:37:57 PMMy game does something similar.  There are opposed attack and defense rolls.  If the attack roll beats the defense roll, then the difference is the damage.

I vaguely recall another mechanic, not sure which game, with a percentile attack roll.  If you get a hit then damage is the sum of the two digits.

That's a cool percentile mechanic!

I used opposed attack/defense rolls the same way for a while, but my players (and me!) got into the weeds quickly switching back and forth from attack to defense to attack to defense -- players getting confused as to which they were rolling that moment. And every player rolling multiple times per round was slow for us as well.

So we switched to a single roll combining attack and defense, while still using the margin of success as damage. It's worked amazingly well for us (and surprisingly the consensus at the table is that it feels more realistic.)

I went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

One thing I did that sped up play a bit is that each character has only one attack roll and one defense roll in a round.  The attack roll applies to all attacks if there are multiple, and the defense roll applies to all defense checks.  Sometimes that computation is slightly different, e.g. melee weapon skill doesn't protect against ranged attack, but the die only rolls once.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMI went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

1) is tricky. Since it's a single roll for attack/defense, I try to keep in mind that whatever action a character takes, it also includes defending themselves from all types of attacks. So, a fighter using a "melee" action is not only trying to avoid blows from the guy next to him, but also trying to dodge any incoming arrows, fend off spells, etc.

To some extent this is aided by the conceit that magic in my world is sort of Thundarrian -- it makes noise, and light, and can be physically avoided to some nebulous degree. This works best when I provide vivid sensory descriptions of spellcasting.

For cases where a character is being attacked but doesn't want to return fire (as it were), they can use a "dodge" or "willpower" type action. And if you're indecisive, then your opponent might determine your action. For example, a character that "waits to see what they do" will wind up using "dodge" if it's an incoming missile attack, and "melee" if they get charged.


2) we don't do turn-based; all combatants roll simultaneously. Attacks are resolved from highest to lowest, so level of success also determines initiative.


3) yeah, totally. I moved to armor/defense as damage reduction, which adds a slight extra step to the damage calculation, but players seem quite fond of tracking their own DR and announcing it each time they take damage!

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMOne thing I did that sped up play a bit is that each character has only one attack roll and one defense roll in a round.  The attack roll applies to all attacks if there are multiple, and the defense roll applies to all defense checks.

Great idea. As noted above we use a single simultaneous roll so this happens naturally for us as well. (The full system I use is posted over here: https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/the-smor-system/ )

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMI went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

Not the original respondent but I'm hoping/planning to use something similar  (but sequential instead of simultaneous) so...

1) If there is no way for the other combatant to attack then a roll in their favor is simply a dodge. 
2) Initiative in this type of situation still affects movement/placement/surprise so I'd personally just leave it at that. 
3) No good way around that one unfortunately without complicating the calculation.  The obvious way is that you'd have to keep track of that purely defensive bonus separately and subtract it after the fact.  This is quite clunky and inelegant though.

Seriously, it sounds like you guys want to play Rolemaster

Also, Artesia has a system that is similar to this. If I remember correctly, it is attack minus defense roll, difference is damage as you mentioned. (I can check if it included some neat solutions when I get home)

One mechanic I'm fond of is Silhouette's dice mechanic.

It uses standard d6's where you roll a number of dice equal to the skill rank (0 is roll two and use the lower) and then use the highest. If multiple dice are 6s use 6 +1 per additional six rolled.

Why I like it; I feel it better models how skill performance works. Novices tend towards erratic results (including being as good as a master if they're lucky) while greater skill results in more consistently higher results with occasional (multiple sixes) superior results.

The other reason I like it is that it keeps the resulting check results small (typically single digits) and exceptionally narrow for opposed rolls like combat... which makes their damage system where you multiply your margins of success (typically 1-2, sometimes 3) by a damage multiplier and compare it to a threshold for the damage taken.

Even with dumbed down modern math most people willing to play a ttrpg can multiply by 2 or 3, after which it's just compare to one of three thresholds for effects which keeps combat pretty quick.