Quote from: rgrove0172;924962I bought a chunk of FFG Star Wars stuff last spring and set up one, that's ONE session of Edge of the Empire. The scenario was a sort of Star Wars dungeon crawl through an abandoned and critter infested mining complex, dozens of kilometers across, hundreds of meters deep etc. Huge Place.

There was no way I was going to map all that after some consideration decided, as they goal was more or less a hunt for a specific item, to run it as a set of linked encounters. There was a chance of getting lost, random stuff too of course, but essentially there were 20 or so scenes that they players would wander through, it really didn't matter where they chose to go (up the ladder, down the vent shaft or through the busted security door for example) they would end up in one of those 20 scenes to be dealt with or avoided then move on. The players had a 'map' but not a physical one, instead it gave directions toward parts of the mine (maintenance section, control room, conveyor control hub, droid storage etc.) which correlated with the scenes they might encounter if they chose to go that general way.

I thought it was an efficient way to run the game and it turned out great. We had a ball, 8 hours of steady play through the endless corridors and maintenance shutes before facing the big nasty critter at the end with a gaggle of Stormtroopers thrown in as their presence at the off limits site was discovered.

After the game though, during the typical post game debrief, one of our new players asked about the map to the place. "It must be huge!" I told him it didn't exist. The game was a series of scenes I had established and walked them through. The guy came unhinged! "What? You mean there is no mine, its just a bunch of bullshit encounters you put us through?" I mean he was really upset. The other players kind of stared in wonder, like what was this guys problem. A few minutes before he had been swearing it was one of the best games he had ever taken part in. To make a long story short he left pissed and has never come back. He used the same 'illusionist' term I hear in this forum regularly several times in is ranting. My other players and I were sort of speechless, good riddance I guess. We had a great time.

That's the thing about this whole debate. Its perceived so differently by each individual, or each camp I suppose. My players were aware of how the game was structured 30 minutes in. They know how I operate and could see the sort of linked encounter mechanic readily, but didn't care... no more than that they supported it. They saw it as an effective way to present this huge sprawling complex and as long as there was an 'illusion' of free choice and navigation, they were fine. "Get one with the story!"  The new player though believed he had been fooled somehow, that somehow what he had been enjoying for nearly 8 hours had been a lie, like finding out your rollercoaster ride was a simulator instead of the real thing when its over. My response would be.."So what! Was it a fun ride?" while it was a deal killer for him.

Some people like Open World Games, some people like structured even Linear games with cutscenes. Not much you can do about it except try to clarify up front how you do things but even that isn't fool proof. Everyone doesn't fit into one neat pigeonhole or another, for one thing. Either party going ballistic is a little much. It is just a game. If your tastes don't match up, they don't match up.

Quote from: Headless;924139Not to call bull shit, but I'm going to call bull shit.  

On the other thread there are a bunch of people that say they do 15 minuets or less of prep.   Then they say they do a bunch of campaign prep so the don't have to do session prep.  Then they say they have pre generated dungeons rdy to go.  

I truly suspect there are people who do this.  Especially if you are running a streamlined commercial system, you let it do the work.

QuoteSecond of all and more importantly.  Can you teach me your ways?  You have a couple of short cuts and cheats that (from the sounds of it) vastly shorten you prep time (just not down to zero).

(1) choose a system where you don't need to stat out creatures or NPCs in advance, and if you do it takes 15 minutes tops to do so; (2) save everything you do so you can reuse if needed

QuoteSpecifically. How much campagin prep do you do?  How much time?  

None specific.  Although I've poured many, many hours over the decades into my primary game world.  Little is used but I do it for me.  But a campaign, as in a new group of players getting ready to begin; just whatever time it takes to print out character sheets, a set of rules, etc.

QuoteHow many dungeons do you have preped?  

I don't know exactly, maybe a 100.   I've made it a point over the years of downloading all the free dungeons I can find and have a good couple dozen I've bought.  Then another dozen that are my own. That's just dungeons, I have worlds, cities and villages, etc.

QuoteHow many NPCs? ( do you recycle NPCs?)

A couple dozen, they take about 5 minutes to make at level 1, up to maybe an hour at level 20; so not a problem.  

Quoteworld map?  

world maps

QuoteHow much of a plot do you have?  

None. Zero. Nada.  NPCs, nations regions have agendas and what they are up to, no plot.  If I need details on what NPC conflicts I can retread current events, history, or a movie.  Generally I choose history, truth is strange than fiction.  Now an adventure path type plot.  Sure, I have about two dozen favorite go to modules/dungeons that I string together to form an overarching NPC plot.   However long it takes me to print out a copy for the game.

QuoteIf you are working it out as you go along who takes the notes?  When do you take them, during or after?  How long does it take?

Not sure what you mean by notes.  I have stats or names I come up with I might jot down, but overall it's easy to remember.  It if is critical it's but a sentence and I have a special notebook for notes like that, and names, I'm notorious for not remember NPC names, and any rule rulings.  I leave it up to the players to take their own notes otherwise.  

QuoteDungeons.  Do you have a source for pre generated ones?  How long does it take you to build one from scratch?  Renovate one?

I do like to rewrite them, don't have to but I like it, also have dreams of one day commercializing my homebrew.  Rewriting takes a long time.  From scratch spend more time doing the map.  My notes for each room are literally 2-3 lines.  I might type up half a page or make a flow diagram, I love diagram, representing dungeon inhabitant relations/interactions/goals.

QuotePlease add any other other tricks that can help cut down prep time.  When I was younger I wanted to world build.  Now I just want to play.

World build for yourself.  A simple evocative description that ties into something players are familiar with is worth more than pages of text.

Quote from: rgrove0172;927985... The new player though believed he had been fooled somehow, that somehow what he had been enjoying for nearly 8 hours had been a lie, like finding out your rollercoaster ride was a simulator instead of the real thing when its over. My response would be.."So what! Was it a fun ride?" while it was a deal killer for him..

I think a better analogy is someone faking an orgasm, some mind, others could care less.

Quote from: Xanther;935812I think a better analogy is someone faking an orgasm, some mind, others could care less.

That seems like an uncharitable analogy. Who's the faker in this case?

Quote from: Nexus;935815That seems like an uncharitable analogy. Who's the faker in this case?

This is a tangent, so I'm going to go answer it in the thread where we are specifically covering this example.

Quote from: Nexus;935815That seems like an uncharitable analogy. Who's the faker in this case?

It is a stronger one, and kinda twisted; who knows who the faker is but there was fakery involved.  Was it all good,...or not?

Quote from: Xanther;935810I truly suspect there are people who do this.  Especially if you are running a streamlined commercial system, you let it do the work.



  (1) choose a system where you don't need to stat out creatures or NPCs in advance, and if you do it takes 15 minutes tops to do so; (2) save everything you do so you can reuse if needed

  None specific.  Although I've poured many, many hours over the decades into my primary game world.  Little is used but I do it for me.  But a campaign, as in a new group of players getting ready to begin; just whatever time it takes to print out character sheets, a set of rules, etc.

 I don't know exactly, maybe a 100.   I've made it a point over the years of downloading all the free dungeons I can find and have a good couple dozen I've bought.  Then another dozen that are my own. That's just dungeons, I have worlds, cities and villages, etc.

  A couple dozen, they take about 5 minutes to make at level 1, up to maybe an hour at level 20; so not a problem.  

 world maps

 None. Zero. Nada.  NPCs, nations regions have agendas and what they are up to, no plot.  If I need details on what NPC conflicts I can retread current events, history, or a movie.  Generally I choose history, truth is strange than fiction.  Now an adventure path type plot.  Sure, I have about two dozen favorite go to modules/dungeons that I string together to form an overarching NPC plot.   However long it takes me to print out a copy for the game.

  Not sure what you mean by notes.  I have stats or names I come up with I might jot down, but overall it's easy to remember.  It if is critical it's but a sentence and I have a special notebook for notes like that, and names, I'm notorious for not remember NPC names, and any rule rulings.  I leave it up to the players to take their own notes otherwise.  

  I do like to rewrite them, don't have to but I like it, also have dreams of one day commercializing my homebrew.  Rewriting takes a long time.  From scratch spend more time doing the map.  My notes for each room are literally 2-3 lines.  I might type up half a page or make a flow diagram, I love diagram, representing dungeon inhabitant relations/interactions/goals.

  World build for yourself.  A simple evocative description that ties into something players are familiar with is worth more than pages of text.

Hey, Xanther, do you want to pair up with me and help me write a book about this style:)? I've kinda put it on back-burner.

And yes, I tend to run commercial systems, though I've been thinking of ditching them once my homebrew takes a more definite shape:p.

Quote from: Xanther;935812I think a better analogy is someone faking an orgasm, some mind, others could care less.

OK, that's a good one:D!http://www.therpgsite.com/newreply.php?p=935837&noquote=1

Quote from: Nexus;935815That seems like an uncharitable analogy. Who's the faker in this case?

Well, in the example, one of the party knew some parts of the play experience was faked, and the other did not. Who do you think is the faker, the one who knows someone is faking, or the one who didn't know;)?

Quote from: AsenRG;935868Well, in the example, one of the party knew some parts of the play experience was faked, and the other did not. Who do you think is the faker, the one who knows someone is faking, or the one who didn't know;)?

Well, if I don't care if my partner is faking her orgasms or not it implies I'm a selfish ass that doesn't care if she's actually enjoying herself as long as I get mine. If she's faking because she thinks I'll enjoy it more and she doesn't mind its more selfless. The context is important. I think I knew what he meant but there's enough of a question that I wanted clarification since some reads were pretty uncharitable to Grove.

Quote from: Nexus;935891Well, if I don't care if my partner is faking her orgasms or not it implies I'm a selfish ass that doesn't care if she's actually enjoying herself as long as I get mine. If she's faking because she thinks I'll enjoy it more and she doesn't mind its more selfless. The context is important. I think I knew what he meant but there's enough of a question that I wanted clarification since some reads were pretty uncharitable to Grove.

I just answered who's the faker in the analogy, because it seems to have an obvious answer with no room for variation:).
I didn't draw conclusions from it regarding rgrove's GMing habits, family life, or anything like it;). The reading is up to you, and personally I'd assume that the analogy with his players is closer to "she doesn't mind", based on what he's been telling us.

Seems to me the faker would be a player who didn't like a GM's style but did NOT complain.

A GM who leads a player to think there's a cool elaborate location to interact with, but who in fact is just rolling on a table of canned situations, seems more analogous to a seducer who pretends to be interested in a personal relationship, but really just wants a sexual encounter.

Just tell me you want to bang me with your abstract exploration system. Don't lead me on by pretending to be simulating a cool elaborate location with a map, history, located guards that I'm actually exploring.

Quote from: rgrove0172;924962I bought a chunk of FFG Star Wars stuff last spring and set up one, that's ONE session of Edge of the Empire. The scenario was a sort of Star Wars dungeon crawl through an abandoned and critter infested mining complex, dozens of kilometers across, hundreds of meters deep etc. Huge Place.

There was no way I was going to map all that after some consideration decided, as they goal was more or less a hunt for a specific item, to run it as a set of linked encounters. There was a chance of getting lost, random stuff too of course, but essentially there were 20 or so scenes that they players would wander through, it really didn't matter where they chose to go (up the ladder, down the vent shaft or through the busted security door for example) they would end up in one of those 20 scenes to be dealt with or avoided then move on. The players had a 'map' but not a physical one, instead it gave directions toward parts of the mine (maintenance section, control room, conveyor control hub, droid storage etc.) which correlated with the scenes they might encounter if they chose to go that general way.

These words otherwise condemn you.

We've all worked with abstracted mapping (social networks and institutions are famously so). So abstracting physical locales is again old hat for us. Those bolded quoted words however set off alarm bells like mad.

Yet you keep on using the word "encounter," and it reminds of painfully familiar circular discussions about the pitfalls of precious, overly-crafted encounter-based adventures (I believe someone here coined "encountardization") from others who lament the same as you.

Here's an easy way to clear through this bombastic exchange: Clarify what you mean by this 'abstracted map'.

Were these 20 scenes "encounters" or "locales?" Were they ever interconnected in a fixed manner, or just a random table of grab bag treats? Could one go back through them to take alternate branches before reaching the end? Could one get "lost through its branches," (was it linear, branching, multi-branched, looping branches, etc.)? Or was it a pachinko game with a funnel at the bottom to the jackpot goal?

Quote from: Nexus;935808Some people like Open World Games, some people like structured even Linear games with cutscenes.

I like both, but I wouldn't like the GM posing a lot of "left or right corridor?" decisions when the result is the same either way. I think it's reasonable to complain about that. It should be "You travel through the sprawling complex, until X", with no decisions to make until the real decision point. As GM if you are going to pose a choice, make the results of that choice different.

Quote from: S'mon;936023I like both, but I wouldn't like the GM posing a lot of "left or right corridor?" decisions when the result is the same either way. I think it's reasonable to complain about that. It should be "You travel through the sprawling complex, until X", with no decisions to make until the real decision point. As GM if you are going to pose a choice, make the results of that choice different.

The point wasn't that its either extreme but that people will like different things.Hell, some people like totally linear railroads that go from one fight scene to the next but that's not what I gathered happened here in any case.

Its reasonable to complain about things you didn't enjoy but one, it sounded like the guy did more than complain but got into a major shouting match about it.

Though from the way Grove described the session it sounded their choices did matter. There just wasn't a concrete map of the place. The effect their choices had were determined by what he felt made sense and made for a better play experience. Their choices mattered but not in the manner of moving pieces around an interactive virtual board but more GM determined pacing and positioning. For my tastes that's about the only way I'd want to play a "dungeon crawl" type scenario but mileage is gonna vary. Seems like Grove knows his group but this player wasn't a good fit for their preferred style.

Quote from: Nexus;936028Though from the way Grove described the session it sounded their choices did matter. There just wasn't a concrete map of the place. The effect their choices had were determined by what he felt made sense and made for a better play...

Yes - seems reasonable to me. Personally when startting I would probably use some kind of simplified flow chart type map for this rather than no map at all, but I can imagine adding to/detailing the map in play the way I think Grove did, to create a consistent record. I've used simplified flow chart type line & bubble maps for big cavern complexes and I think for cities, can work very well.