Quote from: Exploderwizard;680904If you apply modern play assumptions to a class designed for a different set of assumptions certainly.

What play assumptions? That you'll fail almost all the time while other people are slinging magics and hobnobbing with the gods?

I can't imagine a more depressing existence than being a thief under that system, oh hey failed to pick that lock, why don't I scale this... whoops, fell down. Nice fireball by the way, and Ulgrund really dig the way you heroically decapitated that umber hulk. Why don't I just hang back from this fight because let's face it I couldn't backstab my way out of a wet paper bag and, oh darn it, looks like I walked into a pit trap. Ah well, time to roll up another character.

Maybe this time, not a thief.

Quote from: The Traveller;680896Yeah, I don't think paleoboy ever actually played older games.

Awww, how cute.  Doubly dismissive - a condescending nickname as well as responding to someone else about me, instead of me!

And yeah, I have played the older games, at least as far back as AD&D 1e and B/X (Moldvay/Cook).  Haven't played older than that, admittedly.

Most of my old-school campaign experience was with a homebrew system that was a combination of The Fantasy Trip and AD&D 1e with a bunch of other stuff added in.  Or, at least that's what the system was by the time I got to playing in that campaign.  Not fully D&D, true, but it was a chance to get a first-hand look at how at least some campaigns were run by adults in the 70s.

Quote from: The Traveller;680896If it fails 90%+ of the time, it's not useful.

At low levels, it wasn't guaranteed.  Nothing is.

QuoteExcept they were terrible at moving quietly too. If I recall correctly about the only thing they had any chance of doing was climbing walls, and hey, rope+grapnel. Plus they weren't really very good at even that.

A greater than 0% chance of failure isn't 'terrible'.

Quote from: robiswrong;680914Awww, how cute.  Doubly dismissive - a condescending nickname as well as responding to someone else about me, instead of me!

Almost as condescending as calling them paleogames, you might say.

Quote from: StormBringer;680915At low levels, it wasn't guaranteed.  Nothing is.

Stormbringer, meet sleep and magic missile.

Quote from: The Traveller;680896If it fails 90%+ of the time, it's not useful.


Except they were terrible at moving quietly too. If I recall correctly about the only thing they had any chance of doing was climbing walls, and hey, rope+grapnel. Plus they weren't really very good at even that.

Quotewell, 10% is a little bit an exaggeration for most skills, though without the racial bonuses and dexterity bonuses, it was pretty crappy.  Just like saying that ,'you'll fail most of the time while others are hobnobbing with gods'.  

That being said, I will bet you one of the first adjudications that I made some 30+  years ago was that I gave environmental bonuses to thieving skills in more optimal situations.  I still do it today.  Not saying I was not bending the rules to make the thief better, which is your point.  Just saying that I tried to balance him in the fulcrum of the type of gaming I was doing.

Quote from: The Traveller;680840Seriously, have you looked at the thief percentages. By the time they are even halfway to competent everyone else is either ruling fiefdoms or lashing about the place with meteor swarms. And that's all they get. Weird for a game built solidly on stealing things.

First off, scouting (see LordVreeg's post below). If you want to stumble around a dungeon fighting whatever you encounter, you will die.

And the thief was the class for people who didn't especially feel like having a combat-heavy character. Only an idiot would make a thief and then complain that he wasn't effective in combat. They weren't supposed to be. They were supposed to sneak around cities, the wilderness, and dungeons, and find out what was going on. They were supposed to expose themselves to greater risks with traps, climbing, etc. in exchange for skimming a bit off the top.

Furthermore, AD&D was a magic-item-heavy game. That 6th level thief is likely going to have stuff like an elven cloak, boots of levitation, cloak of the spider, bracers of defence, necklace of water-breathing, various potions, etc. He should have all of the exploration and stealth gear the party acquires. That means he can cruise around independently and investigate everything he wants, and also escape peril far easier than other PCs. I've had more than one virtual TPK where the only survivor was the thief.

In AD&D I saw a lot more players take thiefs than magic-users simply because they liked a 50 per cent change of surviving levels 1-2 better than a 25 per cent chance.

Quote from: The Traveller;680840Why? A sixth level magic user could do most of what a thief was meant to be able to do without even having to roll for it. Automatic success, often at a distance, and much more besides.

What kind of a dolt of a player is going to select knock as a 2nd level spell over web or mirror image? Maybe you take one if you're venturing into some famed vault or dwarven city that is known to have strong gates. But that's one. In an old-school dungeon a thief will be unlocking doors and chests 10-15 times a session.

Quote from: LordVreeg;680863The thief class was underpowered, but in certain game styles, did ok.  One of the roles that is oft-overlooked is the critical position, for hours of game time in a span, of the silent, unseen scout.  Quieter, more unseen, able to traverse tough terrain, more perceptive (especially in hearing), underpowered or not, a party without a thief did not survive in my settings.  Someone, and often more than one, had to be there to scout ahead.  Read that again.  DID NOT SURVIVE.  
(and this is the case still for me, a group that does not scout ahead does not survive adventuring).

Exactly. A magic-user can sneak around invisible and use spells to scope out threats. But each of those spells is a combat spell not available in his arsenal.

Quote from: The Traveller;680917Stormbringer, meet sleep and magic missile.

Sleep is usable once or so a day, only affects 4-16 1HD creatures (far less as the HD increases) and doesn't affect Elves, undead, and several others I am forgetting.  

Magic Missile does a whopping 2-5 damage once a day.

'No saving throw' does not mean 'no chance of failure'.  That Magic Missile can barely threaten an average Orc; hardly a raging success.  And those same Orcs are typically encountered in groups of 20-200, so even the maximum amount affected by Sleep is hardly a victory.

Do we really have to focus on the absolute smallest detail, as though that invalidates everything?

Quote from: Haffrung;680926First off, scouting (see LordVreeg's post below). If you want to stumble around a dungeon fighting whatever you encounter, you will die.

If you have a thief scouting you're almost guaranteed to alert anything ahead after repeated failures to move quietly.

Quote from: Haffrung;680926They were supposed to expose themselves to greater risks with traps, climbing, etc. in exchange for skimming a bit off the top.

The only way a thief was going to detect traps before reaching higher levels was if you put a blindfold on the poor bastard and made him walk twenty feet ahead of the group.

Quote from: Haffrung;680926Furthermore, AD&D was a magic-item-heavy game. That 6th level thief is likely going to have stuff like an elven cloak, boots of levitation, cloak of the spider, bracers of defence, necklace of water-breathing, various potions, etc.

So, a bit like every other character then?

Quote from: Haffrung;680926In an old-school dungeon a thief will be unlocking doors and chests 10-15 times a session.

/facepalm

Quote from: The Traveller;680909I can't imagine a more depressing existence than being a thief under that system, oh hey failed to pick that lock, why don't I scale this... whoops, fell down. Nice fireball by the way, and Ulgrund really dig the way you heroically decapitated that umber hulk. Why don't I just hang back from this fight because let's face it I couldn't backstab my way out of a wet paper bag and, oh darn it, looks like I walked into a pit trap. Ah well, time to roll up another character.

You're describing the experience of a level 1-3 thief. Is a level 1-3 magic-user much better? Low-level characters in AD&D are pretty inept all around. But in a game with high-mortality, don't underestimate the appeal of having the fastest character - both in foot-speed, and in speed of leveling up. We had a lot of campaigns where the 3th level thief mentored another group of level 1 characters after his earlier companions bit the dust.

Quote from: StormBringer;680928Do we really have to focus on the absolute smallest detail, as though that invalidates everything?

You said nothing was guaranteed at a lower level, I pointed out that a couple of spells had no saving throw. You also said greater than 0% was not terrible odds. 0% isn't terrible odds, it's no odds. To emphasise it a bit more, let's roll a d20. Every time a 1 comes up, I'll give you ten bucks. Every other time, you give me twenty. Would you say those odds are terrible or otherwise?

Quote from: The Traveller;680930So, a bit like every other character then?

The magic weapons and armor are going to be divided among the fighters and clerics. The misc items and some protection items among the magic-users. A thief will have most of the hiding/moving/escaping gear. That means he will be effectively equipped to carry out the crucial role of scouting. It also makes him more survivable in a game where PCs die a lot.

This isn't a DPS comparison. PCs in AD&D had fundamentally different roles.

Quote from: Haffrung;680936A thief will have most of the hiding/moving/escaping gear.

Why? It will work just as well on a magic user or fighter, and unlike a thief they aren't third wheels. You're talking about balancing out the character's abilities with magical items that could be used by anyone else. Surely you must see it's a better idea to start the thief out at a base 50% in most abilities, push it up by 10% per level, maxing out at 200% and adjusting for the difficulty of the task? Not to mention a whole variety of additional level related bonuses. That's how you'd balance on the thief, not by depending on the largesse of fellow players and the GM.

Quote from: Haffrung;680936This isn't a DPS comparison. PCs in AD&D had fundamentally roles.

I'm mostly referring to the blue book expert set rulebook since that's where I had the most experience, but my point is that as a class the thief represented itself very poorly when compared to any other class. It's a textbook case of little to no thought being given to balance.

Quote from: The Traveller;680930If you have a thief scouting you're almost guaranteed to alert anything ahead after repeated failures to move quietly.


The only way a thief was going to detect traps before reaching higher levels was if you put a blindfold on the poor bastard and made him walk twenty feet ahead of the group.


So, a bit like every other character then?


/facepalm

Methinks he doth protest too much.

It was like every character in that he had the gear to enhance his abilities.  so long before our fabled godhobnob (I did say that), our thief has the tools needed to have very high chances of successful scouting.   Basically, at the same amount of experience, the thief was weaker in many games, but competent as a scout, with skills commensurate.  Don't forget, skill+racial+dex+magiic.  The rest of the group is casting fireballs?  The thief is 60-80% on most scouting skills (if not higher with boots and cloaks of elvenkind).  

Trust me, with lots of games, especially with a  mediocre or worse GM or combat centric game, the thief could be a drag.  But with a good GM and an exploration based game, he was very popular in my games.

Quote from: LordVreeg;680942Trust me, with lots of games, especially with a  mediocre or worse GM or combat centric game, the thief could be a drag.  But with a good GM and an exploration based game, he was very popular in my games.

Which is what I was saying about tailoring things for your party.  If you have a thief, lock some things that weren't locked before.  If you don't, have the bad guy carry keys.  Etc.

Quote from: LordVreeg;680942Don't forget, skill+racial+dex+magiic.

Aside from the fact that I'm not talking about AD&D, you can achieve the same effect by giving the magic to any other character. You changed things around to make the thief more effective in your game, good for you, that supports exactly what I'm saying so I've no idea what we're arguing about.