Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.

With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.

But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.

It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.

Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.

With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.

But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.

It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.

Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

Completely missing the point... not surprising.

The point is not "well, you can buy access for someone else" it's "you never needed to buy access for someone else before, they just used your book."

Remember back when money-grubbing corpos were the bad guys for the Lefties?

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 23, 2022, 11:03:02 AM

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on December 22, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)

D&D is a cooperative game, so much of the pay to win problems wouldn't apply. Is anyone really going to be upset if one of the players in the group shows up to a game with four additional healing potions?

A +5 sword at first level would be annoying but I don't see this as "pay to win" == ruined game. It really depends on how it is implemented. There is a similar problem in any TTRPG if you allow players to give treasure or magic items to each other.

I think people would be upset.  So much noise is made about "player balance" and this is the same issue.  One guy pays for the goodies, gets to do all the interesting stuff because he's just stronger, and everyone else gets to be his sidekicks.  Doesn't sound great to me.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 24, 2022, 05:21:01 PMI think people would be upset.  [...]  One guy pays for the goodies, gets to do all the interesting stuff because he's just stronger, and everyone else gets to be his sidekicks.

It's a common problem in lots of 'free' MMORPGs where players have the option to buy power-ups for cash. But the fact that it's common, yet those games can still be hugely popular, indicates it might be worth the bad press from the company's viewpoint.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 24, 2022, 12:05:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.

Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

Completely missing the point... not surprising.

The point is not "well, you can buy access for someone else" it's "you never needed to buy access for someone else before, they just used your book."

Remember back when money-grubbing corpos were the bad guys for the Lefties?

I remember perfectly. I'm not the one who has shifted on this point. I can check since I've been talking about RPGs online since 1992 - and looking back through my 1992 posts, I don't see anything about TSR being the worst evil. I've never been a communist, but I've always had a healthy skepticism of money-grubbing corporations. I didn't particularly like TSR, but I didn't consider them the worst evil ever. I also don't particularly like WotC, but I don't consider them the worst evil ever.

Money-grubbing is money-grubbing. It's been how corporations have been always. The people who have shifted are those who were fine with all corporate behavior in the past are suddenly now indignant at corporate money-grubbing.


TSR sued multiple companies for copyright infringement just for showing compatibility. WotC seems to be geared up to have a limited license for third parties to use OneD&D material. Yes, it's more limited than was done for WotC's own 3E and 5E, but it's still more open than TSR's 1E and 2E were, and it's also more open than 4E was.

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.

With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.

But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.

It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.

Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

*stunned expression*

You don't actually fucking mean this, do you? Do you not see the point I'm making?

The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'

Jesus, do you even know what Fortnite is? I guarantee that's their business model. And as much as it irks me, it has made Epic a fucking ton of cash.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 09:48:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'

Right. I  agree that it's making money by getting players to pay for cool new options for their character. But I don't think that's wrong to make money this way. It's not inherently stealing or cheating. It can be delivering what players want in a convenient manner.

(1) Most players would be happy to pay a few bucks for a new character option that they want to actually use, or other small things to improve their gaming experience. The issue is value compared to cost.

(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.

(3) However, most players aren't interested in paying $40-$50 for a 200-page hardbound book. That's in large part due to the big up-front cost when they won't use 90% of the content, and also because even if it were cheap, lugging around multiple 200-page manuals and flipping back and forth between them in play is awkward at best.

(4) It's true that *if* they pay the $40-$50 up-front cost, they can spread value by passing the book around to other players. However, this is even more awkward and inconvenient than each player having their own book.


In terms of value for money spent, I don't think it's clear that buying one 200-page hardback book of options and passing it around between players is better value for money than each player paying a few bucks for personal access to only the character options they want in a handy app.


P.S. Merry Christmas! I hope you get some gaming stuff you enjoy. There's plenty out there to like.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2022, 12:04:23 PM
I too am very curious as to what kind of microtransactions they come up with, and whether these will be game-breaking, or purely cosmetic.

Probably they are working on a magnification of D&D Beyond. Beyond has everything they want. Beyond was working on a big update and wotc told them to hold off. So this suggests they are up to something.

So what will likely happen is 6e will come out with minimal print and they will try to push as much as they can into their Beyond knock off. Which will likely have either a tenth the features, or just assets stolen whole cloth from Beyond. Its what wotc does. Expansions with new races and classes will be online only.

Assuming they go that route it might well make the 4e debacle look like a walk in the park in comparison.

Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.

Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 01:58:56 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.

Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.

I guarantee you'll also lose it the moment you use the wrong pronouns and are banned from access to what you paid for "violating terms of service"... because all you really own is a license to access, not the material itself.

Imagine you're a GM with a game to run... "sorry guys, game this week is canceled. I got a seven day ban because I called someone "her" instead of "hir" so I don't have access to my books. Try again next week?"

That'll happen about once before any GM with a microgram of sanity says "shove it" and converts to a system where the whims of the woke can't shut down your ability to run/play.

On the plus side? 4E will no longer be the most hated edition of all time.

If you have the paid D&D Beyond subscription for DMs ($6 I think), you can share content with 50+ people digitally at no charge for them.

I will always prefer in-person gaming and the sharing of books.

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AMA phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

This is kinda besides the point you were trying to make, but lately every time I've played I've had my character entirely written down on a note in my phone. No fancy apps or nothing, just a some notes in my regular note app with all my character's data, including spells and such. So you don't even need an app or printed character sheets. You can run an entire game just from notes on your phone (I was also running a game some of those times).

Granted, this was face to face. But even if I were to play online I imagine I could just have a Word file with my character's notes and campaign notes and such. So just type or copy/paste whatever in the chat. You don't need fancy apps for any of this stuff. That's how necessary these digital services are.

Quote from: VisionStorm on December 25, 2022, 03:17:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AMA phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.

This is kinda besides the point you were trying to make, but lately every time I've played I've had my character entirely written down on a note in my phone. No fancy apps or nothing, just a some notes in my regular note app with all my character's data, including spells and such. So you don't even need an app or printed character sheets. You can run an entire game just from notes on your phone (I was also running a game some of those times).

Granted, this was face to face. But even if I were to play online I imagine I could just have a Word file with my character's notes and campaign notes and such. So just type or copy/paste whatever in the chat. You don't need fancy apps for any of this stuff. That's how necessary these digital services are.

Plus, if you do your own sheet, everything is where you want it and is optimized for how YOU process Information. Personally, I've NEVER had an official sheet that I've been happy with and the ability to rearrange your UI in video games (and remap your controls) is a necessity for my long term enjoyment for all but the simplest games.

Quote from: Omega on December 25, 2022, 01:56:10 AM
So what will likely happen is 6e will come out with minimal print and they will try to push as much as they can into their Beyond knock off. Which will likely have either a tenth the features, or just assets stolen whole cloth from Beyond. Its what wotc does. Expansions with new races and classes will be online only.

Hi, Omega. You're saying that WotC would create a knock-off and steal from D&D Beyond. That sounds like you're unaware that WotC bought D&D Beyond for $146 million earlier this year. (ref) So I think this prediction is partly true, but also significantly off. You were right that WotC did want to have features like D&D Beyond, but they got it by paying for the company - which is the opposite of stealing.

Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 01:58:56 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.

Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.

Well, it's comparable in that it can be compared. They're not the same - there are differences, but those differences can be looked at as value for money. And that value will differ depending on who the customer is.

For me personally, I have 2.5 six foot bookcases full of mostly old RPG books dating back to the 1970s. I keep everything around, so I'd personally be less interested in paying for VTT content. However, I'm not representative of the general market.

The majority of gamers won't be playing the same edition of any game twenty years from now. Essentially all tabletop companies have engaged in the edition treadmill, and many turn over new editions faster than WotC. It's a very small percentage of players who are still actively using decades-old RPG books.

Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 09:48:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.

The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'

Right. I  agree that it's making money by getting players to pay for cool new options for their character. But I don't think that's wrong to make money this way. It's not inherently stealing or cheating. It can be delivering what players want in a convenient manner.

(1) Most players would be happy to pay a few bucks for a new character option that they want to actually use, or other small things to improve their gaming experience. The issue is value compared to cost.

(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.

(3) However, most players aren't interested in paying $40-$50 for a 200-page hardbound book. That's in large part due to the big up-front cost when they won't use 90% of the content, and also because even if it were cheap, lugging around multiple 200-page manuals and flipping back and forth between them in play is awkward at best.

(4) It's true that *if* they pay the $40-$50 up-front cost, they can spread value by passing the book around to other players. However, this is even more awkward and inconvenient than each player having their own book.


In terms of value for money spent, I don't think it's clear that buying one 200-page hardback book of options and passing it around between players is better value for money than each player paying a few bucks for personal access to only the character options they want in a handy app.


P.S. Merry Christmas! I hope you get some gaming stuff you enjoy. There's plenty out there to like.

LOL!  I was going to ask if you were a paid corporate shill, but then I realized that it doesn't matter (if the effect is indistinguishable from corporate shilling, then it doesn't matter if you are paid or not).

So, let's look at what you are suggesting, because it bears no resemblance to the actual conversation.  You are comparing cost/value to buying lots of options at once in a collection (doesn't need to be hard-copy, as DnDBeyond allows the purchasing of all options in a book at once for the price of the book) to buying piecemeal.  First, the economy of scale is an interesting discussion to have.  When does it cost more to buy in bulk than in individual options?  Right now, buying the character-builder parts of the PHB will run you ~$24.  Adding the compendium option (which is all of the text, explanation, the ability to look it all up in the compendium, etc. (which is what buying the book on DnDBeyond gives you) is an additional $20.  Or, you can buy the book for $30.  That's almost 150% the price of the book buying piecemeal.  So even in this case, it costs less to buy in bulk, unless you want less than 33% of the contents of the book, and no ability to search or explanatory texts.

But it gets worse.  Because what is actually being compared is cost vs. free.  That's what "under-monetized" means (and that's WotC's words, not mine)!  What we are talking about is the inability to use content during play if you haven't purchased the privilege of doing so.  Right now, I can add a +5 longsword to my character and play, whether I have bought the DMG (where magic items are listed) or not.  I can even do so in DnDBeyond (because I can use the homebrew construction tools to create one and add it to my character, despite not having the original purchased).  What we are discussing is, with the push to integrate the game within the VTT, the history and experience of the newest corporate hires at WotC, the drop in Hasbro stock, whether the new direction of OneD&D will create a situation where players will need to pay for features that were previously free.  This is especially true if physical books and tools will be de-emphasized (or even restricted) as D&D moves more digital.

Now, I know what your (and junior-shills like Mistwell) immediate response will be: "Well, all of that is speculation; WotC hasn't announced what all this will look like yet."  Which is, in fact, irrelevant.  See, fools (feel free to claim membership if you so desire) are reactive, not proactive.  In every walk of life (business, relationships, war, finance, etc.) those who succeed are those who look ahead, plan for multiple possibilities, try to figure out where things are going rather than where things are at this moment.  I'm pretty sure the people at Kobold Press, the makers of Solasta, the others who plan to make products tangential to D&D, all are preparing for the worst, while hoping for the best.  Only the drooling fool bumbles along without assessing what the worst that can happen might be, and trying to mitigate the effects should the worst come to pass.

So, why don't you address the actual topic?  Do you support the possibility that integration with a VTT will create an ecosystem where previously free or easily integrated material will now come with a monetary cost?  And the fact that WotC hasn't announced the specifics yet is NOT an argument against this discussion (well, it might be to a fool or shill... pick one).  We are discussing possible trends and the possible consequences.

And before anyone comments that WotC wouldn't be so stupid as to go down the same road as 4e all over again, it's pretty obvious that they are that stupid.  Everything so far reads like WotC will once again attempt to destroy or regulate 3rd party integration, flood the game with content (so that they can charge for it), and ignore the fans and the actual mechanics of the game.  We are about to see 4e redux...

P.S.  Oh, and each of your 4 bullet points in the original quote are very cavalier with appeals to what "most players" do or don't want.  Citations needed...