Quote from: J ArcaneIt is certainly true that you can ride out shitty standards and poor customer service and still be a collossal success, look at Dell and Walmart.  It can also very nearly destroy you, look what has happened to SOE and Star Wars Galaxies.  

Is that really something we want to see happen to the biggest RPG company there is?

A guy in a blog saying 4th edition is going to happen no matter what is not going to destroy WotC.

I remember the introduction of 3.0.  It was like hearing from a good friend you hadn't seen in  a while  Sure, they had changed and grown up but I still saw that friend that was Basic and 1st ed and embraced them.  Like friendships you either grow together or grow apart.

No offense J, but I think you've said yourself (correct me if I'm wrong) that internet gamers do not represent a significant portion of the gaming world. That said, who is he really pissing off, in the grand scheme of things?
Also, it might be helpful to think about it from a variety of perspectives. If you're one of those people who is really excited about 4e, this blog post isn't going to make you mad. It might well do the opposite and function more like a rallying cry, "Hell yeah, all you 3tards stop yer bitchen', 'cause 4e is coming and you can't do shit about it! Woot! I'm going to play an anime druid next summer, fuck you!"

I don't think a blog post like this is going to affect Wizards' bottom line in any but the most marginal way.  But if I was the director of communications for Wizards, I'd be very pissed.  It's like sports, yes the Colts are looking good to win it all again.  Can you think what would happen if Manning said "you can root for us or not, but we're going to be there at the end holding the trophy"?  Okay, bit of a stretched metaphor, but it's just generally considered bad form to make assumptions of success before it has actually happened.

Quote from: Consonant DudeA guy in a blog saying 4th edition is going to happen no matter what is not going to destroy WotC.

That isn't the point.  The point is, if this is the kind of customer relations they're going towards, whether they succeed or fail, they're still not getting my damn money, anymore than any of the three companies I mentioned do.

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah...Folks think employee blogs are the shit, and they can be - until something like this happens. Personally, I'd only allow an official company blog, one overseen by the PR department.

Seanchai

I'm inclined to agree with this. Or at least blogs of folk who 'get' marketing, maybe -- like Dancey.

WotC's new products may be fantastic... but their PR of late is really questionable.  Not to mention the *very* poor decisions around Dragon, Dungeon and "Gleemax".

Quote from: SpikeOr are allayouse spoiled manchildren used to getting your own way alla time that when someone says 'hey bucko, the world don't spin on your dime' you gotta take it as harshing on your high?

Just for future reference, Spike, please note that when I don't like something, I might express that opinion.  Just like when I like something, I might say so.  If expressing an opinion makes one a spoiled manchild, then so be it.  But as far as I can tell, I don't get my way all the time.

I don't like Mr. Noonan's attitude.  He's speaking of inevitability.  Is this the same inevitability that was at work when we were all told that all major WotC announcements would be made at DDX?  His choice of imagery indicates that we are the poor groundlings and his work passes loftily over us, where it may strike us with lightning or provide life-giving rain.  That smacks me of arrogance.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the way Wizard's has been doling out info in seemingly tightly controlled doses leads me to think they are expecting (hoping?) us to parse every little thing they let slip.

Does this turn of events effect my feelings about 4e or Wizards?  Not really.  But it's my first real contact with this Noonan chap and I can't say I'm impressed.

I think Pundit hit the nail on the head when he called attention to the stark contrast to the 3e launch. Now, on the one hand, I think some of the problems with this launch are inevitable. Time between editions hasn't been as long (and if you count 3.5, not nearly as long), and there was no 'end of an era' moment like there was with TSR. As a result, to some extent, this edition needs to be sold a little more, at least to the slice of gamerdom on the internet.

And this certainly isn't the way to do it. I'm thinking back to 3e's release, and I think the equivalent statement was made by...Monte Cook, maybe? It was along the lines of "We know you really like your D&D, but we think ours is pretty neat, and we hope you give it a try." (If anyone remembers/has a link to the actual quote, it'd be helpful to see it.)

Because yeah, a new edition is coming.

No, there's no need to be a dick about it.

Again, part of marketing is: Don't say shit that might piss people off. Even if it is misinterpreted, its the WRITER'S fault, not the reader, when it comes to marketing. Is that right? I'm tempted to say "No, of course not" - but yes, its right. I'll never buy Poison'd because of the AP brouhaha. Is it a good game? Sure could be! Are the mechanics cool? Possibly. Will I buy it? No. Is that "right"? To me it is.

There IS such a thing as bad publicity, and unless Wizards has a magic ink in all my 3.0 and 3.5 books that makes them disolve into piles of goo when 4e hits the streets, I do not HAVE to buy their product. Anything they or their representatives say that pisses me off is a) possibly going to piss OTHERS off, 'cause I'm not exactly a fading flower, and b) cost them money.

Business don't like losing potential customers. Easy enough.

It's occured to me, that while the majority of D&D players may not be online at the moment...Wizards certainly wants them to be, with the digital initative and all. Given the tendency of cyberstuffs to, you know, stick around, this sort of thing could always come up later.

Now, Noonan's post is still pretty mild as that sort of thing goes, but it's a pretty bad precedent to set.

Quote from: LeSquideIt's occured to me, that while the majority of D&D players may not be online at the moment...Wizards certainly wants them to be, with the digital initative and all. Given the tendency of cyberstuffs to, you know, stick around, this sort of thing could always come up later.

Now, Noonan's post is still pretty mild as that sort of thing goes, but it's a pretty bad precedent to set.

Oh man, can you imagine if this is the kind of attitude they take towards software support of this new DI thing?  That'd be lovely.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, what's condescending is the attitude of "we don't care what the fuck you like or don't like about 4e, we're gonna do whatever the fuck we want, and there's nothing you ignorant peons can do about it."

So they're supposed to listen to the loudest, crankiest online posters and steer the game hither and yon to head off complaints? If they're six months into development (or whatever it is), then the time for market consultation is over. They probably had their own way of gathering information, and now it's finished. It would be foolish of WotC to be swayed by the hysterics of internet discussion boards, especially when the loudest people are almost certainly going to be the ones who hate the idea of 4E in the first place. I mean, should WotC start a thread on Dragonsfoot to see what those guys want to see in 4E?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut to baldly state you will not be affected by what anyone has to say... I've seen that attitude in game designers before. And the end results are seldom pretty.

Faith_in_4e--;

Yeah, that's my take on it, too.

Ryan Dancey was involved in a fairly extensive discussion of the design goals of 3e on Pyramid, which is where that message about the survey and the 4 types of gamers comes from.  Beyond trying to appeal to all of those 4 styles of play, another large goal was to not take things away from gamers.  

According to Dancey (before he lost his mind to the story game cult), one of the reasons why people didn't make the jump from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition was that 2nd Edition changed too many things that people were used to and, in particular, took things away that they liked.  That's why a lot of things that had disappeared in the 2nd Edition, from Demons and Devils to Assassins came back in the 3rd Edition.  If they are cutting things back out again and changing them, I'm concerned that they are repeating one of the same mistakes that they made in 2nd Edition, especially when they are making such a big point about how difficult it's going to be to translate characters between editions.

Quote from: J ArcaneThat isn't the point.  The point is, if this is the kind of customer relations they're going towards, whether they succeed or fail, they're still not getting my damn money, anymore than any of the three companies I mentioned do.

That is your choice. Personally, I'm going to buy the game if it feels improved to me and I'm going to enjoy it.

But hey, that's just me.

Quote from: HaffrungThey probably had their own way of gathering information, and now it's finished.

I would be quite curious to know what that way was.  I doubt it was all that sophisticated.