For the first time in a very long while, the people in charge of D&D are not game designers. And they don't think of D&D as an RPG.
#dnd5e #onednd
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 14, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
I think that they will be extremely popular - as they are going after players who would love to pay .99 a pop to add cool cosmetic touches to their PC's virtual mini.
In fact I think that the OneVTT will initially go over so well that several VTT will go under as much of the VTT 5e player base will move to the WotC VTT ecosystem.
But if a player spends 3-4 bucks personalizing his virtual mini, I doubt very much that it will go down well if said PC dies early on in a campaign. I think that the 'much ado about nothing' crowd are vastly underestimating the changes to player and gaming culture within the OneVTT environment this kind of thing will generate, and percolate out into wider WotC 5e play.
Normally edition changes fragment the player base between old and new editions. It will be interesting to see if the 5e player base, and maybe even the hobby at large fragments between those who primarily play on VTT, vs those who primarily play live...
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PMYes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
You can already spend money on DriveThruRPG for character art and there is nothing conceptually different between a player spending $5 to unlock a new class and the DM spending $30 to buy Unearthed Arcana to get the rules some new classes. So microtransactions already exist in RPGs, WotC is just trying to move the spending into one location.
The more I think about it, the more this looks like the only way that WotC can undo the damage caused by the OGL. While people may still be able to write other games under the OGL, if everyone is playing on the OneVTT then all those OGL games won't be usable to the majority of players.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 15, 2022, 07:23:52 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PMYes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
You can already spend money on DriveThruRPG for character art and there is nothing conceptually different between a player spending $5 to unlock a new class and the DM spending $30 to buy Unearthed Arcana to get the rules some new classes. So microtransactions already exist in RPGs, WotC is just trying to move the spending into one location.
The more I think about it, the more this looks like the only way that WotC can undo the damage caused by the OGL. While people may still be able to write other games under the OGL, if everyone is playing on the OneVTT then all those OGL games won't be usable to the majority of players.
Depends on the quality of the VTT. There are way better ones than Roll20 these days (ex. Foundry blows it out of the water in pretty much every category).
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
They will love it (initially). The people that enjoy playing Mobile games have established this already. It's oblivious to the non-Mobile gaming crowd, which is likely 99% of this forum. As a fairly hardcore gamer, that plays popular stuff, the money that mobile gaming with its predatory microstransactions *DWARFS* the money generated by "regular" AAA and AA titles on sales alone. Which is why most AA and AAA games now have microtransactions in them.
D&D is now following suit.
The thing I contend is that there is ZERO chance that WotC can develop tools robust enough to satisfy long-term D&D players. This is an issue with videogames as it is - and WotC does not have the talent, nor the resources to do it.
Skyrim as an example, is STILL one of the most popular games ever. GTA5 as well. Creating tools that will satisfy TTRPG mechanics longterm is astoundingly complex. Of course they might be able to pull it off in short-term iterative bursts... but the talent/funding issue is a huge problem.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 14, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
I'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
I will restate a comment I heard from a fairly left-leaning bunch: 'I'm not giving WotC another dime.'
I'm sure this might be popular with a very small handful of whales, the same kind of people who prop up mobile games. But I think the vast majority of RPG fans are going to look at this and laugh hysterically.
Quote from: tenbones on December 16, 2022, 07:15:08 AM
The thing I contend is that there is ZERO chance that WotC can develop tools robust enough to satisfy long-term D&D players. This is an issue with videogames as it is - and WotC does not have the talent, nor the resources to do it.
The WotC executive looks at the ragged but tough band of long-term D&D players. Then he look towards the opposite horizon. His gaze wanders for a while on the assembled horde of general population who have credit cards. A smirk forms on his face, and he shouts in his raspy whiskey-and-cigar voice, "Let loose the microtransactions!"
It's all about the churn.
Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:15:05 AMI'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
Since they haven't announced anything concrete we can only speculate. But, as I pointed out earlier, many of the cosmetic items for gamers are already available. You can pay for character sketches (something I've seen since the 1980s) for your virtual character sheet. As for miniatures, take a look a HeroForge.com. This is a company that builds custom miniatures (for 3d printing) based on choosing from a variety of poses, clothing, and weapon options. If this was centralized within the VTT app, the software could create a new miniature design automatically based on the equipment that is on the character sheet. The way these typically work is that the base game includes a small selection of generic items but you can purchase more exotic or cool looking items for money.
In addition to cosmetic, there is always the option for Hasbro to charge a player a small fee for each character class or 'species" that the character wants to play. Either with cash or some sort of virtual currency. And if you want to go further, allowing the purchase of in-game items (potions for instance) is also an option. Remember that the VTT is controlling the amount of gold that a player can earn so this gold can be treated as a virtual currency within the app. Take a look at the documents for WotC Adventurer's League organized play to see what it might look like:
https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/ddal_fr_dmsguidev11_0.pdf
As Chris24601 pointed out though, this is entirely dependent on whether or not Hasbro is willing to invest in creating (or buying) the software needed for such integration.
Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 14, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
I'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
I was thinking more like magic swords and spells, new/rare abilities/skills/feats, etc. Stuff that would make your character bullet proof.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
The VTT players will fork out for it if the price is right. I think they have been using Drive-Thru and Beyond as a testbed for this whole upcomming mess. Watching how sales go and gauging just how much they can milk the suckers for.
If they can focus it all into apps then they can completely fuck over everyone. I doubt they can pull that off. But expect apps to be a thing somewhere. Habro alreasy knows these are goos sucker scams from their board game experiments. Buy a game that cant be played without an app. Discontinur the app so the games a brick. Then a few years later sell the game again.
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 16, 2022, 10:47:16 AM
Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 14, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
I'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
I was thinking more like magic swords and spells, new/rare abilities/skills/feats, etc. Stuff that would make your character bullet proof.
I half want them to make D&D pay-to-win. I wonder how many parties will fall apart because the rich kid has an overpowered paladin, and everyone else waits in the background for him to win every encounter.
Of course, his longsword +5 at first level will only be overpowered for a year. Then he needs to "invest" in a mace +8.
I too am very curious as to what kind of microtransactions they come up with, and whether these will be game-breaking, or purely cosmetic.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 16, 2022, 09:56:17 AM
Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:15:05 AMI'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
Since they haven't announced anything concrete we can only speculate. But, as I pointed out earlier, many of the cosmetic items for gamers are already available. You can pay for character sketches (something I've seen since the 1980s) for your virtual character sheet. As for miniatures, take a look a HeroForge.com. This is a company that builds custom miniatures (for 3d printing) based on choosing from a variety of poses, clothing, and weapon options. If this was centralized within the VTT app, the software could create a new miniature design automatically based on the equipment that is on the character sheet. The way these typically work is that the base game includes a small selection of generic items but you can purchase more exotic or cool looking items for money.
In addition to cosmetic, there is always the option for Hasbro to charge a player a small fee for each character class or 'species" that the character wants to play. Either with cash or some sort of virtual currency. And if you want to go further, allowing the purchase of in-game items (potions for instance) is also an option. Remember that the VTT is controlling the amount of gold that a player can earn so this gold can be treated as a virtual currency within the app. Take a look at the documents for WotC Adventurer's League organized play to see what it might look like:
https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/ddal_fr_dmsguidev11_0.pdf
As Chris24601 pointed out though, this is entirely dependent on whether or not Hasbro is willing to invest in creating (or buying) the software needed for such integration.
My God, can you be a shill anymore for WoTC?
Only a fool would think they haven''t made their decision.
the problem you've failed to acknowledge is this: Hasbro/WoTC doesn't look at the players of D&D as PLAYERS. They see them as CONSUMERS. There is a huge difference. The ones who want to go into this direction have never even played the game. They're trying to turn D&D into a 100% VTT environment in which THEY control the content.
Control.
We've already seen what sort of "control" they want. Removing the term "race" from the rule books? Eliminate alignments?
From the DM perspective, what sort of material are they going to allow in a virtual environment they control? What if you have content they consider "problematic" or "not politically correct". What happened to freedom?
Some soulless corporation is not going to dictate to me what they think is acceptable or not. I saw where this was leading to back when 4e was released, and that was an epic failure.
And now they want to make it a lifestyle brand ( the movie coming out in March. I wonder how much cringe is in it.) What arrogance that they think they can make it work today vs. what TSR tried years ago, and that ended in failure too.
D&D is the McDonald's of RPGs: it's tasteless, generic, has serious quality control issues, and run by people who see YOU as not a gamer, but a CONSUMER.
Not me. Oh hell no!
but please, Tell us how we have nothing to worry about. It's all fine. Right?
Meanwhile the house is burning down around you.
Quote from: Krazz on December 18, 2022, 01:07:53 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 16, 2022, 10:47:16 AM
Quote from: Zaxxon on December 16, 2022, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 15, 2022, 04:40:36 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 14, 2022, 08:14:30 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:03:40 PM
Yes. They think of D&D as a property, they can leverage for revenue.
That is not the worst thing in the world except that if not done carefully they end up alienating their core customers without picking up any of those shiny new customers they so desperately want. Should be interesting to see what happens.
Yes, it will be interesting. I wonder in particular if microtransactions will be popular or rejected by the VTT crowd.
I'm not really clear on what this micro-transactions would be. Purchase of individual customized "miniatures"?
I was thinking more like magic swords and spells, new/rare abilities/skills/feats, etc. Stuff that would make your character bullet proof.
I half want them to make D&D pay-to-win. I wonder how many parties will fall apart because the rich kid has an overpowered paladin, and everyone else waits in the background for him to win every encounter.
Of course, his longsword +5 at first level will only be overpowered for a year. Then he needs to "invest" in a mace +8.
Ah ha! This brings up another issue:
DM Fiat.Can I as a DM say yes or no to stuff players want to bring into my game? If there isn't, then yep, it'll turn into a "pay to win" with guys with +5 long swords of flame, full plate +4, and a golden Horns of Vahalla.
But if the DM has final say so, then there is some level of control of the DM's game world.
With that being said, if DM fiat is all but eliminated, is it even D&D anymore?
Quote from: Krazz on December 18, 2022, 01:07:53 PM
I half want them to make D&D pay-to-win. I wonder how many parties will fall apart because the rich kid has an overpowered paladin, and everyone else waits in the background for him to win every encounter.
Of course, his longsword +5 at first level will only be overpowered for a year. Then he needs to "invest" in a mace +8.
I really don't think that they will do pay to win straight out of the gate.
WotC is already starting to get a lot of flack as it is becoming more and more obvious that they will not update the OGL, and will likely go to a more restrictive 4e GSL style structure for 'official' 3pp vs what they have been doing with the 5e SRD.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2022, 12:04:23 PM
I too am very curious as to what kind of microtransactions they come up with, and whether these will be game-breaking, or purely cosmetic.
Purely cosmetic is all they really need to rake in big money.
Epic is paying out on a huge lawsuit over Fortnights micortransactions:
https://www.polygon.com/23516827/fortnite-epic-games-ftc-settlement-privacy-refunds-in-game-purchases
Just do a search for: microtransactions and gambling psychology
You don't need loot boxes and pay to win to bite into that. 'Exclusive' and limited edition skins, and other items to decorate your PC will be enough to trigger FOMO buying from people heavily invested in the OneVTT.
Outside of that is the wider effect a large OneVTT ecosystem will have on WotC D&D as a game.
I believe that how things work in the OneVTT will be used as 'official' rulings for live play. I really think that the OneVTT ecosystem will have a wide and unpredictable spillover effect on how people play WotC D&D live.
Certainly no rules or adventures will be released in print that are unable to be used in a 1:1 fashion on the OneVTT.
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:23:04 PMthe problem you've failed to acknowledge is this: Hasbro/WoTC doesn't look at the players of D&D as PLAYERS. They see them as CONSUMERS. There is a huge difference. The ones who want to go into this direction have never even played the game. They're trying to turn D&D into a 100% VTT environment in which THEY control the content.
Of course that's what they want to do; to move all the spending in the "D&D Hobby" into their own ecosystem. Want a rulebook? Buy it in the app. Want a miniature? Buy it in the app. An adventure? Buy that in the app as well. Even third party content will be sold in the app so WotC will get their cut. And I wouldn't be surprised if third party content has to follow WotC's Diversity guidelines and has to be approved by an official Cultural Sensitivity Commissar.
Quotebut please, Tell us how we have nothing to worry about. It's all fine. Right?
Meanwhile the house is burning down around you.
I play a game i wrote myself in a setting I created. One D&D affects me as much as if the WNBA raised their ticket prices.
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:30:51 PMCan I as a DM say yes or no to stuff players want to bring into my game?
If there isn't, then yep, it'll turn into a "pay to win" with guys with +5 long swords of flame, full plate +4, and a golden Horns of Vahalla.
But if the DM has final say so, then there is some level of control of the DM's game world.
This is why I suspect that they will move to import the Adventurer's League rules into the VTT. By having paid DMs run official adventures, WotC can control exactly how much gold and XP are awarded to players and what that gold can be spent on. [Meaning they have the door open to players spending real money on in-game gold pieces]
If you are playing with your own group, then that DM might have a bit more control* over what is included, but those characters won't be "official" Adventurer's League characters and, thus, are not eligible to join an organized play adventure.
*Keep in mind that it might be against the user's agreement for DMs to reject certain "marginalized" character types so I don't think DM's will have complete control of their game.
I think WotC's holy grail here is a multiplayer video game that doesn't actually include a game. It has art, animation, character sheets, dice, and rules text, and maybe some programmed rules (like auto calculating hits and damage) but no pesky programming that would tie it all together. The DM becomes a sort of real-time programmer who translates a written scenario into stuff on the screen.
I don't use the more elaborate VTTs but I sort of saw this happening to me when running games online, so I backed off and now just use a whiteboard and video chat when running online.
The benefits are obvious. You don't need to script modules, you can leave that to the DM. So one major issue with actual video games is nullified. Scripting isn't sexy and you can't sell it with a micro transaction. It also takes time and needs patching when inevitable bugs arise. DMs will do that for free and may even pay for the privilege! Art, animation, character sheets, dice, and text can all be sold with micro transactions. Artist and writers are cheaper than programmers and are used to working on contact, so they can be commissioned or not depending on how much $ they bring in thru micro transactions.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 20, 2022, 04:07:49 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:23:04 PMthe problem you've failed to acknowledge is this: Hasbro/WoTC doesn't look at the players of D&D as PLAYERS. They see them as CONSUMERS. There is a huge difference. The ones who want to go into this direction have never even played the game. They're trying to turn D&D into a 100% VTT environment in which THEY control the content.
Of course that's what they want to do; to move all the spending in the "D&D Hobby" into their own ecosystem. Want a rulebook? Buy it in the app. Want a miniature? Buy it in the app. An adventure? Buy that in the app as well. Even third party content will be sold in the app so WotC will get their cut. And I wouldn't be surprised if third party content has to follow WotC's Diversity guidelines and has to be approved by an official Cultural Sensitivity Commissar.
Quotebut please, Tell us how we have nothing to worry about. It's all fine. Right?
Meanwhile the house is burning down around you.
I play a game i wrote myself in a setting I created. One D&D affects me as much as if the WNBA raised their ticket prices.
that's cool you made your own game. One way to get away from Mc D&D. I went the OSR route YEARS ago. I'm upset by the situation because of what the game has become. It bears NO resemblance to the game Gygax and Arneson created. None. Their names are tied to D&D and this is their legacy. Sad...
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 20, 2022, 04:14:00 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 20, 2022, 01:30:51 PMCan I as a DM say yes or no to stuff players want to bring into my game?
If there isn't, then yep, it'll turn into a "pay to win" with guys with +5 long swords of flame, full plate +4, and a golden Horns of Vahalla.
But if the DM has final say so, then there is some level of control of the DM's game world.
This is why I suspect that they will move to import the Adventurer's League rules into the VTT. By having paid DMs run official adventures, WotC can control exactly how much gold and XP are awarded to players and what that gold can be spent on. [Meaning they have the door open to players spending real money on in-game gold pieces]
I see what you're saying, and if this is to occur, then DMs will leave in droves.
If you are playing with your own group, then that DM might have a bit more control* over what is included, but those characters won't be "official" Adventurer's League characters and, thus, are not eligible to join an organized play adventure.
*Keep in mind that it might be against the user's agreement for DMs to reject certain "marginalized" character types so I don't think DM's will have complete control of their game.
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)
Or
2.) purely cosmetic options for the VTT, like limiting the amount of virtual minis you can have at any given time ("What's that? You want to make a new mini for your campaign but you used up your three available mini slots? Well, you could delete one of your existing ones, or you could pay $19.99 to open a new slot."), or cosmetic parts for the UI ("I see you're playing Curse of Strahd. Could I interest you in a "Barovia black and gold" set of virtual dice, only $3.99?).
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on December 22, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)
Or
2.) purely cosmetic options for the VTT, like limiting the amount of virtual minis you can have at any given time ("What's that? You want to make a new mini for your campaign but you used up your three available mini slots? Well, you could delete one of your existing ones, or you could pay $19.99 to open a new slot."), or cosmetic parts for the UI ("I see you're playing Curse of Strahd. Could I interest you in a "Barovia black and gold" set of virtual dice, only $3.99?).
#2 seems the less harmful if just as intrusive. Its the difference between forcing people to pay if they want to play, and using the forum which they own as an opportunity to advertise their products with direct sales. Who knows, maybe they will start advertising for 3rd parties... Do you need a little pep in your step with the ladies? Order now and get your blue pill 25% off!
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on December 22, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)
D&D is a cooperative game, so much of the pay to win problems wouldn't apply. Is anyone really going to be upset if one of the players in the group shows up to a game with four additional healing potions?
A +5 sword at first level would be annoying but I don't see this as "pay to win" == ruined game. It really depends on how it is implemented. There is a similar problem in any TTRPG if you allow players to give treasure or magic items to each other.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 23, 2022, 11:03:02 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on December 22, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)
D&D is a cooperative game, so much of the pay to win problems wouldn't apply. Is anyone really going to be upset if one of the players in the group shows up to a game with four additional healing potions?
A +5 sword at first level would be annoying but I don't see this as "pay to win" == ruined game. It really depends on how it is implemented. There is a similar problem in any TTRPG if you allow players to give treasure or magic items to each other.
I disagree. If was playing in a game where only one or two players who were willing to pay for the goodies and all the rest just sat around and watched, I would lose interest very quickly.
Quote from: squirewaldo on December 23, 2022, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 23, 2022, 11:03:02 AM
D&D is a cooperative game, so much of the pay to win problems wouldn't apply. Is anyone really going to be upset if one of the players in the group shows up to a game with four additional healing potions?
A +5 sword at first level would be annoying but I don't see this as "pay to win" == ruined game. It really depends on how it is implemented. There is a similar problem in any TTRPG if you allow players to give treasure or magic items to each other.
I disagree. If was playing in a game where only one or two players who were willing to pay for the goodies and all the rest just sat around and watched, I would lose interest very quickly.
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.
With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.
There's a core critical flaw in the argument here.
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.
But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.
Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.
With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.
But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.
It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.
With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.
But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.
It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
Completely missing the point... not surprising.
The point is not "well, you can buy access for someone else" it's "you never needed to buy access for someone else before, they just used your book."
Remember back when money-grubbing corpos were the bad guys for the Lefties?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 23, 2022, 11:03:02 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on December 22, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
I see two possible ways they could monetize 1D&D:
1.) Microtransactional in-game usable items like potions, weapons, armor,etc., that would totally bork the game for everyone who can't or won't spend money on power-ups. (I honestly do not see this happening, at least not at first)
D&D is a cooperative game, so much of the pay to win problems wouldn't apply. Is anyone really going to be upset if one of the players in the group shows up to a game with four additional healing potions?
A +5 sword at first level would be annoying but I don't see this as "pay to win" == ruined game. It really depends on how it is implemented. There is a similar problem in any TTRPG if you allow players to give treasure or magic items to each other.
I think people would be upset. So much noise is made about "player balance" and this is the same issue. One guy pays for the goodies, gets to do all the interesting stuff because he's just stronger, and everyone else gets to be his sidekicks. Doesn't sound great to me.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 24, 2022, 05:21:01 PMI think people would be upset. [...] One guy pays for the goodies, gets to do all the interesting stuff because he's just stronger, and everyone else gets to be his sidekicks.
It's a common problem in lots of 'free' MMORPGs where players have the option to buy power-ups for cash. But the fact that it's common, yet those games can still be hugely popular, indicates it might be worth the bad press from the company's viewpoint.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 24, 2022, 12:05:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
Completely missing the point... not surprising.
The point is not "well, you can buy access for someone else" it's "you never needed to buy access for someone else before, they just used your book."
Remember back when money-grubbing corpos were the bad guys for the Lefties?
I remember perfectly. I'm not the one who has shifted on this point. I can check since I've been talking about RPGs online since 1992 - and looking back through my 1992 posts, I don't see anything about TSR being the worst evil. I've never been a communist, but I've always had a healthy skepticism of money-grubbing corporations. I didn't particularly like TSR, but I didn't consider them the worst evil ever. I also don't particularly like WotC, but I don't consider them the worst evil ever.
Money-grubbing is money-grubbing. It's been how corporations have been always. The people who have shifted are those who were fine with all corporate behavior in the past are suddenly now indignant at corporate money-grubbing.
TSR sued multiple companies for copyright infringement just for showing compatibility. WotC seems to be geared up to have a limited license for third parties to use OneD&D material. Yes, it's more limited than was done for WotC's own 3E and 5E, but it's still more open than TSR's 1E and 2E were, and it's also more open than 4E was.
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 23, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
I think the model for player-boost content would be the Complete Handbooks of the 2E era, which thus far WotC hasn't put out the equivalent of - though it has put out some partly player-focused supplements like Xanathar's Guide and Tasha's Cauldron. The problem with the Complete Handbooks is that they only had a narrow market. Only a subset of players whose character was that given class would buy the handbook. And there was a bunch of cost for printing and distribution. Likewise, in the WotC era, few players would shell out money to buy their own copy of Xanathar's Guide.
With digital content, the printing and distribution is negligible. Players might not pay big bucks for a 192-page hardbound book like Xanathar's, but they're much more likely to spend $1 or $2 for a new sub-race or sub-class they are interested in.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 10:21:19 AM
If I buy Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I can share it at the table. Everyone can pull stuff from it.
But the microtransaction model we're expecting is stuff where you can't share. If Alice pays the $2 to play a half-dragon, Bob can't play it even if the DM allowed it. If Bob spends $2 on a +5 sword, Alice can't wield it during an adventure.
It's technically possible. In many video games, a player can spend money on an in-game item, and then sell or give that item to a different player.
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
If there's an app that players have and only pay microtransactions for the book parts they want, then they can each have the parts they need at their fingertips, and possibly even pay less than buying a single whole book. When I'm running tabletop, I always have my laptop open. Players never do, but I've had players with an app on their phones that's worked fine. A phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
*stunned expression*
You don't actually fucking mean this, do you? Do you not see the point I'm making?
The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'
Jesus, do you even know what Fortnite is? I guarantee that's their business model. And as much as it irks me, it has made Epic a fucking ton of cash.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 09:48:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'
Right. I agree that it's making money by getting players to pay for cool new options for their character. But I don't think that's wrong to make money this way. It's not inherently stealing or cheating. It can be delivering what players want in a convenient manner.
(1) Most players would be happy to pay a few bucks for a new character option that they want to actually use, or other small things to improve their gaming experience. The issue is value compared to cost.
(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.
(3) However, most players aren't interested in paying $40-$50 for a 200-page hardbound book. That's in large part due to the big up-front cost when they won't use 90% of the content, and also because even if it were cheap, lugging around multiple 200-page manuals and flipping back and forth between them in play is awkward at best.
(4) It's true that *if* they pay the $40-$50 up-front cost, they can spread value by passing the book around to other players. However, this is even more awkward and inconvenient than each player having their own book.
In terms of value for money spent, I don't think it's clear that buying one 200-page hardback book of options and passing it around between players is better value for money than each player paying a few bucks for personal access to only the character options they want in a handy app.
P.S. Merry Christmas! I hope you get some gaming stuff you enjoy. There's plenty out there to like.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2022, 12:04:23 PM
I too am very curious as to what kind of microtransactions they come up with, and whether these will be game-breaking, or purely cosmetic.
Probably they are working on a magnification of D&D Beyond. Beyond has everything they want. Beyond was working on a big update and wotc told them to hold off. So this suggests they are up to something.
So what will likely happen is 6e will come out with minimal print and they will try to push as much as they can into their Beyond knock off. Which will likely have either a tenth the features, or just assets stolen whole cloth from Beyond. Its what wotc does. Expansions with new races and classes will be online only.
Assuming they go that route it might well make the 4e debacle look like a walk in the park in comparison.
Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.
Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 01:58:56 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.
Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.
I guarantee you'll also lose it the moment you use the wrong pronouns and are banned from access to what you paid for "violating terms of service"... because all you really own is a license to access, not the material itself.
Imagine you're a GM with a game to run... "sorry guys, game this week is canceled. I got a seven day ban because I called someone "her" instead of "hir" so I don't have access to my books. Try again next week?"
That'll happen about once before any GM with a microgram of sanity says "shove it" and converts to a system where the whims of the woke can't shut down your ability to run/play.
On the plus side? 4E will no longer be the most hated edition of all time.
If you have the paid D&D Beyond subscription for DMs ($6 I think), you can share content with 50+ people digitally at no charge for them.
I will always prefer in-person gaming and the sharing of books.
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AMA phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
This is kinda besides the point you were trying to make, but lately every time I've played I've had my character entirely written down on a note in my phone. No fancy apps or nothing, just a some notes in my regular note app with all my character's data, including spells and such. So you don't even need an app or printed character sheets. You can run an entire game just from notes on your phone (I was also running a game some of those times).
Granted, this was face to face. But even if I were to play online I imagine I could just have a Word file with my character's notes and campaign notes and such. So just type or copy/paste whatever in the chat. You don't need fancy apps for any of this stuff. That's how necessary these digital services are.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 25, 2022, 03:17:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AMA phone screen is too small for a character sheet, but they can use a printed sheet for normal stats and the phone for reference on spells and special abilities.
This is kinda besides the point you were trying to make, but lately every time I've played I've had my character entirely written down on a note in my phone. No fancy apps or nothing, just a some notes in my regular note app with all my character's data, including spells and such. So you don't even need an app or printed character sheets. You can run an entire game just from notes on your phone (I was also running a game some of those times).
Granted, this was face to face. But even if I were to play online I imagine I could just have a Word file with my character's notes and campaign notes and such. So just type or copy/paste whatever in the chat. You don't need fancy apps for any of this stuff. That's how necessary these digital services are.
Plus, if you do your own sheet, everything is where you want it and is optimized for how YOU process Information. Personally, I've NEVER had an official sheet that I've been happy with and the ability to rearrange your UI in video games (and remap your controls) is a necessity for my long term enjoyment for all but the simplest games.
Quote from: Omega on December 25, 2022, 01:56:10 AM
So what will likely happen is 6e will come out with minimal print and they will try to push as much as they can into their Beyond knock off. Which will likely have either a tenth the features, or just assets stolen whole cloth from Beyond. Its what wotc does. Expansions with new races and classes will be online only.
Hi, Omega. You're saying that WotC would create a knock-off and steal from D&D Beyond. That sounds like you're unaware that WotC bought D&D Beyond for $146 million earlier this year.
(ref) (https://techcrunch.com/2022/04/15/dnd-beyond-wizards-dungeons-and-dragons/) So I think this prediction is partly true, but also significantly off. You were right that WotC did want to have features like D&D Beyond, but they got it by paying for the company - which is the opposite of stealing.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 25, 2022, 01:58:56 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.
Because microtransactions in a VTT, that can and will disappear the moment it's not profitable to maintain; is completely comparable to purchasing a book, that you can re-use for the rest of your life.
Well, it's comparable in that it can be compared. They're not the same - there are differences, but those differences can be looked at as value for money. And that value will differ depending on who the customer is.
For me personally, I have 2.5 six foot bookcases full of mostly old RPG books dating back to the 1970s. I keep everything around, so I'd personally be less interested in paying for VTT content. However, I'm not representative of the general market.
The majority of gamers won't be playing the same edition of any game twenty years from now. Essentially all tabletop companies have engaged in the edition treadmill, and many turn over new editions faster than WotC. It's a very small percentage of players who are still actively using decades-old RPG books.
Quote from: jhkim on December 25, 2022, 01:45:04 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 24, 2022, 09:48:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 24, 2022, 11:48:44 AM
Even if that isn't implemented, though, there's potential for improved functionality. If a group gets one copy of Xanathar's Guide, they're paying for a full paper book of options that has to get passed back and forth between players, flipping through pages for the appropriate ability or spell. I think most people who have played RPGs know how much of a pain that can be.
The microtransaction stuff will not be shareable. That's how they make money. 'Hey, that's a cool skin/weapon/etc, I should buy one too.'
Right. I agree that it's making money by getting players to pay for cool new options for their character. But I don't think that's wrong to make money this way. It's not inherently stealing or cheating. It can be delivering what players want in a convenient manner.
(1) Most players would be happy to pay a few bucks for a new character option that they want to actually use, or other small things to improve their gaming experience. The issue is value compared to cost.
(2) Paying for cool new character options is exactly what players would do when buying things like the Complete Fighter's Handbook (2e), or Xanathar's Guide (5E), or lots of the $1-$5 mini-products on DriveThruRPG.
(3) However, most players aren't interested in paying $40-$50 for a 200-page hardbound book. That's in large part due to the big up-front cost when they won't use 90% of the content, and also because even if it were cheap, lugging around multiple 200-page manuals and flipping back and forth between them in play is awkward at best.
(4) It's true that *if* they pay the $40-$50 up-front cost, they can spread value by passing the book around to other players. However, this is even more awkward and inconvenient than each player having their own book.
In terms of value for money spent, I don't think it's clear that buying one 200-page hardback book of options and passing it around between players is better value for money than each player paying a few bucks for personal access to only the character options they want in a handy app.
P.S. Merry Christmas! I hope you get some gaming stuff you enjoy. There's plenty out there to like.
LOL! I was going to ask if you were a paid corporate shill, but then I realized that it doesn't matter (if the effect is indistinguishable from corporate shilling, then it doesn't matter if you are paid or not).
So, let's look at what you are suggesting, because it bears no resemblance to the actual conversation. You are comparing cost/value to buying lots of options at once in a collection (doesn't need to be hard-copy, as DnDBeyond allows the purchasing of all options in a book at once for the price of the book) to buying piecemeal. First, the economy of scale is an interesting discussion to have. When does it cost more to buy in bulk than in individual options? Right now, buying the character-builder parts of the PHB will run you ~$24. Adding the compendium option (which is all of the text, explanation, the ability to look it all up in the compendium, etc. (which is what buying the book on DnDBeyond gives you) is an additional $20. Or, you can buy the book for $30. That's almost 150% the price of the book buying piecemeal. So even in this case, it costs less to buy in bulk, unless you want less than 33% of the contents of the book, and no ability to search or explanatory texts.
But it gets worse. Because what is actually being compared is cost vs. free. That's what "under-monetized" means (and that's WotC's words, not mine)! What we are talking about is the inability to use content during play if you haven't purchased the privilege of doing so. Right now, I can add a +5 longsword to my character and play, whether I have bought the DMG (where magic items are listed) or not. I can even do so in DnDBeyond (because I can use the homebrew construction tools to create one and add it to my character, despite not having the original purchased). What we are discussing is, with the push to integrate the game within the VTT, the history and experience of the newest corporate hires at WotC, the drop in Hasbro stock, whether the new direction of OneD&D will create a situation where players will need to pay for features that were previously free. This is especially true if physical books and tools will be de-emphasized (or even restricted) as D&D moves more digital.
Now, I know what your (and junior-shills like Mistwell) immediate response will be: "Well, all of that is speculation; WotC hasn't announced what all this will look like yet." Which is, in fact, irrelevant. See, fools (feel free to claim membership if you so desire) are reactive, not proactive. In every walk of life (business, relationships, war, finance, etc.) those who succeed are those who look ahead, plan for multiple possibilities, try to figure out where things are going rather than where things are at this moment. I'm pretty sure the people at Kobold Press, the makers of Solasta, the others who plan to make products tangential to D&D, all are preparing for the worst, while hoping for the best. Only the drooling fool bumbles along without assessing what the worst that can happen might be, and trying to mitigate the effects should the worst come to pass.
So, why don't you address the actual topic? Do you support the possibility that integration with a VTT will create an ecosystem where previously free or easily integrated material will now come with a monetary cost? And the fact that WotC hasn't announced the specifics yet is NOT an argument against this discussion (well, it might be to a fool or shill... pick one). We are discussing possible trends and the possible consequences.
And before anyone comments that WotC wouldn't be so stupid as to go down the same road as 4e all over again, it's pretty obvious that they are that stupid. Everything so far reads like WotC will once again attempt to destroy or regulate 3rd party integration, flood the game with content (so that they can charge for it), and ignore the fans and the actual mechanics of the game. We are about to see 4e redux...
P.S. Oh, and each of your 4 bullet points in the original quote are very cavalier with appeals to what "most players" do or don't want. Citations needed...
Indeed, once you accept that what Hasbro/WotC has always wanted is what they tried to set up with 4E... then it's easy to see they think they've lulled enough people back to the fold that they can try again for their closed licensed online portal/VTT that forces all their competitors to pay them for access.
It's probably going to go even worse for WotC this time because we've already seen how to address a crap replacement for the OGL and this time everyone knows that when WotC pulls back and says "we learned our lesson" that they're just biding their time to try their money grab again.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 25, 2022, 07:36:54 PM
What we are discussing is, with the push to integrate the game within the VTT, the history and experience of the newest corporate hires at WotC, the drop in Hasbro stock, whether the new direction of OneD&D will create a situation where players will need to pay for features that were previously free. This is especially true if physical books and tools will be de-emphasized (or even restricted) as D&D moves more digital.
Now, I know what your (and junior-shills like Mistwell) immediate response will be: "Well, all of that is speculation; WotC hasn't announced what all this will look like yet." Which is, in fact, irrelevant. See, fools (feel free to claim membership if you so desire) are reactive, not proactive. In every walk of life (business, relationships, war, finance, etc.) those who succeed are those who look ahead, plan for multiple possibilities, try to figure out where things are going rather than where things are at this moment. I'm pretty sure the people at Kobold Press, the makers of Solasta, the others who plan to make products tangential to D&D, all are preparing for the worst, while hoping for the best. Only the drooling fool bumbles along without assessing what the worst that can happen might be, and trying to mitigate the effects should the worst come to pass.
How much planning is needed? If they come out with a new edition that sucks, I won't buy it and I'll play something else instead. There are lots of options, and I've done the same previously. I never really bought into 2E from TSR, or 3.5E or 4E from WotC. (I did buy the historical campaign sourcebooks for 2E though I never played 2E. I played a handful of sessions of 4E because my nephew was running it, but those were my only play.)
Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 25, 2022, 07:36:54 PM
So, why don't you address the actual topic? Do you support the possibility that integration with a VTT will create an ecosystem where previously free or easily integrated material will now come with a monetary cost?
That's an undefined hypothetical. Whether I play a new edition or new RPG will depend on whether I find it fun and worthwhile for the overall cost, compared to my other options. Whether it's in big up-front costs, subscription, or micropayments will change how the cost is calculated, but what matters is overall value to cost.
How good is it, and how much does it cost? Those are the question I would consider.
If it is the worst game ever and costs hundreds of dollars for expected play, then I won't play it. If it's cheap and fun, then maybe I will play it and pay a few bucks in micropayments for bits that I like.
Quote from: FingerRod on December 25, 2022, 02:35:01 PM
If you have the paid D&D Beyond subscription for DMs ($6 I think), you can share content with 50+ people digitally at no charge for them.
I will always prefer in-person gaming and the sharing of books.
Which is why wotc is near certainly aiming for their own platforn and removing the ability to share the books with the players. Everyone will have to buy everything if they want to use the platform.
Otherwise this whole "lets monetize the players" gag is a farce more than it already is.
Take note that of the three MMOs cryptic runs off the CO engine. Neverwinter is the only one that a player can not just buy a lifetime subscription and has to fork out upwards of 50$ every few months.
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 02:31:56 AMIf they come out with a new edition that sucks, I won't buy it and I'll play something else instead.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c4/22/62/c42262c0fd871649ee4fa4a58384f52a--free-cell-phone-phone-service.jpg)
Behind your walls of sophistry, you are far too aligned with the ideology of Nu-WOTC not to play it. If you have to stab the parts of your brain that hate it, out will come the ice-pick. You're the "this is fine" melting dog.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:40:11 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 02:31:56 AMIf they come out with a new edition that sucks, I won't buy it and I'll play something else instead.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c4/22/62/c42262c0fd871649ee4fa4a58384f52a--free-cell-phone-phone-service.jpg)
Behind your walls of sophistry, you are far too aligned with the ideology of Nu-WOTC not to play it. If you have to stab the parts of your brain that hate it, out will come the ice-pick. You're the "this is fine" melting dog.
I don't think we know each other. Do you also not believe me about my play history? I've documented most of my play over the past 35 years or so.
(ref) (https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/campaigns/) I play some D&D, but it's never been the majority of my play.
As far as "this is fine" dog meme - you're implying that somehow everything is on fire within RPGs. They're games we play for fun, and currently there are lots of choices across a wide variety of tastes. There are dozens of OSR publishers putting out loads of content, as well as lots of D&D choices. Other games are doing OK as well, though they are getting eclipsed.
As far as I'm concerned, the ideology of WotC is "make money". I'm fine with that if they make games that I enjoy, but they have a spotty history of that.
Quote from: Grognard GM on December 26, 2022, 09:40:11 AM
Quote from: jhkim on December 26, 2022, 02:31:56 AMIf they come out with a new edition that sucks, I won't buy it and I'll play something else instead.
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Behind your walls of sophistry, you are far too aligned with the ideology of Nu-WOTC not to play it. If you have to stab the parts of your brain that hate it, out will come the ice-pick. You're the "this is fine" melting dog.
Greetings!
*Laughing* "This is fine!" Melting Dog! So funny, and true, as well.
You've noticed the techniques and "Walls of sophistry" that is employed? You have his allegiance and techniques down perfectly.
It's funny how with some people, no matter what the topic, angle, or criticism, they always somehow take the position of defending and gaslighting in favour of WOTC.
This kind of dynamic is so consistent over time here with several members, I always know who is going to be white knightting for WOTC.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK