Quote from: Doctor Jest;422463I can say for a fact that many, many PC gamers do not consider themselves to be in the same hobby as TTRPGers. Ever see the Geek Heirarchy chart? That group X considers itself less geeky than Group Y? It's totally true of PC gamers. They consider themselves, by and large, less geeky than TTRPGers. They make fun of roleplaying quite openly. Their interest comes in the challenge of the game play; the subject matter, story, etc are all just window dressing. They're not in the same hobby as TTRPGs.

a) Self-identified "hardcore PC gamers" are generally fuckwards.  Anecdotal evidence from primarily being a so-called "PC gamer" myself.

b) No one really gives a fuck about the division between console, PC, and tabletop anymore.  The largest consumer gaming conventions in the US include all three, and tabletop is enthusiastically received by new players from all accounts -- the demos are usually packed.

Quote from: Peregrin;422514a) Self-identified "hardcore PC gamers" are generally fuckwards.  Anecdotal evidence from primarily being a so-called "PC gamer" myself.

True, but I fail to see the relevence. Excepting, perhaps, as even more evidence we shouldn't be concerned about trying to attract those people to Table Top.

Quoteb) No one really gives a fuck about the division between console, PC, and tabletop anymore.  The largest consumer gaming conventions in the US include all three, and tabletop is enthusiastically received by new players from all accounts -- the demos are usually packed.

I guess that explains why I can go to my local Gamestop and buy D&D. Oh wait...
Or maybe I could got to my Local Hobby Game Store and buy World of Warcraft. Oh wait...
And I guess that's why G4 has regular coverage of the latest Tabletop games and does annual coverage of GenCON like that of e3. Oh wait...

NONE OF THAT IS TRUE.

Huh. It's almost like they're completely different hobbies.

Are you referring to GenCON, which has taken in e3 castoffs as a means to bring in more people? Because if you do mean GenCON, then it's unsurprising that a primarily table-top focused convention has a high table-top attendence rate. The addition of video games to GenCON was a smart move on Adkinson's part to expand the appeal of GenCON beyond tabletop gamers (and cater to those of us who enjoy both), but it by no means indicates that we're all in the same hobby or community. Because we're not.

And e3 is still pretty much just a video game convention, isn't it? And doesn't that qualify as one of the largest consumer gaming conventions in the US? I mean, isn't it still larger than GenCON even with taking two years off to be elitist and snobby?

Quote from: Cranewings;422511You know, the college I go to is filled to the fucking brim with nerds. The game night here has some 50 people show up. I've been to game cons at another local college, and the majority of the people I personally game with go to another one all together. There are tons of young people gaming here, easily as many as in the 90's. I don't think the hobby is going anywhere, at least not in my city.

Generally when people say "The hobby is dying!" they mean "I can't find a game group. Since the problem can't possibly be me, it must be that there's no one playing!"

Too much hair-splitting. Not enough forehead fucking.

Quote from: Benoist;422538Too much hair-splitting. Not enough forehead fucking.

Commissioner, turn on the Aos-signal!

Quote from: Doctor Jest;422534And e3 is still pretty much just a video game convention, isn't it? And doesn't that qualify as one of the largest consumer gaming conventions in the US? I mean, isn't it still larger than GenCON even with taking two years off to be elitist and snobby?

What?  No. The largest gaming conventions in the US is Penny-Arcade Xpo, which happens twice a year, once on each cost.  They're 60+ thousand in attendance at each venue and rapidly growing (double the size of GenCon, twice a year).  While video-games are a large draw (since the comic mainly focuses on console and PC games), recently the creators of the comic have begun talking a lot about tabletop gaming, and PAX has become a general-purpose gaming convention.  If it is a game, it is there, and people play it.

I'm not referring to retail outlets, what I'm referring to is the cultural inclusion of all mediums of gaming in popular geek culture.  For most people, there is no longer "console gamer", "PC gamer", "tabletop gamer", there are just "gamers."

Quote from: danbuter;422509IMO, once you have more than 4 or 5 players, you end up with people sitting around doing nothing. Or worse, messing with their iPhones and not paying attention.

I think it is all what you are used to and therefore comfortable with. I've seldom had that problem and my preferred group size is 7 to 10 players.

The only times I've had this problem regularly are when I let combat rules -- and other "tactical" things that happen one player at a time around the table -- get so complex that they take a lot of real time.  (For example, entire combats happen in my campaigns in the time I've seen some groups at the game store set up the battlemat for a combat.) As long as things keep moving right along, my players generally stay interested and engaged.

Quote from: RandallS;422566I think it is all what you are used to and therefore comfortable with. I've seldom had that problem and my preferred group size is 7 to 10 players.

The only times I've had this problem regularly are when I let combat rules -- and other "tactical" things that happen one player at a time around the table -- get so complex that they take a lot of real time.  (For example, entire combats happen in my campaigns in the time I've seen some groups at the game store set up the battlemat for a combat.) As long as things keep moving right along, my players generally stay interested and engaged.

You obviously don't play mid - level pathfinder.

Quote from: Cranewings;422568You obviously don't play mid - level pathfinder.

You are right. I don't.

PF (like 3.x and 4e) is far too "rules/detail/tactics heavy" for my campaigns and players.  Generally, if "rules mastery" is a part of the game it isn't something I will run except under great duress. Most of the players who enjoy my campaigns simply aren't that into learning rules (let alone mastering them). They generally don't want to think much about rules during the game, they prefer them to fade into the background.

Quote from: RandallS;422581Generally, if "rules mastery" is a part of the game it isn't something I will run except under great duress. Most of the players who enjoy my campaigns simply aren't that into learning rules (let alone mastering them). They generally don't want to think much about rules during the game, they prefer them to fade into the background.

FYI, I borrowed this quote over here.

Quote from: Cole;422542Commissioner, turn on the Aos-signal!

Wait! Think of the Children!

Quote from: Aos;422606Wait! Think of the Children!

Ah, Fuck 'em.

Right in their stupid foreheads.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;422495Honestly I mostly speak contempt of people like you who have your product of choice shoved so far up your goddamned ass its coming out your ears.  

You are a raging douchebag or a brilliant troll.  Either way I have a low tolerance for dickheads.  

You must live a very unhappy life; all I've ever seen from you is going back and forth alternating between misery, contempt and resentment. I mean.. is that fun? are you happy?

Quote from: RandallS;422581You are right. I don't.

PF (like 3.x and 4e) is far too "rules/detail/tactics heavy" for my campaigns and players.  Generally, if "rules mastery" is a part of the game it isn't something I will run except under great duress. Most of the players who enjoy my campaigns simply aren't that into learning rules (let alone mastering them). They generally don't want to think much about rules during the game, they prefer them to fade into the background.

I think my players, most of them anyway, would be happier with a more rules lite system. I keep thinking about going back to Palladium for them.

I'll probably put away pathfinder for a while once I can work this game to a satisfying end.