Quote"Roleplaying" with a therapist is therapy, "roleplaying" with a game is a game. They are two different things with some superficial similarities.

A therapist whois good at this will incorporate the concepts of gaming and slip the therapy in, preferably unnoticed. I'm not talking about "roleplaying" along the lines of "Ok Jimmy, you be your dad, Dad, you be Jimmy." I'm talking about playing an actual RPG (in my case it was D&D). Perhaps in your experience it wasn't gaming, but your experience is not universal.

Quote"All roleplaying is group therapy" was said, I believe, by Clinton Nixon (one of them Forgers, anyhow). Guess what? He ain't a psychologist.

So? I'm not Clinton Nixon (whoever he is), nor do I care what his credentials are.

QuoteIt would be bad for a psychologist's patient to think of the roleplaying they're doing as a "game" - an activity purely for amusement.

I play for enjoyment, which is not the same as amusement. YMMV.

QuoteThey have some of the same skills, and there are superficial similarities, but the different aims they have give them different results, and those aims are incompatible.

The aims are only incompatible when doone poorly. Even using the Surgeon / Butcher comparison (which isn't a good one) you can have someone trained as both. Under a different legal system then here it would be possible to surgically remove something and use it as food, combining surgery and butchery just fine. It wouldn't be very efficient, but that's one of the many points where your comparison falters. Good, enjoyable, DMing combined with good therapy (subtle if needbe) can be incredibly efficient as it allows the counselee to enjoy himself while exploring issues, something that is often the opposite case.

QuoteI would not let a butcher attempt surgery on me, nor would I ask a surgeon to portion up a side of beef; likewise, I would not let a psychologist tell me to start rolling dice to decide what to do next (nobody quote The Diceman, for fuck's sake) and still less would I let a gamer try to use roleplaying as therapy on me.

Certainly not, and neither would I. But you're looking at them as seperate and irreconcilable, which they're not.

QuoteIt'd also be bad - and unhealthily dangerous - for a bunch of gamers to think of the roleplaying they're doing as "therapy."

I never claimed otherwise. I'm talking about trained professionals, not Joe the GM and his living room couch.

QuoteIt's not gaming, no matter how much you want it to be.

Where's this Official Gaming Dictionary you're using, or is that your personal definition?

Quote"Mindless" fun and thinking "deep thoughts" would be mutually exclusive I would think.

At the same point in time, sure. But gaming sessions generally last longer than an instant. Over the course of several hours it's possible to experience all sorts of different things while gaming, two of which can be deep thoughts and mindless fun.

QuoteSince you brought it up, I can say from direct experience that even RPT (roleplaying therapy) does not, in and of itself, provoke real emotion.

Roleplay Therapy and Roleplaying Game Therapy are two seperate things. Roleplay Therapy is of the "switch places Jimmy and Dad" type (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=role+play+therapy&spell=1). Roleplaying Game Therapy uses RPGs to explore issues(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=psychologist+dungeons+and+dragons+therapy). Maybe that's the difference we're experiencing in the discussion, a matter of definition.

Quote from: James McMurrayWhere's this Official Gaming Dictionary you're using, or is that your personal definition?

Neither. Many people would say it's a combination of experience, intelligence, and common sense. You can call it whatever you want.

QuoteAt the same point in time, sure. But gaming sessions generally last longer than an instant. Over the course of several hours it's possible to experience all sorts of different things while gaming, two of which can be deep thoughts and mindless fun.

Yeah, ok. We can have "mindless" fun and think "deep thoughts" in the same game session. Ya got me. Completely irrelevant to the point of this thread, but ok.

QuoteRoleplay Therapy and Roleplaying Game Therapy are two seperate things. Roleplay Therapy is of the "switch places Jimmy and Dad" type (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=role+play+therapy&spell=1). Roleplaying Game Therapy uses RPGs to explore issues(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=psychologist+dungeons+and+dragons+therapy). Maybe that's the difference we're experiencing in the discussion, a matter of definition.

They are not two separate things, they are two methods of doing the same thing, which is attempting to heal the emotionally wounded. Despite your attempt to prove otherwise, all your google links accomplish is to prove my point. In Wayne Blackmon's case, the RPing wasn't even practiced by the therapist. It was just discussed during therapy sessions, where the therapist used discussions of the game to guide his patient to talk about more meaningful issues. Wayne did not begin playing to deal with those issues. He played because he wanted to have fun with other people... it was the only setting in which he felt comfortable enough to interact with other people.

The article by John Hughes talks about how RPing is used by a patient to bolster self-esteem and compensate for percieved short-comings. Let me quote from "Malori", the patient in Hughes' case study.

QuoteI had begun roleplaying in 1981. I was really thrown in the deep end. After playing just a few months we attended a roleplaying tournament. There were a hundred and fifty entrants, and I won. It came like a bolt out of the blue. I discovered I was very good at it. Initially this was my prime motivation for roleplaying. I think that time was the beginning of my depression - I was at university. It raised my self-esteem enormously. I was good at it, I knew I was good at it, I had proved I was good at it, and I was going to prove everyone else that I was good at it."

"I enjoy it on a very different level now. I noticed that when my illness was first diagnosed that when I roleplayed, I had no symptoms! I wasn't depressed, I wasn't physically ill. I was happy, I was strong. The difference between when I was roleplaying (especially when I was playing Jack) and when I wasn't was really quite strange. On one hand I was extremely ill, and on the other I was bouncy and energetic and having fun. I thought it would take drugs or intensive counselling to get that much relief from the sickness."

The patient herself tells us that her roleplaying was fun for her (especially while playing "Jack"). It made her feel good. So, even though she was doing it for the wrong reasons IMO, she still played because she was having fun. Wrong again sir.

DnD is used by therapists because it is fun for the patient. It allows them to relax, to be in their comfort zone and open up to the therapist. So not only is RPGing when used by a therapist in sessions not actual gaming (as all of us refer to it here on the internet), it's still fun for the patient despite it actually being therapy. Also, I doubt very seriously if Merten is talking about RPing as part of formal therapy sessions, and if he is then his rant against the word "fun" is even sillier than it sounds already. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just plain old ordinary silly.

"Not actual gaming?" So then playing an RPG, because it's fun, is not gaming. Interesting. I guess it's one of the milions of things that people all over the world agree to disagree about.

Most people in the world actually agree with this. Only a few tend to want to have it another way.

RPGPundit

Your point? My own personal experience is all I've got to go on, so what the rest of the world thinks they know falls kinda flat when it bounces up against the evidence of my experience. Luckily "what is gaming to you" is a very subjective question, so they can have their answers, I can have mine, you can have yours, and they can all coexistent despite not agreeing.

Quote from: SigmundAlso, I doubt very seriously if Merten is talking about RPing as part of formal therapy sessions, and if he is then his rant against the word "fun" is even sillier than it sounds already. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just plain old ordinary silly.

I'm not and I don't have experience of roleplaying and therapy sessions - and I'd rather leave the subject to the professionals.

Disagreeing about the silly-part, but that shouldn't be news anymore.

Quote from: James McMurray"Not actual gaming?" So then playing an RPG, because it's fun, is not gaming. Interesting. I guess it's one of the milions of things that people all over the world agree to disagree about.

Are you actually reading the posts, or just skimming for stuff you can quote in order to be argumentative?

Reading, why? The question doesn't seem to fit the quote you put it under, unless "I'm done with pointless arguing over a matter of opinion" a.k.a. "agree to disagree" somehow equates in your mind to "I want to be argumentative."

Just because I don't reply to every last tidbit of your post doesn't mean it wasn't read. Heck, there were a few things I could have disagreed with, but I decided that since we're so far apart on our views I'd just wander off with the comment that we aren't going to agree. I've made my points, you've made yours, and because of the differences of background we've arrived at different conclusions.

Quote from: James McMurrayReading, why? The question doesn't seem to fit the quote you put it under, unless "I'm done with pointless arguing over a matter of opinion" a.k.a. "agree to disagree" somehow equates in your mind to "I want to be argumentative."

Just because I don't reply to every last tidbit of your post doesn't mean it wasn't read. Heck, there were a few things I could have disagreed with, but I decided that since we're so far apart on our views I'd just wander off with the comment that we aren't going to agree. I've made my points, you've made yours, and because of the differences of background we've arrived at different conclusions.

I started posting in this thread because I agree with Pundit, and I don't believe anyone who says they don't play RPGs for fun. I do believe that they might not want to call it fun for some reason, one which I would probably find silly, but that's beside the point. Then you come and post some BS about RPGs used in therapy and try to say that's gaming without fun. I show that for the BS it is and you take a small part of one of my posts, use it out of context, then make up your own meaning for it. I'm saying people play these games to have fun. It's entertainment. Now ya'all are trying to tell us all here you play for some deep, meaningful "higher purpose" shit, and I ain't buyin it. You, specifically, are trying to say with this RPG therapy BS that those people aren't playing for fun (which is the point of the thread), and I say that's bullshit. Prove me wrong. I gave you direct quotes countering your erroneous point and you can't even be bothered to address them, just post some smartass twist on a small part of my post taken out of context. What this says to me is you're just screwin around in this thread, and I just wanted to know where you're coming from so I can respond appropriately, so I asked. Unless you can actually make a point I'll be moving on, have fun gaming .

I never said anything about gaming without fun. I've mentioned "deep thoughts" and "mindless fun." Those are just two points on the spectrum of things that can happen while playing an RPG.

I can't "prove it" beyond what I've already said: my experiences with RPGs as therapy were both fun and thought provoking. The reasons for playing at the time were varied, of which "fun" was a part. How about this: you say it's impossible to have therapeutic fun: prove it.

As I've said all along, my opinion is based in my personal experiences. Your opinion is based on yours. As such, our opinions differ, and that's o.k. If for some reason it isn't ok with you that someone disagree with you, perhaps you could use some therapy. I'd sugest a good, fun RPG for the session.

Quote from: James McMurrayyou say it's impossible to have therapeutic fun

Where'd you get this idea?

Quote from: SigmundDnD is used by therapists because it is fun for the patient. It allows them to relax, to be in their comfort zone and open up to the therapist. So not only is RPGing when used by a therapist in sessions not actual gaming (as all of us refer to it here on the internet), it's still fun for the patient despite it actually being therapy.

This is what I actually said. You then took only the "not actual gaming" part out of my post and started in with I somehow said therapy patients weren't having fun when gaming when in actuality I said the exact opposite. When you posted this:

Quote from: James McMurraythousands of counselors across the country (and probably world) use some form of role playing (sometimes with dice, sometimes without) in order to explore deep and meaningful issues with individuals and groups. I doubt they'd agree with you calling it wasteful and silly.

(text in quote bolded by me)
It was in response to a post I made about how I thought trying to extract deep meaning and emotional depth from a RPG was wasteful and silly, when real life is so much more important. My point has always been that RPGs are games, their purpose is entertainment. Nothing in any of the links you provided in a later post has contradicted that.

I think it's strange all this talk about therapy and rpgs, considering the fact that some folks who game are in obvious need of the former....going by the Creepy Gamer thread on TBP and the Pundit's rantings about Lawncrappers

"Lawncrappers. They freak me out, man"

Regards,
David R

Sorry, I misremembered, and hence misrepresented your stance. What you said was that gaming in a session wasn't actually gaming, as "all of us" refer to it. As I've already said, my experience puts the lie to that statement. But also as I said, it's pure opinion, so you're free to disagree.

Quote from: James McMurraySorry, I misremembered, and hence misrepresented your stance. What you said was that gaming in a session wasn't actually gaming, as "all of us" refer to it. As I've already said, my experience puts the lie to that statement. But also as I said, it's pure opinion, so you're free to disagree.

The reason I said as "all of us refer to it" is because RPGing is a social activity, a recreational activity. If a therapist were to actually run a game of DnD in a therapy session it would be for the express purpose of addressing emotional issues in what that therapist considered to be a therapeutic manner. It would a serious breach of ethics otherwise, one for which the therapist could get in very serious trouble. Since nobody else I've ever seen on one of these gaming forums has talked about playing DnD during therapy sessions, I felt safe in assuming very few of us game in that type of setting. If you are the exception to this rule then so be it, but that hardly "puts the lie" to anything I've said. Now if a whole bunch of other posters here on these forums were to post to this thread saying they too play during therapy sessions, I will concede your point.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm a recovering drug addict with 10 years clean, and 10 years of membership in a recovery program. I have many years of therapy as a patient under my belt, and I have also worked for 2 years as a counselor in a drug rehabilitation program. While I have talked about RPing in therapy (on both sides of the couch, as it were), along with many other issues and interests, I have never actually played nor heard of anyone playing a RPG during a session.

As I said, my experience differs from yours. I have played RPGs during sessions, both group and singular, with the dual intent of enjoying ourselves and finding things out about myself in a therapeutic environment.

Why do you feel the need to convince me that what you believe to be the truth is objective, not subjective?