TheRPGSite

So over on ENWorld, I find this lovely little repost (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13674150#post13674150) from David Noonan's blog:

QuoteWhy 4th Edition Is Like Clouds In The Sky: If you're really excited about 4th edition, it comes out next May. If you're still sitting on the fence, it comes out next May. And if you hate it with fire of a thousand suns, well, it comes out next May.

I'm flattered that some people are going to reinterpret their 3rd edition games for 4th edition, and I'm disappointed that other people are going to stick with 3.5 no matter what. You've got months and months to make what is a pretty important purchasing decision--at least it's important in terms of your hobby game of choice.

(As a side note, I'd sound completely ridiculous if I said something like, "You shouldn't use all those 3.5 books I worked really hard to write." They're good books. Seriously. We just learned a lot while writing them and playing with them, that's all.)

So you've got time. We're going to reveal more and more of the game as time goes on, both here on the wizards site, in the preview books, and at D&D Experience (Feb. 28 to March 3 in DC). But all those individual "reveals" are clouds in the sky. You can admire the clouds' beauty or shake your fists at them, but they're just going to keep moving across the sky anyway.

There's nothing wrong with cloud-watching. If you're a farmer, you need to watch the clouds at least a little. (Maybe DMs are like farmers, but that might be straining the metaphor.) But farmers know that no amount of cloudwatching will bring the rain. (And don't mention cloud-seeding; it messes up the metaphor.)

You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. Given the circumstance you're in as a D&D player right now, those responses are all valid. But none of them move the clouds.

Or as Celebrim over at ENWorld so wonderfully put this piece of patronizing shit:  "Ahh, you mere customers. Shaking your puny little hands at the clouds. You amuse me with your concern for our little storms and your shamanistic dancing, but such matters are truly above you little ones and we aren't going to pay the slightest attention. So deal with it."

I'm officially done with these assholes now.  They've made a grognard out of me, I'm sticking with 3e.  Got that forum up yet James?

While I find it hard to see a charitable reading in the quote your provided, I think it would be fair to point out that Mr. Noonan is one man in a large organization.  So he may be a dillweed, but I'm not sure that reflects on the whole of Wizards.

Hard to imagine why anyone would come out with something so likely to alienate his customers. Really odd.

It looks like a semi-poetic statement of common sense to me.

Agreed.


And I think they're just working the mob a bit- and doing a splendid job of it too. Not that, as mobs go, this one is particularly hard to work.

Stupid and patronizing? Yes. But it's just some designer dude's blog, it's not the company line in mile-high letters on their homepage.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a harsher response to all the pissing and moaning.

There gets to a point though where statements like the above make me just go 'meh' and give up.

Such as:

QuoteBut all those individual "reveals" are clouds in the sky. You can admire the clouds' beauty or shake your fists at them, but they're just going to keep moving across the sky anyway.

Okay, I COULD get angry, I COULD admire the clouds... Or after three or four clouds have passed and they're all the shape of George Bush then I might just go inside and ignore the weather for the time being. Or, in other words, if they keep dribbling out snippets I don't like I may as well give up now and not buy the new edition.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt looks like a semi-poetic statement of common sense to me.

Seems it to me too. Not to say it isn't coming off as solid jerkery, but all that means is he found an interesting way to say, "4th ed is coming no matter what so either give it a chance or move on".

One more thing

QuoteI'm surprised there hasn't been a harsher response to all the pissing and moaning.

So true Ghost Rat. So true.

An odd thing to post publicly. I don't think he realizes how completely condescending he sounds. It's not easy to maintain proper tone on the internet, and more and more people seem to fail their e-diplomacy rolls every day.

I have not affected David Noonan. But David Noonan has affected me.

I understand that one has to shut out the asshattery out there.

But to baldly state you will not be affected by what anyone has to say... I've seen that attitude in game designers before. And the end results are seldom pretty.

Faith_in_4e--;

Sure J - well, at least, you could go there, register, and tell me how I'm doing.  It's up and running, I'm just playing with the design to get it how I want it - modifying the skin as it were.

The first skin is meant to look like 3rd Edition books.

The next skin I'll work on will look like...maybe d20 Modern or something.

That way, no matter d20 you are playing, you can have th forum look like the one you like.

So if you're ok with the dust of my minor renovations - it's //www.d20haven.com - that's the relatively blank homepage but has a menu bar with a link to the forums (or you can just go directly to //www.d20haven.com/forums)

thanks for asking J!

Jesus, these guys are doing an utterly fucked up job of marketing and relations.

RPGPundit

PS: I usually take it as a VERY bad sign when any new product is marketed with a lot of veiled or open contempt for the existing fans. It usually means that the people involved in the creative process are either people who really don't know what made the original product great, or people who are feeling VERY defensive about their product, because deep down they're very uncertain about where they're going with it.

PPS: and the irony being that its the very same company that did such an awesome job of psyching everyone up for 3rd edition. You can really tell that they're missing the PR skills of people like Atkinson and Dancey.

Oh...and yeah...this is just one of those little things that gives me a pause with respect to 4th Edition. As I always say, I'll take a look at the rules when they come out and decide then.

But this attitude does not put me in the most charitable mood to view those rules.  And I would think, given the kind of split reaction I've seen, they'd be a bit more careful about doing just that - trying to recapture the people that are not in a charitable mood.

Diplomacy Check: Failed.

Hmm.

I...

Hmm....

Well...

Hmmmmmm....

Yeah. Okay. Dude, I know you're going to make the game anyway? And I know you don't have to listen to anyone's issues/complaints/suggestions?

But that's just really, REALLY bad Customer relations. A case of better to keep your mouth shut etc. etc.

My 3e dungeon is moving along nicely, thanks. Everyone's having a great time. All my books (and I have a lot) and computer aids (and I have alot) are still quite readable and functioning nicely. I think that it behooves you to give ME a reason to care enough about your 4e to consider moving up to it, instead of giving me a reason to cock my head to the side and go "Really? REALLY?" like Stan in a good South Park episode.

After all, my money is like a cloud in the sky, drifting by overhead without a thought in the world about what you think about it. You can shake your fists, beg, plead, cajole, etc. etc. - but the only thing that'll make it rain down on your head, chief, is a good product and not pissing off potential customers.

Just, you know, sayin'.

So drop the attitude and quit wasting time on smug little blog entries about how Above It All you are and write the damn books.

Well, he also says this:

QuoteThe weird thing is that playing D&D is something that might move the clouds. In fact, it's the thing that got the clouds moving in the first place. In other words, play your D&D game with a critical eye--what's working and what isn't? We've seen a lot more of this already in message board traffic since the 4e announcement; an impending new edition makes everyone think a little more deeply about the game they're already playing.

In a way, you've been playtesting 4e all along by playing 3e and sharing your experiences with us and with others. The more you tell us about your game, the more we understand what's going on. And the game is moving along, but it ain't done yet. We can--and will--make it better before May.

I'm not really trying to defend the man, and his further statements are still not all that great, but overall I don't think they are really that bad.

I totally understand where your coming from but I've realized we can't all get along all the time, and even an asshat can produce something worthy.

Quote from: James J SkachSure J - well, at least, you could go there, register, and tell me how I'm doing.  It's up and running, I'm just playing with the design to get it how I want it - modifying the skin as it were.

The first skin is meant to look like 3rd Edition books.

The next skin I'll work on will look like...maybe d20 Modern or something.

That way, no matter d20 you are playing, you can have th forum look like the one you like.

So if you're ok with the dust of my minor renovations - it's //www.d20haven.com - that's the relatively blank homepage but has a menu bar with a link to the forums (or you can just go directly to //www.d20haven.com/forums)

thanks for asking J!

Yeah, I went ahead and registered, and even made a shortcut thingy on my Opera toolbar so I won't forget about it.

You'll be dropping us a line when it's up and running, right?

The clouds, I like that.

Dave Noonan. What a guy.

At least it's not a Blue Bolt.

I think that people will buy the game or not buy the game, their decision will have far more to do with how they feel about the game than how they feel about WoTC. They can afford to be assholes at this point, it wont hurt them- not even a little bit. As a matter of fact, it will probably lead to more sales in the long run, as blog entries like this keep people thinking about 4e; reposting blog entries like this gets people who weren't thinking about 4e thinking about 4e. Being a nice guy might get you noticed, but being an asshole is surfire. The more people that notice, the more people thinking/knowing about the game. And at the end of the day, it's the game that sells the game not the public face of the company that created it.
I worked at a SF bookstore when WoTC introduced MTG. People came in and talked about how much of a racket the game was, how much of rip off it was to buy all the cards, and how the people at wizards were greedy assholes- and then they would buy a metric assload magic cards.

Holy crap, I agree with J Arcane!

And the Pundit may be on to something suggesting that there is some insecurity there about the product.  They are on far shakier ground than they were with the introduction of 3e.

Is it possible to fail your e-diplomacy roll when you are on the reciving end?


I mean, maybe I'm a freak, but I just don't see what you guys see when you read all that.  Maybe it helps that 'David Noonan' is a name I've only heard twice now, or maybe I'm just not in a mood to get pissed about anything right now.

So: Guys says: fourth edition is coming. You can get happy. Hey, its coming. You can get mad:Hey it's coming. You can not care: hey it's coming.

This is something hugely condescending? Insulting?  What???

Or are allayouse spoiled manchildren used to getting your own way alla time that when someone says 'hey bucko, the world don't spin on your dime' you gotta take it as harshing on your high?

WTF?

:confused:

In other news, in about twenty billion years the sun is gonna burn out and the earth is gonna die.  And there ain't a damn thing you can do about it no matter how you slice the cheese.

Yes, but it could also be that 4e is coming and nobody gives a shit because there are so many other options out there and 3.5 is working great for most folks anyways.  What's annoying about it is the underlying assumption that the very power and ubiquity of 4e makes it an utterly inevitable choice.  The coming of 4e is decidedly not comparable to the burning out of the sun, even relative to the hobby.  It's more like a big meteor shower or solar eclipse, maybe.

Quote from: walkerpYes, but it could also be that 4e is coming and nobody gives a shit because there are so many other options out there and 3.5 is working great for most folks anyways.  What's annoying about it is the underlying assumption that the very power and ubiquity of 4e makes it an utterly inevitable choice.  The coming of 4e is decidedly not comparable to the burning out of the sun, even relative to the hobby.  It's more like a big meteor shower or solar eclipse, maybe.

See: I don't see where he says or even implies that 'you must buy it when it comes out'... to use your words 'utterly inevitable choice'.

Sure, he expresses disappointment that some people won't be buying it. Why wouldn't he? He undoubtedly is somewhat proud of his work.

The point is that no matter how you feel about it (and for some reason I really want to 'go canadian' and say aboot.... have no idea why).. it IS coming out.

And this is condescending?

You don't like the sun burning out as further examples of inevitability? Fine, your mama is gonna make some vegetables for dinner, wailing and gnashing the teeth ain't gonna stop that neither.  And if, by chance, you happen to like vegetables? Well, I doubt that's why she's a'cookin' them.

I think it's just the tone of it, that it should matter at all.  But you're right, if you read it straight out, it could come off as just being very factual and not condescending at all.  But a company in Wizards' position has to be very careful about not appearing arrogant.  The nerd audience is unforgiving.

QuoteAnd this is condescending?

No, what's condescending is the attitude of "we don't care what the fuck you like or don't like about 4e, we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want, and there's nothing you ignorant peons can do about it."

He's essentially saying "We don't care about you, we don't care what you want, so just shut the fuck up and take it."

This is not a healthy attitude to take towards your customers.

Quote from: walkerpYes, but it could also be that 4e is coming and nobody gives a shit because there are so many other options out there and 3.5 is working great for most folks anyways.

Walker, buddy... there's a lot of "could bes" in this world but you can bet your ass that "nobody giving a shit about 4e" is most certainly not one of them.

3.0 edition was working great for most folks and they still sold a shitload of 3.5 books with little efforts and minimal repackaging.

4th edition is very likely going to be a success (by this industry's standards anyway) because a lot of people actually do give a shit.

Shit... I sure said "shit" a lot of times, here :p

As for the sentiment expressed in this thread: I didn't get the impression Noonan was insulting. He's merely saying that 4th edition is coming and people can hop onboard or not. That's being straight with people. Plus, people overestimate the effect of PR in this industry. The customer-base is pretty hardcore and from personal experience, most of them don't care.

Dave Noonan could tell every gamer that they can go fuck themselves and WotC would still sell 4e like hotcakes. Heck, Justin Achilli used to throw all sorts of assertions concerning his customer-base and guess what? The WoD was still selling a lot of books.

Unless you're a small fish (independant company) where you can make "pity-sales" and false swap sales (you buy my product, I'll buy yours) it actually doesn't matter one bit.

That's the painful truth of it.

Yeah...Folks think employee blogs are the shit, and they can be - until something like this happens. Personally, I'd only allow an official company blog, one overseen by the PR department.

Seanchai

Quote from: walkerpI think it's just the tone of it, that it should matter at all.  But you're right, if you read it straight out, it could come off as just being very factual and not condescending at all.  But a company in Wizards' position has to be very careful about not appearing arrogant.  The nerd audience is unforgiving.

I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong here. They can be King Assholes of the Universe and they will still own the market. You and I might not like them, but you and I weren't going to buy their products anyway- but were we into D&D, really into D&D, I really doubt that anything short of the execs at Wizards going on a baby killing spree would stop us from buying the new edition. And, really, if I've learned anything from Star Trek and Star Wars it's that the nerd audience might harbor long term anger in their hearts but they usually fairly quick to forgive with their wallets.

It is certainly true that you can ride out shitty standards and poor customer service and still be a collossal success, look at Dell and Walmart.  It can also very nearly destroy you, look what has happened to SOE and Star Wars Galaxies.  

Is that really something we want to see happen to the biggest RPG company there is?

Quote from: J ArcaneIt is certainly true that you can ride out shitty standards and poor customer service and still be a collossal success, look at Dell and Walmart.  It can also very nearly destroy you, look what has happened to SOE and Star Wars Galaxies.  

Is that really something we want to see happen to the biggest RPG company there is?

A guy in a blog saying 4th edition is going to happen no matter what is not going to destroy WotC.

I remember the introduction of 3.0.  It was like hearing from a good friend you hadn't seen in  a while  Sure, they had changed and grown up but I still saw that friend that was Basic and 1st ed and embraced them.  Like friendships you either grow together or grow apart.

No offense J, but I think you've said yourself (correct me if I'm wrong) that internet gamers do not represent a significant portion of the gaming world. That said, who is he really pissing off, in the grand scheme of things?
Also, it might be helpful to think about it from a variety of perspectives. If you're one of those people who is really excited about 4e, this blog post isn't going to make you mad. It might well do the opposite and function more like a rallying cry, "Hell yeah, all you 3tards stop yer bitchen', 'cause 4e is coming and you can't do shit about it! Woot! I'm going to play an anime druid next summer, fuck you!"

I don't think a blog post like this is going to affect Wizards' bottom line in any but the most marginal way.  But if I was the director of communications for Wizards, I'd be very pissed.  It's like sports, yes the Colts are looking good to win it all again.  Can you think what would happen if Manning said "you can root for us or not, but we're going to be there at the end holding the trophy"?  Okay, bit of a stretched metaphor, but it's just generally considered bad form to make assumptions of success before it has actually happened.

Quote from: Consonant DudeA guy in a blog saying 4th edition is going to happen no matter what is not going to destroy WotC.

That isn't the point.  The point is, if this is the kind of customer relations they're going towards, whether they succeed or fail, they're still not getting my damn money, anymore than any of the three companies I mentioned do.

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah...Folks think employee blogs are the shit, and they can be - until something like this happens. Personally, I'd only allow an official company blog, one overseen by the PR department.

Seanchai

I'm inclined to agree with this. Or at least blogs of folk who 'get' marketing, maybe -- like Dancey.

WotC's new products may be fantastic... but their PR of late is really questionable.  Not to mention the *very* poor decisions around Dragon, Dungeon and "Gleemax".

Quote from: SpikeOr are allayouse spoiled manchildren used to getting your own way alla time that when someone says 'hey bucko, the world don't spin on your dime' you gotta take it as harshing on your high?

Just for future reference, Spike, please note that when I don't like something, I might express that opinion.  Just like when I like something, I might say so.  If expressing an opinion makes one a spoiled manchild, then so be it.  But as far as I can tell, I don't get my way all the time.

I don't like Mr. Noonan's attitude.  He's speaking of inevitability.  Is this the same inevitability that was at work when we were all told that all major WotC announcements would be made at DDX?  His choice of imagery indicates that we are the poor groundlings and his work passes loftily over us, where it may strike us with lightning or provide life-giving rain.  That smacks me of arrogance.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the way Wizard's has been doling out info in seemingly tightly controlled doses leads me to think they are expecting (hoping?) us to parse every little thing they let slip.

Does this turn of events effect my feelings about 4e or Wizards?  Not really.  But it's my first real contact with this Noonan chap and I can't say I'm impressed.

I think Pundit hit the nail on the head when he called attention to the stark contrast to the 3e launch. Now, on the one hand, I think some of the problems with this launch are inevitable. Time between editions hasn't been as long (and if you count 3.5, not nearly as long), and there was no 'end of an era' moment like there was with TSR. As a result, to some extent, this edition needs to be sold a little more, at least to the slice of gamerdom on the internet.

And this certainly isn't the way to do it. I'm thinking back to 3e's release, and I think the equivalent statement was made by...Monte Cook, maybe? It was along the lines of "We know you really like your D&D, but we think ours is pretty neat, and we hope you give it a try." (If anyone remembers/has a link to the actual quote, it'd be helpful to see it.)

Because yeah, a new edition is coming.

No, there's no need to be a dick about it.

Again, part of marketing is: Don't say shit that might piss people off. Even if it is misinterpreted, its the WRITER'S fault, not the reader, when it comes to marketing. Is that right? I'm tempted to say "No, of course not" - but yes, its right. I'll never buy Poison'd because of the AP brouhaha. Is it a good game? Sure could be! Are the mechanics cool? Possibly. Will I buy it? No. Is that "right"? To me it is.

There IS such a thing as bad publicity, and unless Wizards has a magic ink in all my 3.0 and 3.5 books that makes them disolve into piles of goo when 4e hits the streets, I do not HAVE to buy their product. Anything they or their representatives say that pisses me off is a) possibly going to piss OTHERS off, 'cause I'm not exactly a fading flower, and b) cost them money.

Business don't like losing potential customers. Easy enough.

It's occured to me, that while the majority of D&D players may not be online at the moment...Wizards certainly wants them to be, with the digital initative and all. Given the tendency of cyberstuffs to, you know, stick around, this sort of thing could always come up later.

Now, Noonan's post is still pretty mild as that sort of thing goes, but it's a pretty bad precedent to set.

Quote from: LeSquideIt's occured to me, that while the majority of D&D players may not be online at the moment...Wizards certainly wants them to be, with the digital initative and all. Given the tendency of cyberstuffs to, you know, stick around, this sort of thing could always come up later.

Now, Noonan's post is still pretty mild as that sort of thing goes, but it's a pretty bad precedent to set.

Oh man, can you imagine if this is the kind of attitude they take towards software support of this new DI thing?  That'd be lovely.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, what's condescending is the attitude of "we don't care what the fuck you like or don't like about 4e, we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want, and there's nothing you ignorant peons can do about it."

So they're supposed to listen to the loudest, crankiest online posters and steer the game hither and yon to head off complaints? If they're six months into development (or whatever it is), then the time for market consultation is over. They probably had their own way of gathering information, and now it's finished. It would be foolish of WotC to be swayed by the hysterics of internet discussion boards, especially when the loudest people are almost certainly going to be the ones who hate the idea of 4E in the first place. I mean, should WotC start a thread on Dragonsfoot to see what those guys want to see in 4E?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut to baldly state you will not be affected by what anyone has to say... I've seen that attitude in game designers before. And the end results are seldom pretty.

Faith_in_4e--;

Yeah, that's my take on it, too.

Ryan Dancey was involved in a fairly extensive discussion of the design goals of 3e on Pyramid, which is where that message about the survey and the 4 types of gamers comes from.  Beyond trying to appeal to all of those 4 styles of play, another large goal was to not take things away from gamers.  

According to Dancey (before he lost his mind to the story game cult), one of the reasons why people didn't make the jump from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition was that 2nd Edition changed too many things that people were used to and, in particular, took things away that they liked.  That's why a lot of things that had disappeared in the 2nd Edition, from Demons and Devils to Assassins came back in the 3rd Edition.  If they are cutting things back out again and changing them, I'm concerned that they are repeating one of the same mistakes that they made in 2nd Edition, especially when they are making such a big point about how difficult it's going to be to translate characters between editions.

Quote from: J ArcaneThat isn't the point.  The point is, if this is the kind of customer relations they're going towards, whether they succeed or fail, they're still not getting my damn money, anymore than any of the three companies I mentioned do.

That is your choice. Personally, I'm going to buy the game if it feels improved to me and I'm going to enjoy it.

But hey, that's just me.

Quote from: HaffrungThey probably had their own way of gathering information, and now it's finished.

I would be quite curious to know what that way was.  I doubt it was all that sophisticated.

Quote from: HaffrungSo they're supposed to listen to the loudest, crankiest online posters and steer the game hither and yon to head off complaints? If they're six months into development (or whatever it is), then the time for market consultation is over. They probably had their own way of gathering information, and now it's finished. It would be foolish of WotC to be swayed by the hysterics of internet discussion boards, especially when the loudest people are almost certainly going to be the ones who hate the idea of 4E in the first place. I mean, should WotC start a thread on Dragonsfoot to see what those guys want to see in 4E?

So the upcoming playtest is not consulting the market or gathering information?  And to think Mr. Noonan was being a douchebag I have to hate 4e?  And exactly what would be the harm in asking Dragonsfoot what they would like in 4e?

To clarify, nothing that some RPG company dude might say about an RPG could ever possibly offend me. I really, truly don't care.

I'm just puzzled by the density of people who deliberately dole out little tidbits of 4E info to keep the excitement at a high pitch... and who then go on to tell their excited readers that said excitement won't count in the scheme of things.

Fair enough, but in that case I recommend that henceforth the marketing strategy until May '08 be to STFU.

From here,
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206483&page=1&pp=40

Quote from: WotC_DaveReally? You should read the whole blog entry. I've been ridiculously happy all day.

As for the patronizing thing, well, that wasn't my intent. And it's embarrassing when you write for a living and can't get your point across properly. Sorry about that.

Lemme try again: The game is coming out in May. Until then, your reactions to it are your own. They don't change the inevitable release of the game. It might not be worth it to get completely amped up--positively or negatively--because May is a long ways off. Telling us what's working/not working at your table right now is a good idea. We're still working on the game, after all.

There. That's what I was trying to say...insofar as I'm able to articulate it.

--Dave.

Apologizing- on the internet??!!!  Who the fuck does that? What an asshole!

AH-HAH! Caught in the web of his own contradictions!

He's dead to me now.

Quote from: AosApologizing- on the internet??!!!  Who the fuck does that? What an asshole!

HOW DARE HE!! :aaa:

Since it was brought up in this thread's OP, and there was a request to do so, I figured I let ya'll know.  It's a done deal - www.d20haven.com (http://www.d20haven.com/forums) is up and running.

I don't think Wizards give a rats-ass about their previous customers. They've already got YOUR money. This is just a little thing for their Future customers (i.e. the ones who are going to buy 4E) to rally behind.

Not bad business sense. That don't want to make the people that aren't buying their stuff happy.

Quote from: HaffrungSo they're supposed to listen to the loudest, crankiest online posters and steer the game hither and yon to head off complaints?

From what I've seen, the new direction for 4th ed seems to be coming from their own gaming clique, and has little to do with any feedback from outside. If they haven't taken on many of the crtiticisms so far, its worth starting to listen now before its too late.

Quote from: AosFrom here,
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206483&page=1&pp=40



Apologizing- on the internet??!!!  Who the fuck does that? What an asshole!

Good response from him. Shouldn't have got into that pickle in the first place though.

Piss poor phrasing on Noonan's part, I think. Mind you I don't think anything other than stony silence regarding internet reactions would be appropriate, it's just leaves them wide open to yet more hysteria and abuse.

An officer at Wizards of the Coast needs to take Mr. Noonan aside and remind him that, regardless of where he is or whom he is with, at all times he represents Wizards of the Coast and must avoid actions that would damage the company's prestige and good name.  If this is unacceptable to him, then his interests are no longer compatible with the company's interests and it would be satisfactory to the company that Mr. Noonan seek gainful employment elsewhere.  You are always on duty in this life, like it or (as is so often the case) not.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAn officer at Wizards of the Coast needs to take Mr. Noonan aside and remind him that, regardless of where he is or whom he is with, at all times he represents Wizards of the Coast and must avoid actions that would damage the company's prestige and good name.  If this is unacceptable to him, then his interests are no longer compatible with the company's interests and it would be satisfactory to the company that Mr. Noonan seek gainful employment elsewhere.  You are always on duty in this life, like it or (as is so often the case) not.

I hate it when my hobbies become a job and need to be taken seriously.  :( I don't even take work that seriously.

Quote from: CabFrom what I've seen, the new direction for 4th ed seems to be coming from their own gaming clique, and has little to do with any feedback from outside.

That doesn't even make sense. Their clique? Mike Mearls is not some internal suit who rose to the position. He's been brought to WotC because he's been extremely productive as a freelancer and seems to have popular favor as much with 3rd party companies (who employed him repeatedly) as with the many fans. What do you call that, if not listening to feedback from the outside?

Feedback has been coming for years. WotC have integrated bits from "outside", such as action points. They've checked out what was happening with 3rd party product (which is, almost nothing interesting but that's just my opinion) and integrated a few bits here and there, plus did their own experimentations in various D20 projects such as Modern, Star Wars, CoC, etc...

Seems like they'll take the bits they think appeal to people, will remove bits that have been extremely controversial (like the famed AoOs) and will make a few extra changes as well, as any decent new edition should.

Quote from: CabIf they haven't taken on many of the crtiticisms so far, its worth starting to listen now before its too late.

What criticisms? What exactly have they not been listening to? Some guy who wants Half Dragon/half hamster to be a core race?

Quote from: GunslingerI hate it when my hobbies become a job and need to be taken seriously.  :( I don't even take work that seriously.

All part of the corporate merry-go-round, unfortunately.

If we were to really hear what some of the Wizards honchos thought about the subject then I'm fairly certain the internet would go supernova.

It can be a pretty tough job doing what they do at a time like this, but that's what they signed on for. I've seen one-man outfits with more circumspection than Noonan.

At least he aplogised and clarified, although I doubt it'll do much good. The detractors already have their fat, juicy quote they can trundle out whenever the mood strikes. That's why it was such a stupid, myopic move on his part. This shit sticks.

Quote from: Consonant DudeThat doesn't even make sense. Their clique? Mike Mearls is not some internal suit who rose to the position. He's been brought to WotC because he's been extremely productive as a freelancer and seems to have popular favor as much with 3rd party companies (who employed him repeatedly) as with the many fans. What do you call that, if not listening to feedback from the outside?

Have you listene to the presentation they gave or read what they've written? Lots of info about 'this is how we've been playing it, we think you'll be excited'.

Suddenly, paying attention to what people have said as if that might be an indication of what they mean seems to be controversial.

Here's hoping that if 4th ed. fails, that the D&D license is bought out by Vivid Entertainment.  I need a corporate model I can believe in with a cool magazine subscription and online support.  ;)

Quote from: GunslingerHere's hoping that if 4th ed. fails, that the D&D license is bought out by Vivid Entertainment.  I need a corporate model I can believe in with a cool magazine subscription and online support.  ;)

The mind boggles at the potential applications of 'D&D Inside Her'... :D

Frankly, while I dislike the ideas, individual elements and attitude of 4e, I would rather read blunt opinions from developers than press release talk. Game publishing should be personal, passionate and occasionally polarising - not the thing of "focus groups" this and "you hurt my e-feelings" that. What we need is people like Gary Gyax and G. M. Skarka and, yes, Justin Achilli, not Mr. Corporate 22.

You had me up until Achilli.  I've never met the guy, but his online persona has half the charisma and none of the intelligence of Skarka or Gygax.  Grontar: The Frutang was a hoot, I'll grant.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, what's condescending is the attitude of "we don't care what the fuck you like or don't like about 4e, we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want, and there's nothing you ignorant peons can do about it."

He's essentially saying "We don't care about you, we don't care what you want, so just shut the fuck up and take it."

This is not a healthy attitude to take towards your customers.

Wow.  I completely didn't get that from the quote.

Only a very, very skewed reading can interpret that as "We don't care what you want to see in 4e."

It's saying that 4e's coming, whether you like it or not...  Which we knew, last I checked.  Or did you think a bunch of message board whining would halt its development?

-O

Dave Noonan is the other half of the WotC D&D Podcast with Mike Mearls.  He sees like a clever, articulate, and likeable guy.

Yeah, you know, he expressed himself pretty poorly, and he apologized for it.  So long as it doesn't become habit, I'd say let it go.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstYeah, you know, he expressed himself pretty poorly, and he apologized for it.  So long as it doesn't become habit, I'd say let it go.

Agreed.

Speaking of which -- new episode of the D&D podcast just arrived!  4E Q&A... oooooo :eek:

LIBRARY DATA

Clouds: The things my Traveller PCs fly over.

Quote from: StuartSpeaking of which -- new episode of the D&D podcast just arrived!  4E Q&A... oooooo :eek:

Link?

From the Podcast:

Noonan(?): "A lot of people have quickly moved through denial and anger -- although there are still some in Anger -- a lot of people are into bargaining now, and that's ok!  Because frankly we can't give you acceptance until May 2008, so take your time with the bargaining phase -- that's OK!"

The Kübler-Ross Grief cycle is Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Testing and finally Acceptance.  

Grief?

:confused:

Like a minority of posters on this thread, I read nothing more into the blog entry than Dave has since clarified was his original intent to convey.

It seems to me that accusations of patronising attitudes towards fans on the part of WotC say more about the accuser than the accused. And the fact that the original entry was cut short in the OP (and presumably the post on ENWorld) so as to incude the sections saying that nothing can advance or delay the arrival of 4E, but ommit the passage saying that playing 3.5 and offering feedback might still influence the final product supports that assumption. Some people are just looking for something to complain about.

Quote from: TrevelyanLike a minority of posters on this thread, I read nothing more into the blog entry than Dave has since clarified was his original intent to convey.

It seems to me that accusations of patronising attitudes towards fans on the part of WotC say more about the accuser than the accused.

At this point, all you can really do is sit back and enjoy the hysteria.

Quote from: AosAt this point, all you can really do is sit back and enjoy the hysteria.

And where better than Punditville to do just that?

Quote from: TrevelyanAnd where better than Punditville to do just that?

That's why I'm here; well, that and the chicks.

Quote from: DrewLink?

They have a player on this page you can use to listen to it, or search for it in iTunes.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/pod

Quote from: StuartThey have a player on this page you can use to listen to it, or search for it in iTunes.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/pod

Cheers. :)

Quote from: AosThat's why I'm here; well, that and the chicks.

But are the chicks prone to knee jerk WotC hate? Might take the shine off them a little :deflated:

Quote from: StuartFrom the Podcast:

Noonan(?): "A lot of people have quickly moved through denial and anger -- although there are still some in Anger -- a lot of people are into bargaining now, and that's ok!  Because frankly we can't give you acceptance until May 2008, so take your time with the bargaining phase -- that's OK!"

The Kübler-Ross Grief cycle is Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Testing and finally Acceptance.  

Grief?

:confused:

Grief seems as fitting a model as any other to follow for the people that don't like a new system.

Quote from: James McMurrayGrief seems as fitting a model as any other to follow for the people that don't like a new system.

That's exactly my point.  It's feeding into the "you're not going to like this" vibe.  

They'd be better to just stay upbeat, excited, and ship a fun game in the Spring. :)

He's not saying "you're not going to like this." He's saying "there are people that don't like this." For him to say otherwise would require either oblivious ignorance of the truth, out outright lying.

I'd be interested to compare the viewpoints of people who read his posts. Do the ones that feel slighted already dislike 4e, while the ones that like what they've heard about 4e think he's just being up front? In other words, how much is tied to what he's saying and how much is projection?

Quote from: James McMurrayHe's not saying "you're not going to like this." He's saying "there are people that don't like this." For him to say otherwise would require either oblivious ignorance of the truth, out outright lying.

I'd be interested to compare the viewpoints of people who read his posts. Do the ones that feel slighted already dislike 4e, while the ones that like what they've heard about 4e think he's just being up front? In other words, how much is tied to what he's saying and how much is projection?

I know what he wants to say -- I just continue to be bemused by the way in which WotC is handling the 4e announcement.

I don't feel slighted at all.  I spent exactly $0 on 3.x. :D
I think 4e will be a fun game.  It will be a different game, but that's ok.
That doesn't stop me from thinking the PR around the 4e announcement has been very, very strange.

Quote from: StuartI know what he wants to say -- I just continue to be bemused by the way in which WotC is handling the 4e announcement.

I don't feel slighted at all.  I spent exactly $0 on 3.x. :D
I think 4e will be a fun game.  It will be a different game, but that's ok.
That doesn't stop me from thinking the PR around the 4e announcement has been very, very strange.

Yeah, but on the other hand, the 4e announcement was going to make a lot of people angry, really angry, no matter what.  I think being nice about it would be akin to painting flowers and smiley faces on a nuclear warhead.
Anyway, its more entertaining this way.

Quote from: James McMurrayHe's not saying "you're not going to like this." He's saying "there are people that don't like this." For him to say otherwise would require either oblivious ignorance of the truth, out outright lying.

Or he could (and should) just say nothing.

We all know there are people who don't like it. But the decision has already been made - there WILL be a 4th Edition. For him to come out with an awkwardly worded blog post that could (and has been) "misinterpreted" was unnecessary and has backfired a bit.

Next time, he should keep his thoughts to himself. That's the nature of the Corporate world. Don't say ANYTHING that can be misinterpreted by ANYONE. Stick to facts and progress reports. You're the face of the Company; you have no opinions when you are discussing their Product.

Welcome to the World of the Real.

Quote from: AosThat's why I'm here; well, that and the chicks.

Chicks?!

Link plz!

-O

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd be interested to compare the viewpoints of people who read his posts. Do the ones that feel slighted already dislike 4e, while the ones that like what they've heard about 4e think he's just being up front? In other words, how much is tied to what he's saying and how much is projection?

I think that results of that would be very revealing, but I doubt the ability of every poster to be entirely honest about their feelings on the matter, even to themselves. Clearly there are some people who are quite open in their scepticism over 4E, but I suspect that there are a whole lot more who may harbour doubts and react negatively to otherwise neutral press material, and fear the worst in any situation rather than give the designers the benefit of the doubt.

That benefit of the doubt issue is what interests me. Most of the information we have been given regarding 4E has been deliberately patchy, yet how many people have been quick to interpret vague comments in the worst and more game destroying light? The reaction to the online game support material was similar - clearly it is not a complete game, only a tool for connecting disparate groups as the earliest information in the GENCON presentation explained, yet many people saw computers and jumped for the WoW hate without passing "Go" or collecting £200. Yet so many of these people insist that they are just being practical or impartial.

What is it that drives so many alleged fans of a hobby/game to assume the worst?

Quote from: TrevelyanWhat is it that drives so many alleged fans of a hobby/game to assume the worst?

Fear of change?

Quote from: AosYeah, but on the other hand, the 4e announcement was going to make a lot of people angry, really angry, no matter what.  I think being nice about it would be akin to painting flowers and smiley faces on a nuclear warhead.
Anyway, its more entertaining this way.

Why?

Just to make it clear - why was the 4th Edition announcement going to "make a lot of people angry, really angry, no matter what?"

Quote from: James McMurray

Quote from: TrevelyanWhat is it that drives so many alleged fans of a hobby/game to assume the worst?

Fear of change?

Cynicism?

Quote from: James J SkachWhy?

Just to make it clear - why was the 4th Edition announcement going to "make a lot of people angry, really angry, no matter what?"

Because there are a lot of people that don't like new systems when they already have one that works great for them. Has there ever been an announcement of a new edition for D&D that didn't piss off a bunch of people?

Fear of Change and Cynicism sound right to me, but also ironic in an age where entertainment is dominated by the often annual franchise. I think that Hasbro is betting that their newer younger players not only mind periodic change for it's own sake, but might actually be fine with it since it happens far less often than the other media out there.

Quote from: James McMurrayBecause there are a lot of people that don't like new systems when they already have one that works great for them. Has there ever been an announcement of a new edition for D&D that didn't piss off a bunch of people?

Ya know - it's been a long time.  But I seem to remember the announcement of 2nd Edition was more indifference than anger.  Then again, we didn't have the intrawebs to facilitate this level of angst...

Don't get me wrong, there were people who didn't want 2nd Edition and people who, after purchase, decided not to play it and stick with AD&D.  But in my own admittedly limited experience (in that I was in a regular group and didn't hang out with a lot of other gamers) it was met with more of a "Meh.  I have these books; I'll just play with them."

But I could be misremembering....

Quote from: James McMurrayBecause there are a lot of people that don't like new systems when they already have one that works great for them. Has there ever been an announcement of a new edition for D&D that didn't piss off a bunch of people?

The weird thing is that I've been excited, each and every time. As have the people I've gamed with. The prevailing attitude was always 'Cool! New toys to play with!'

I wasn't aware there was so much edition angst out there until I got online, just prior to 3E's release. It was certainly an eye opener. I often wonder how much the near instanteaneous (yet undeniably limited) nature of messageboard communication contributes to the general tenor of these discussions.

Quote from: James J SkachDon't get me wrong, there were people who didn't want 2nd Edition and people who, after purchase, decided not to play it and stick with AD&D.  But in my own admittedly limited experience (in that I was in a regular group and didn't hang out with a lot of other gamers) it was met with more of a "Meh.  I have these books; I'll just play with them."

But I could be misremembering....

This is my recollection also, or nearly.
 I had a friend who had too much cash and went out and bought the books- that was how I found out about 2e. My initial reaction was, "well, what is the fucking point of that? We already have a D&D." I don't have any recollection of anyone being pissed about its existence though- but that data comes from a sample of about 10 gamers, maybe 20 total, most of whom were entering the beer and tits phase of their lives, and had other things to get worked up about besides THACO- so, not much of a sample, really. As for me, I was no different, the discovery of excessive drinking, and the manifestation of my first girl friend (and the resulting regular sex) took me away from RPGs for a good long time after that- although, when I did play it was AD&D 1e. Based upon no evidence whatsoever (never read the books past a quick skim of the artwork while stoned), I assumed that 2e was total flop- years later, I was only mildly surprised to find out that there were people who actually liked and played it, lots of people, apparently. That said, I wasn't online when 3e came out (found out about during a trip to the mall, after all three books came out) and didn't learn about the level of angst said release generated until last year actually when I started playing again.

Honestly, I probably wait and see what other gamers in my area do.  I really don't care one way or the other about what Noonan said.  The reactions to his statements are interesthing though.  

I was pissed at 3.5 because we were keeping most of the basic system but fixing all the mistakes we made in 3.0.  However, it sounds like 4e will be a different game (whatever that will mean) but I am not an early adapter in any case.

Quote from: CabHave you listene to the presentation they gave or read what they've written? Lots of info about 'this is how we've been playing it, we think you'll be excited'.

Suddenly, paying attention to what people have said as if that might be an indication of what they mean seems to be controversial.

You said it man.  I'm getting more than a little sick of it.  God forbid we should use our brains and actually read and understand what the fuck the people who are designing the fucking game have said about the game.  I mean what, am I supposed to just assume they're all lying to me?

Quote from: DrewThe weird thing is that I've been excited, each and every time. As have the people I've gamed with. The prevailing attitude was always 'Cool! New toys to play with!'

I wasn't aware there was so much edition angst out there until I got online, just prior to 3E's release. It was certainly an eye opener. I often wonder how much the near instanteaneous (yet undeniably limited) nature of messageboard communication contributes to the general tenor of these discussions.

For what it's worth, I'm always excited that a new edition is coming up too. I'm also the guy who broke the news to most of my friends. Many do not frequent message boards at all. One GM I know (who reluctantly switched to third edition four years ago) was devastated.

Just this sunday, I broke (enthusiastically) the news to three guys while on our way to a game. One of them was apprehensive, the two others were livid. It's not like they weren't prepared. I had warned them a year ago that it was a matter of time but they were in denial.

I don't think it has anything to do with message boards. D&D has always been a fairly involved game that relies on brand fidelity. It's what makes it a great success long term but it does lead to a few bumps on the road when new editions come out.

Quote from: CabHave you listene to the presentation they gave or read what they've written? Lots of info about 'this is how we've been playing it, we think you'll be excited'.

I think you're seeing what you want to see.

They're designing the game, you (we) aren't. Someone has to make the final call and that's the designers. Were you expecting 4th edition to be entirely designed and playtested by its customer base? A sort of giant design-by-committee?

I don't see how "here's how we do it, we think you'll like it" = "we didn't pay attention to you the last 7 years, go fuck your geeky selves"

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, what's condescending is the attitude of "we don't care what the fuck you like or don't like about 4e, we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want, and there's nothing you ignorant peons can do about it."

He's essentially saying "We don't care about you, we don't care what you want, so just shut the fuck up and take it."

This is not a healthy attitude to take towards your customers.

I don't care what you don't like about 4e.  I'm sure there are oodles of others who don't care as well.  You don't want a 4e.  You've been ranting and fuming about it since it was announced.  Nothing that WOTC might say will appease you, likely it would simply further incite your irrational fanboy rage, so really, why waste any breath trying to do so?  You are not a unique and special little snowflake.

Amen, brother. Amen.

This thread didn't even need content, the title says it all.

Sometimes I wish the vast majority of people who play RPGs didn't.

People who said Wizards lost a sale:
Are you really going to not buy any 4e just because of this designer?

Really? No matter the quality or play value?

Quote from: TrevelyanWhat is it that drives so many alleged fans of a hobby/game to assume the worst?

Experience :(

Quote from: Thanatos02People who said Wizards lost a sale:
Are you really going to not buy any 4e just because of this designer?

Really? No matter the quality or play value?

Because of the designer?  No.  Because of his paymasters?  Sure.

One thing I noticed in recent threads about piracy is how many gamers are fiercely anti-commerce. The simple existence of an RPG company set up to make money seems to fill some people with outrage.

I'm curious why that's the case. Is it an age thing - is there a strong anti-business sentiment among the under-35 crowd? Is it the fact many gamers seem to be both money-scarce and obsessive about collecting? Is it an anti-authoritarian streak in geeks?

Whatever it is, I don't think I've ever seen any other leisure activity where the sellers are so reviled by the buyers.

Quote from: HaffrungOne thing I noticed in recent threads about piracy is how many gamers are fiercely anti-commerce. The simple existence of an RPG company set up to make money seems to fill some people with outrage.

I'm curious why that's the case. Is it an age thing - is there a strong anti-business sentiment among the under-35 crowd? Is it the fact many gamers seem to be both money-scarce and obsessive about collecting? Is it an anti-authoritarian streak in geeks?

Whatever it is, I don't think I've ever seen any other leisure activity where the sellers are so reviled by the buyers.

I'm all for people making money.  But you have to admit, there is a big difference between feeling like a game is made by somebody with similar tastes as you (even if they are trying to make a living at it) and being made by a corporate machine that either disregards you as a person entirely, or actively mocks you for buying their product.

As for anti-business attitude for the under-35 crowd, perhaps you haven't been paying attention to current events, but it seems as if megacorporations find a new way to make life worse for everyone on the planet on an almost daily basis.  I swear, the dystopian future of cyberpunk, with its megacorporations ruling the world, has never seemed so plausible.

Quote from: jgantsI swear, the dystopian future of cyberpunk, with its megacorporations ruling the world, has never seemed so plausible.

Hell yeah! Next stop, datajacks and cyber breasts!

What? The cyber breasts aren't for me. At least not directly. :D

Quote from: jgantsAs for anti-business attitude for the under-35 crowd, perhaps you haven't been paying attention to current events, but it seems as if megacorporations find a new way to make life worse for everyone on the planet on an almost daily basis.

[reply posted in Off Topic Discussions]

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerBecause of the designer?  No.  Because of his paymasters?  Sure.

Well, ok. After all, they say you vote with your pocket-book.

There is one thing I don´t like about Noonan´s implicit thinking.

Weather is a chaotic system out of human control. Shaking your fists at the clouds is pathetic, because the weather is not determined by anyone.

Except in a model that involves gods.
Implicitly, Noonan says they are gods, we are mortals. I don´t like that.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is one thing I don´t like about Noonan´s implicit thinking.

Weather is a chaotic system out of human control. Shaking your fists at the clouds is pathetic, because the weather is not determined by anyone.

Except in a model that involves gods.
Implicitly, Noonan says they are gods, we are mortals. I don´t like that.

:raise:

this whole 4ed frenzy has been interesting to me simply because i balked at switching to 3e back when it was first being shown and sold to us.
the changes in the game were too much for me to take and it flipped me out.
i tried 3e a few times with friends but eventually refused to switch from my pre-3e editions.
a lot of the reactions, justified or not, remind me of how i expressed my feelings over the switch.

deja vu.



dave

Quote from: baran_i_kanua lot of the reactions, justified or not, remind me of how i expressed my feelings over the switch.

Some of them. Although I think that now, like then, some other reactions are rather better thought out.