Quote from: dbm;902565I can't point you to a primary source, but I recall (and Wikipedia concurs) that Fate was developed with the long term aspiration of making the Dresden Files RPG.

Plot thickens.

Fun fact, irrelevant to the thread: although I like Harry Dresden's adventures, I have been using The Dresden Files RPG to run adventures built on this comic book series:



With all this blood around, people exploding, severed limbs flying all around and my PCs playing Gravel's disciples, shit was sooooo cash. :cool:

Quote from: dbm;902565[...] Fate was developed with the long term aspiration of making the Dresden Files RPG.

Citation needed.

The timelines at least match up, but that smells a lot like George Lucas levels of retconning.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902577Citation needed.

The timelines at least match up, but that smells a lot like George Lucas levels of retconning.

Like I say, it's hard to put my hand on a direct quote which supports my recollection, but here are a couple of posts from Rob Donohughe which describe the evolution of Fate:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FateRPG/conversations/messages/4862


And this post gives more credence to SotC at least being a test-bed for Dresden files:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FateRPG/conversations/messages/4786


The Wikipedia entry from Dresden Files RPG talks about the previous work on the game being jettisoned and SotC used as a test bed:

"Jim Butcher, author of The Dresden Files, was an old friend of some of the founders of Evil Hat Productions. When Butcher's agent, Jennifer Jackson, started receiving queries about roleplaying rights to the series, Butcher contacted Evil Hat to create and publish a Dresden Files RPG. Evil Hat brought in Genevieve Cogman to do the research on the six Dresden Files that had been written by that time in 2004, as well as the ten more that were written by the time Evil Hat decided to put a cap on what the game would cover several years later. They also announced in 2006 that they'd needed to discard the alpha version of The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game and go right back to the drawing board, and that Spirit of the Century would use the first version of the engine they'd created for The Dresden Files RPG."

Quote from: finarvyn;902541It's totally incorrect, but interesting that you have heard this because it's exactly the way I tried to play it the first time. As you suggested, rolling more dF's doesn't make you "better" at all but screws with the probability curve so that you have the potential for higher extremes (both ways) but more probability of being near the center.

That's exactly why I could not wrap my mind around the system as described to me, it just seemed wrong somehow. I'm glad I asked for clarification.
Fuck whoever told me wrong then, I'm gonna have to look into Fudge...
Well, maybe after these next couple campaigns.

QuoteEvil Hat brought in Genevieve Cogman to do the research on the six Dresden Files that had been written by that time in 2004

Fate 1.0 being released in 2003, that definitely does imply the Dresden work goes right back to the beginning.  Interesting history.  I stand corrected.

Jim Butcher is a friend of Fred Hicks; Fred new him when the first Dresden book was still being written.

Quote from: dbm;902643Jim Butcher is a friend of Fred Hicks; Fred new him when the first Dresden book was still being written.

He is or was the webmaster and forum moderator over at http://jim-butcher.com/

If you listen to this podcast both Jim and Fred are on it:
http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?cat=599

Again, they talk about how the game is intentionally keyed to supporting narratives like Dresden, and imply that Aspects are the key mechanism that facilities this.

Okay so with Fudge, the whole point is *not* to use modifiers often, we use the straight up dice throws with the five point fudge system , where every character is superb doing one thing, very good with doing two other things, above average at doing three things, and is mediocre at everything else (no dice mods).

This game system is inherently designed to ensure that every player that creates a character will have the opportunity to use their skills and abilities to influence the game. This is a game that is designed to ensure that all the players can meaningfully participate, and throws the rules lawyers and min-maxers who invariably try to hog the spotlight into the gutter, where they rightfully belong.

Now Fate spun this around a bit, by giving the players the tools to meaningfully participate as co-GMs, to not only influence their characters development, but the GMs gameworld as well. Some GM's are very uncomfortable with this.

Finally AD&D and Fudge are very closely related. If you look at AD&D character attributes, the attribute ability modifiers typically chart across a range which exactly matches the range Fudge dice results provide, namely -4 to +4. Just found this veeeery interesting, j...just sayin.

Quote from: GameDaddy;902864Finally AD&D and Fudge are very closely related.

I always found FUDGE to be essentially GURPS with simpler, less interdependent mechanics.  I don't see the AD&D analogy at all.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902907I always found FUDGE to be essentially GURPS with simpler, less interdependent mechanics.  I don't see the AD&D analogy at all.

Well it did start out as GURPS with size scaling done right.

Quote from: daniel_ream;902907I always found FUDGE to be essentially GURPS with simpler, less interdependent mechanics.  I don't see the AD&D analogy at all.

Take any attribute, then look at the modifier, compare it to D&D;

Attribute    (D&D Modifier)     Fudge equivalent     Fudge Description        
Value        
   2-3        (-4)                  -4                        Abysmal  
   4-5        (-3)                   -3                        Terrible
   6-7        (-2)                 -2                        Poor
   8-9        (-1)                   -1                        Mediocre
   10-11      (0)                     0                        Fair
   12-13     (+1)                  +1                       Good
   14-15     (+2)                  +2                        Great
   16-17     (+3)                  +3                        Superb
   18-19     (+4)                  +4                       Legendary

Any D&D skill gets to use the attribute bonus modifier as part of the d20 die roll. As the character gains levels they can usually add 1 skill rank rank for each skill they have, which gives them a +1 bonus on a d20 die roll.

Any fudge dice roll gets to use the fudge modifier for the skill description. For example using a legendary skill provides a +4 bonus on a fudge die roll, which is 4df+4

Each fudge pip is worth +4 D&D pips, so a legendary skills roll would add +16 to your D&D skills roll attempt if you were using a d20 to make the skills roll check instead of using 4df.

It is eminently transferable. Now this allows me to use D&D character very easily in Fudge, and vice versa, because the attribute and skills resolution mechanics are essentially at the very core 100% compatible, just using different scales.

Now Gurps was a 3d6 system, and each GURPS skill point adds a modifier of one to your die roll, and you only have to roll under your skill level (Think d&D attribute here) so it is very nearly compatible with both D&D and FUDGE.

These three systems, use different mechanics to look at the same basic range of attributes, (GURPS range is slight smaller, so each modifier is slightly more powerful than in D&D or Fudge) ...and these may be called attributes, these may be called skills, these may be called (In Fudge) Gifts & Faults, as well.

...any other questions about this?

I think that while the comparisons with GURPs aren't out of place, they do miss the range of Fudge. Fudge isn't just 5-Point Fudge. The core rules include a lot more radical options like "subjective character creation" (you just build the character as you see fit, without point restrictions, like TSR Mavel Super Heroes' modelling method)  as well as option for diceless play. While it is common for Fudge games to provide a fixed list of Attributes, it is not required. You can have one player in the same game session create a character with "Strength, Dexterity, Constitution,Intelligence, Charisma" attributes and another with just "Fighting, Thinking, Chatting". Hell, in Mutant Bikers of the Atomic Wastelands is didn't even use Attributes, just had Skills.

This extreme range of options makes Fudge hard to pin down, but it doesn't make it very fun system with which to design games, or just customised campaigns.

Quote from: Soylent Green;903217I think that while the comparisons with GURPs aren't out of place, they do miss the range of Fudge. Fudge isn't just 5-Point Fudge. The core rules include a lot more radical options like "subjective character creation" (you just build the character as you see fit, without point restrictions, like TSR Mavel Super Heroes' modelling method)  as well as option for diceless play. While it is common for Fudge games to provide a fixed list of Attributes, it is not required. You can have one player in the same game session create a character with "Strength, Dexterity, Constitution,Intelligence, Charisma" attributes and another with just "Fighting, Thinking, Chatting". Hell, in Mutant Bikers of the Atomic Wastelands is didn't even use Attributes, just had Skills.

This extreme range of options makes Fudge hard to pin down, but it doesn't make it very fun system with which to design games, or just customised campaigns.

Fudge has always struck me more as a system-creation-kit than a system.

I told SOS something similar when he was soliciting feedback on one of the early drafts: that it wasn't a game so much as a really good essay on rpg design with copious worked examples.