I've changed my mind about not posting to this again. Guess I'm still having fun.

My "opinion" is based on pretty extensive experience, and simple reasoning. Playing a RPG as therapy for emotional issues must be different than playing for entertainment mainly because the overall goal is different. I don't doubt that RPGing is fun to do even in therapy, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still therapy, it's goal is still to ultimately improve the emotional health of one or more of the participants. This means the therpist is going to guide the experience toward that goal. The difference might be subtle, but it's there.

When I go over to my buddy Bill's house to game, improving my emotional health isn't even on the radar, we are there only for the purpose of entertaining/being entertained. When I and 5 of our patients sit around the living room downing diet pepsi and talking, we are not just "kickin' it", no matter how much it might seem like we are. I have a purpose there, so I guide the discussion both subtly and not-so-subtly towards achieving that purpose.

Despite my apparent assertion in my flippant (and slightly tongue-in-cheek) posts to this thread, I am very well aware that I could be wrong (even without ya'all's smartass and arguementative comments). Based on my personal and professional experience, I don't believe I am, but if you can produce convincing arguements to the contrary I am certainly open to revising my opinion.

First, you're assuming a forced singularity of purpose. Either you're trying to have fun or you're trying to be therapeutic. It's possible to do both at once.

Second, if "this is how it has happened in my life" isn't a convincing argument, then there ain't much else that can be said. If first hand experience (i.e. fact) won't convince you, why would any amount of theorizing (i.e. educated opinions) do so?

Let me add these two points...

1. It is possible to play for fun and have it be therapeutic.

2. It is possible to play as a part of therapy and have it be fun.

I have never, anywhere in this thread or any other, contended that playing an RPG as part of emotional therapy couldn't be or isn't fun. Not once. All I've said is that gaming as therapy is not the same experience as gaming for entertainment. This is why I don't get what the hell ya'all are argueing about. What I'm hearing you say is that you going to a therapy session run by a psychologist and having the psychologist use an RPG to attempt to deal with emotional issues in a manner his/her patients understand and feel safe with is the exact same experience as me going to my buddy's house and gaming for a few hours completely for the hell of it. If that is indeed what you are saying then I don't believe you, because I know gaming, and I know emotional therapy. I don't have to know every single method of therapy to understand how it works.

So, you're wrong when you say I'm "forcing a singularity of purpose". I'm doing no such thing, I thought we had cleared that up already. I even said in my very last post...

Quote from: SigmundI don't doubt that RPGing is fun to do even in therapy, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still therapy...

I really didn't think that statement was all that complex that it would be so grossly misunderstood.

Of course my gaming with a therapist is not going to be the same experience as your gaming without one. My gaming without one wouldn't be the same experience as you gaming without one either. We're different people and we bring different viewpoints to the table.

However, my gaming with a therapist was the same sort of experience as my gaming without one. They of course weren't exactly alike, as they were different gaming groups. But they were close enough that I'd call them both "gaming."

Whether my gaming with or without a therapist would be the same today I don't know. I'm a vastly different person then I was twenty years ago, and a different therapist would bring a different suite of skills to the table.

Quote from: James McMurrayOf course my gaming with a therapist is not going to be the same experience as your gaming without one. My gaming without one wouldn't be the same experience as you gaming without one either. We're different people and we bring different viewpoints to the table.

However, my gaming with a therapist was the same sort of experience as my gaming without one. They of course weren't exactly alike, as they were different gaming groups. But they were close enough that I'd call them both "gaming."

Whether my gaming with or without a therapist would be the same today I don't know. I'm a vastly different person then I was twenty years ago, and a different therapist would bring a different suite of skills to the table.

Ok, now we're talking about the same thing here finally.

I have no  interest in debating philosophy with you, or relative experience, or anything else really. I don't believe what you're saying, so there's really no point. We got vastly off-topic awhile back anyway, sorry to everyone else about that.

Ah hubris. Always entertaining, even when disappointing. Or to misquote* Londo Mollari: Ah, arrogance and ignorance all in the same package. How efficient of you.

* He uses stupidity in place of ignorance, but I don't think you're stupid, just blinded in this area by what you think you know, to the point that you disregard eyewitness accounts if they risk damaging your worldview.

Quote from: James McMurrayAh hubris. Always entertaining, even when disappointing. Or to misquote* Londo Mollari: Ah, arrogance and ignorance all in the same package. How efficient of you.

* He uses stupidity in place of ignorance, but I don't think you're stupid, just blinded in this area by what you think you know, to the point that you disregard eyewitness accounts if they risk damaging your worldview.

By your own admission, and your own reasoning, the two experiences are different , yet according to you just alike enough to call me ignorant and arrogant. You then, however, say that your game and mine, whether with therapist or without have to be different because we are different people, and game with different people, even though you have no idea what my game is like, and whether it might indeed be "close enough that you can call them both gaming". I think you're confused about who is the arrogant one here. I don't believe what you are posting here because you contradict yourself in the same post.

Quote from: James McMurrayOf course my gaming with a therapist is not going to be the same experience as your gaming without one. My gaming without one wouldn't be the same experience as you gaming without one either. We're different people and we bring different viewpoints to the table.

However, my gaming with a therapist was the same sort of experience as my gaming without one. They of course weren't exactly alike, as they were different gaming groups. But they were close enough that I'd call them both "gaming."

So are they the same or not? If they are close enough to each other to be loosely called the same, and that my assertion they are not is from ignorance, then how can you assert that neither of your gaming experiences can be like mine if you have no first hand experiences of my gaming? You are committing the very crime you are accusing me of. Why is it that it's ok for you and your "world view", but not mine? Hubris indeed.

Perhaps we should learn more about the experiences and then we can both be arrogant but not so ignorant. Tell me, where did this therapy gaming occur? How many players were involved? Who DMed? Did you run published adventures, or homebrew ones? How much was the therapist getting paid to play DnD with you? Did you play only an hour at a time, or from, like, dinnertime until 3am? Once a week? Was the DnD the only kind of therapy you engaged in during these sessions? Were there other games you played? Were all the other players always the same too, or did the player roster change every so often? Did you really use DnD to get at these deep emotional issues, or did you have to play a game with less "roll-playing" rules in it? Did you and the other players ever do anything else together besides game (and therapy)? How about your entertainment gaming? How did it differ from the therapy gaming? Where did it take place, and with who? Did you play any other games than DnD with them? How long did you engage in the two experiences?

Mate, you blokes are talking a load of old bollocks. How did my clear, intelligent and insightful original post turn into this nonsense?

:forge:

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, you blokes are talking a load of old bollocks. How did my clear, intelligent and insightful original post turn into this nonsense?

:forge:

Yes, and bite me, we're having fun.

:enw:

It isn't the differences in experiences that make it hubris, it's the "your experiences differ from mine, so I don't believe what you're saying" that does it.

As for our games being exactly alike, well, you are of course free to think it's hubris of me to think they aren't, but I'll stick with my belief. You and I are obviously different people. The groups we game with are obviously different people. We most likely play different games. The odds of different people in different groups playing different games having the exact same experiences seem pretty slim to me.

QuoteTell me, where did this therapy gaming occur?

Fort Worth Child Study Center, over twenty years ago.

QuoteHow many players were involved? Who DMed?

Anywhere from two to four players, not including the therapist DMing.

QuoteDid you run published adventures, or homebrew ones?

I have no idea, although I haven't read anything similar to what we played, so my assumption is that it was homebrew. It would be a lot easier to mold an adventure towards therapy if it were.

QuoteHow much was the therapist getting paid to play DnD with you?

My dad paid (I wasn't even ten yet) so I have no idea. I'm guessing it was whatever the standard rates were for therapy at the time.

QuoteDid you play only an hour at a time, or from, like, dinnertime until 3am? Once a week? Was the DnD the only kind of therapy you engaged in during these sessions?

A couple of hours every other week, with "noral" therapy interspersed.

QuoteWere there other games you played?

There was other play therapy, which was pretty big at the time.

QuoteWere all the other players always the same too, or did the player roster change every so often?

Same players for the most part, although we did lose and gain people every now and then.

QuoteDid you really use DnD to get at these deep emotional issues, or did you have to play a game with less "roll-playing" rules in it?

D&D

QuoteDid you and the other players ever do anything else together besides game (and therapy)?

Nope.

QuoteHow about your entertainment gaming?

I didn't have a gaming group at the time, so my gaming outside of the therapy was limited to solo adventures and the various fighting fantasy books coupled with lots of reading.

QuoteHow long did you engage in the two experiences?

About a year of therapy gaming. About 25 years of regular gaming.

Ugh, I can't do it anymore. You have out-endured me in this pointless and silly debate. I concede. You win. Call me arrogant, ignorant, full of hubris, shit, or the worst dickhead on the planet... I don't care. I'm gonna go spend time with my son, and then watch Heroes. Have fun gaming.

My intent when answering your questions certainly wasn't to "outlast" you. I figured you asked because you wanted to know. Oh well...

I WIN!!! I WIN!!!

Quote from: James McMurrayMy intent when answering your questions certainly wasn't to "outlast" you. I figured you asked because you wanted to know. Oh well...

I WIN!!! I WIN!!!

I did, but I can't summon the energy to keep going on this topic, so yes... you win.