Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI have to wonder how much of that is due to an influx of immigration of dissatisfied RPG.net users, myself included.  Has there really been an increase in negativity here?  Could it be that there's simply less agreement on a certain style of gaming as the user base here has grown?

I have to say that I've been finding the prevailing attitude at this site very refreshing.  It's been challenging, with people expressing deeply help and conflicting beliefs about their preferences in roleplaying games, but there is an active demand to explain and defend one's self, or at least stand up for one's own beliefs.  In other words, there's a pretty high concentration of toughtful discussion, without the artificial pleasantries of enforced civility preventing honest exchanges of ideas.  Ironically, the absence of heavy-handed moderation doesn't seem to be inviting an atmosphere of unbridled un-civility -- quite the contrary, I see regular agreements to disagree here.

!i!

You may be very correct. It may be that people leaving Big Purple for here are carrying in the suppressed anger and festering hate that's been locked in to long, and dumping it after a while here. If so, it's a good thing. This is a great place, for exactly the reasons you note.

-clash

Quote from: King of Old SchoolQFT.

What TPTB at the other place don't get is that banning overt expressions of hostility doesn't ban hostility -- it just encourages that hostility to manifest in a passive-aggressive manner, increasing the overall level of negativity (and douchebaggery).

I don't get game hate either.

KoOS

Exactly!

-clash

I'd also say that I'm very pleasantly surprised by what I've found here.  Bluntly, I expected this forum to be to some extent a redoubt of bitter grognardry, and I was wrong.  Even people who've been rather unpleasantly grognardy in other venues in the past are demonstrating a tremendous level of broadmindedness and goodwill (and the one obvious exception departed soon after I arrived).

Even when I vehemently disagree with the Pundit on many many points, I can see that this place is serving to raise his standing in the community.

KoOS

Quote from: jrientsI think part of the reason why this site works is that by removing the taboo from "Dude, you suck" and "Dude, your favorite game sucks" we have removed the titillation around implying such things.  There's just not the same thrill.

Even more importantly, by not preventing people from saying "Your game sucks!" through threat of moderation, when someone does say it, the declaration can be refuted.  I've already had one experience here where I called someone on a "Your game sucks!" statement, and the result was a much more constructive criticism without either of us being forced to act like we agreed with each other.

This site definitely feels a little "rough & tumble" to me, but there also seems to be a sense of fraternity here, where our shared love of RPGs allows us be open in our differing opinions of how they should be played.  In other words, I hope the presence of the likes of me isn't degrading this site -- I think this is a pretty productive place thus far.

!i!

QuoteThis site definitely feels a little "rough & tumble" to me, but there also seems to be a sense of fraternity here, where our shared love of RPGs allows us be open in our differing opinions of how they should be played.

QFT.
I am of the stern opinion, that this is orders of magnitude more valuable than enforced or self-enforced "harmony".

Quote from: flyingmiceYou may be very correct. It may be that people leaving Big Purple for here are carrying in the suppressed anger and festering hate that's been locked in to long, and dumping it after a while here. If so, it's a good thing. This is a great place, for exactly the reasons you note.

-clash

When I'm snarky around here that's usually the reason.  I'd love to post more here...I'm by nature a lurker, but I try to post in every thread I read all the way through here.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad

Would it surprise you to know that I don't have you on my ignore list anywhere?

Though I disagree with you taste wise, I don't find you to be unreasoning.

I was just thinking about that, CS.

I have only one name on my ignore list. Strong disagreements and passionate debate make the web an interesting place. You have to be a real sicko or whackjob to make me not want to even see what you have to say. I usually try to keep in mind that - with rare exception - most of us would probably get along just fine in real life.

What I like about this site is that I think this site is about folks playing games and then talking about them, rather than just talking about games.

Now, talking about games - theory etc is all well and good, and I've learnt a lot from it, but I think that's where a lot of the hate comes from. You hate a particular playstyle, which translates to you hate a particular game, which translates to you hate a particular player/poster.

I'm sure over time the same thing will happen here, only without the disguised hostility...unless we learn not to invest too much in the way how we view and play games.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWhat I like about this site is that I think this site is about folks playing games and then talking about them, rather than just talking about games.

Hey, maybe you'd like The Forge then?    What's their motto or mantra about no theory without real gaming, somebody here has to know The Enemy well enough to give it? In fact I'm pretty sure Settembrini quoted it to me once way back.

Quote from: blakkieHey, maybe you'd like The Forge then?    What's their motto or mantra about no theory without real gaming, somebody here has to know The Enemy well enough to give it? In fact I'm pretty sure Settembrini quoted it to me once way back.

While I'm undercover at the Forge I could poison the kool aid with proxy juice... but really blakkie, we could all do with a little less investment in the way how we view/play games right?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWhat I like about this site is that I think this site is about folks playing games and then talking about them, rather than just talking about games.

In large part, yes.

S John Ross once told some people he was talking to that in the days when he wrote for GURPS and was on the GURPS mailing list, you'd get rules questions, and criticisms. And he said he could always tell the questions that came from playing the game, and those coming from just reading it. If you think about games you've read and played, you'll notice that some things look like a problem when you read the book, but turn out good in play, and vice versa.

So it's pretty easy, I think, to judge this stuff on forums, too. I long ago picked JackSpencerJr as a BNG - a Bitter Non-Gamer. He denied it strenuously, but it turned out it was true, he hadn't gamed in years and didn't really want to. He's back among us now, so maybe he changed his mind, I dunno.

There are a few like him on various sites. Usually they don't have game hate so much as gamer hate. I'm a bit puzzled by the hate of games - if I don't like a game, I just don't play it, and forget about it, and maybe occasionally mock it, but I don't crap on about it. But I guess I can understand it on some level. But hate of gamers themselves? What the fuck?

That's what really pisses me off - the hate of gamers themselves. I get that sometimes from people's posts. You get the guys who say, "I don't roleplay to socialise", or who come up with elaborate theories of roleplaying to explain how we're all fuckwits. I just don't get it. There's contempt dripping from their every word. You see them here on this forum, too, guys who quite plainly think that 99% of the people they're talking to are utter fuckwits. Yeah, maybe we are - fuck off, then, leave us alone.

I like gamers. A lot are crazy, but crazy-interesting, not crazy-scary. I like the dice-throwing and the storming out and the laughter and the stupid character names and the munchkins and the immersionists and the Captain Teflon Psychos and the Drowlesbianstripperninjas and the pointless arguments over rules and the "aha!" moment when something from session #2 shows up in session #40 and the nights when you don't roleplay but just sit and watch a crap movie. I love all that shit.

I just don't get why others wouldn't. Or I do get that people don't like the same things and people as me - but then why hang around?

Now I am gong to touch on a taboo subject. I am going to ask the question no-one is allowed to ask online: "How is it that you have so much time to be on these forums arguing with strangers?"

My only guess is that frankly the internet has got some lonely losers* on it. People with no friends, no lover, no job, no prospect of getting them, sitting alone at home tapping away at their keyboard. Some of these lonely losers invent conspiracy theories. Some become Bitter Non-Gamers. Most are depressed, and depression is a funny thing - leads people to destroy what is good in their life. "I have no control over my life, but at least I have the power to destroy things." So they engage in hobbies they dislike, with people they have contempt for. It's sad, but that's what happens when you're a lonely loser.

I think we get a lot of lonely losers online, because it's a safe interaction with other humans they can switch on and off with their monitor. Going out of the house and talking to other strangers is scary! Looking for a job or friends or a boyfriend or girlfriend, scary, man! I'll just stay here at home tapping away...

Fucked if I know, really. But anyway, I blame the lonely losers for all the negativity you get in forums. Well, I blame them for a lot of it, anyway. Anyone can spin out and flame shit from time to time.

_____
*Note that a person who lacks something in their life, job, spouse, friends, hobby - is not a "loser" simply because they lack it. A "loser" is one who never seeks these things, just gives up on life. If a person is unemployed, has no spouse, etc, but is happy - then I can't possibly criticise them. But if a person is in the shit, complains about being in the shit, but refuses to budge - then I've got no sympathy. A "loser" is not a person who fails, but a person who doesn't try, ever, for years on end.

QuoteI like gamers. A lot are crazy, but crazy-interesting, not crazy-scary. I like the dice-throwing and the storming out and the laughter and the stupid character names and the munchkins and the immersionists and the Captain Teflon Psychos and the Drowlesbianstripperninjas and the pointless arguments over rules and the "aha!" moment when something from session #2 shows up in session #40 and the nights when you don't roleplay but just sit and watch a crap movie. I love all that shit.

Preach it, brother.  The guys who say they don't play to socialize I usually assume either aren't gaming, because they have no friends, or they play at conventions, game stores, and so on with people they don't really know and make no effort to know.  Gaming is socializing.  I play with my friends.  If I play with new people and we keep gaming, we'll become friends.  Gaming makes friends.

And as for who has time - some of us post when we're supposed to be working.  :cool:

Quote from: JimBobOzNow I am gong to touch on a taboo subject. I am going to ask the question no-one is allowed to ask online: "How is it that you have so much time to be on these forums arguing with strangers?"

Now this is a good question.

Pretty good post btw, but I have to say, I do find Jack's posts pretty interesting  - I was around lurking for the whole "not gaming" issue - and am always surprised to find out that some folks don't game, but still like to discuss gaming...even more weirder is when they make some interesting points (IMHO) about gaming.

Also about this whole negativity thing, I once read a thread on RPGNET about how a games worst enemy was it's fans. Seriously, although I haven't seen it on this site yet, I'm sure this also contirbutes a lot of negativity to forum discussions.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOz"How is it that you have so much time to be on these forums arguing with strangers?"

Because I'm a chronic procrastinator and I use forums like these, in part, as a distraction from real work I should be doing.  When I'm into my work, I post less often.

As for the "gamer hate," the things I hate about many gamers I encounter are the same things I hate about many non-gamers I encounter -- it's just that, in the case of gamers, they directly impact my ability to enjoy gaming.  I'm talking about things like poor social skills, poor personal hygiene, and general dumbassery.  I don't willingly tolerate these traits in my non-gamer socialization, but only in the World of Geek Fallacies am I expected to tolerate them in my gaming.

Also, because I do have an active life outside of gaming (with work, a wife, and plenty of non-gamer friends) I have a lot less tolerance for behaviours that don't jibe with my idea of having fun and, IME, serve to make gaming an object of ridicule and scorn from non-gamers who might otherwise take an interest in the hobby.

KoOS

You know something the Geek Social Fallacies are shit because they take a series of behaviors that I've seen everybody engage in and then label them like they especially apply to geeks when I've seen no such thing.