So over on ENWorld, I find this lovely little repost from David Noonan's blog:

QuoteWhy 4th Edition Is Like Clouds In The Sky: If you're really excited about 4th edition, it comes out next May. If you're still sitting on the fence, it comes out next May. And if you hate it with fire of a thousand suns, well, it comes out next May.

I'm flattered that some people are going to reinterpret their 3rd edition games for 4th edition, and I'm disappointed that other people are going to stick with 3.5 no matter what. You've got months and months to make what is a pretty important purchasing decision--at least it's important in terms of your hobby game of choice.

(As a side note, I'd sound completely ridiculous if I said something like, "You shouldn't use all those 3.5 books I worked really hard to write." They're good books. Seriously. We just learned a lot while writing them and playing with them, that's all.)

So you've got time. We're going to reveal more and more of the game as time goes on, both here on the wizards site, in the preview books, and at D&D Experience (Feb. 28 to March 3 in DC). But all those individual "reveals" are clouds in the sky. You can admire the clouds' beauty or shake your fists at them, but they're just going to keep moving across the sky anyway.

There's nothing wrong with cloud-watching. If you're a farmer, you need to watch the clouds at least a little. (Maybe DMs are like farmers, but that might be straining the metaphor.) But farmers know that no amount of cloudwatching will bring the rain. (And don't mention cloud-seeding; it messes up the metaphor.)

You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. Given the circumstance you're in as a D&D player right now, those responses are all valid. But none of them move the clouds.

Or as Celebrim over at ENWorld so wonderfully put this piece of patronizing shit:  "Ahh, you mere customers. Shaking your puny little hands at the clouds. You amuse me with your concern for our little storms and your shamanistic dancing, but such matters are truly above you little ones and we aren't going to pay the slightest attention. So deal with it."

I'm officially done with these assholes now.  They've made a grognard out of me, I'm sticking with 3e.  Got that forum up yet James?

While I find it hard to see a charitable reading in the quote your provided, I think it would be fair to point out that Mr. Noonan is one man in a large organization.  So he may be a dillweed, but I'm not sure that reflects on the whole of Wizards.

Hard to imagine why anyone would come out with something so likely to alienate his customers. Really odd.

It looks like a semi-poetic statement of common sense to me.

Agreed.


And I think they're just working the mob a bit- and doing a splendid job of it too. Not that, as mobs go, this one is particularly hard to work.

Stupid and patronizing? Yes. But it's just some designer dude's blog, it's not the company line in mile-high letters on their homepage.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a harsher response to all the pissing and moaning.

There gets to a point though where statements like the above make me just go 'meh' and give up.

Such as:

QuoteBut all those individual "reveals" are clouds in the sky. You can admire the clouds' beauty or shake your fists at them, but they're just going to keep moving across the sky anyway.

Okay, I COULD get angry, I COULD admire the clouds... Or after three or four clouds have passed and they're all the shape of George Bush then I might just go inside and ignore the weather for the time being. Or, in other words, if they keep dribbling out snippets I don't like I may as well give up now and not buy the new edition.

Quote from: James McMurrayIt looks like a semi-poetic statement of common sense to me.

Seems it to me too. Not to say it isn't coming off as solid jerkery, but all that means is he found an interesting way to say, "4th ed is coming no matter what so either give it a chance or move on".

One more thing

QuoteI'm surprised there hasn't been a harsher response to all the pissing and moaning.

So true Ghost Rat. So true.

An odd thing to post publicly. I don't think he realizes how completely condescending he sounds. It's not easy to maintain proper tone on the internet, and more and more people seem to fail their e-diplomacy rolls every day.

I have not affected David Noonan. But David Noonan has affected me.

I understand that one has to shut out the asshattery out there.

But to baldly state you will not be affected by what anyone has to say... I've seen that attitude in game designers before. And the end results are seldom pretty.

Faith_in_4e--;

Sure J - well, at least, you could go there, register, and tell me how I'm doing.  It's up and running, I'm just playing with the design to get it how I want it - modifying the skin as it were.

The first skin is meant to look like 3rd Edition books.

The next skin I'll work on will look like...maybe d20 Modern or something.

That way, no matter d20 you are playing, you can have th forum look like the one you like.

So if you're ok with the dust of my minor renovations - it's //www.d20haven.com - that's the relatively blank homepage but has a menu bar with a link to the forums (or you can just go directly to //www.d20haven.com/forums)

thanks for asking J!

Jesus, these guys are doing an utterly fucked up job of marketing and relations.

RPGPundit

PS: I usually take it as a VERY bad sign when any new product is marketed with a lot of veiled or open contempt for the existing fans. It usually means that the people involved in the creative process are either people who really don't know what made the original product great, or people who are feeling VERY defensive about their product, because deep down they're very uncertain about where they're going with it.

PPS: and the irony being that its the very same company that did such an awesome job of psyching everyone up for 3rd edition. You can really tell that they're missing the PR skills of people like Atkinson and Dancey.

Oh...and yeah...this is just one of those little things that gives me a pause with respect to 4th Edition. As I always say, I'll take a look at the rules when they come out and decide then.

But this attitude does not put me in the most charitable mood to view those rules.  And I would think, given the kind of split reaction I've seen, they'd be a bit more careful about doing just that - trying to recapture the people that are not in a charitable mood.

Diplomacy Check: Failed.

Hmm.

I...

Hmm....

Well...

Hmmmmmm....

Yeah. Okay. Dude, I know you're going to make the game anyway? And I know you don't have to listen to anyone's issues/complaints/suggestions?

But that's just really, REALLY bad Customer relations. A case of better to keep your mouth shut etc. etc.

My 3e dungeon is moving along nicely, thanks. Everyone's having a great time. All my books (and I have a lot) and computer aids (and I have alot) are still quite readable and functioning nicely. I think that it behooves you to give ME a reason to care enough about your 4e to consider moving up to it, instead of giving me a reason to cock my head to the side and go "Really? REALLY?" like Stan in a good South Park episode.

After all, my money is like a cloud in the sky, drifting by overhead without a thought in the world about what you think about it. You can shake your fists, beg, plead, cajole, etc. etc. - but the only thing that'll make it rain down on your head, chief, is a good product and not pissing off potential customers.

Just, you know, sayin'.

So drop the attitude and quit wasting time on smug little blog entries about how Above It All you are and write the damn books.

Well, he also says this:

QuoteThe weird thing is that playing D&D is something that might move the clouds. In fact, it's the thing that got the clouds moving in the first place. In other words, play your D&D game with a critical eye--what's working and what isn't? We've seen a lot more of this already in message board traffic since the 4e announcement; an impending new edition makes everyone think a little more deeply about the game they're already playing.

In a way, you've been playtesting 4e all along by playing 3e and sharing your experiences with us and with others. The more you tell us about your game, the more we understand what's going on. And the game is moving along, but it ain't done yet. We can--and will--make it better before May.

I'm not really trying to defend the man, and his further statements are still not all that great, but overall I don't think they are really that bad.

I totally understand where your coming from but I've realized we can't all get along all the time, and even an asshat can produce something worthy.