Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;422346But if Randall is having a blast running a game with 9 players that is cool and ok, right?

I think qualifying his statement with 'in my opinion at least' covered that.

To move things forward for me I like 4-6 plus GM, although at college I ended up running Rules Cyclopedia with 10 players: 5 guys who knew what they were doing and 5 girls who'd never played before. As two of the guys were very keen on one of the girls and they played opposing clerics (LG and LE) with their friends both playing their henchmen we had a lot of party infighting and ended up with 3 goblins in Caldwell's Castle leaving half the party unconscious. Good times though. I couldn't put the time and energy I needed to cope with a large group any more, though if it works for Randall then more power to him.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;422346But if Randall is having a blast running a game with 9 players that is cool and ok, right?

No! Jackboots! I call for jackboots!

Seanchai

Quote from: Joshua Ford;422353I think qualifying his statement with 'in my opinion at least' covered that.

Yeah, sorry if it came out prissy.
Me, I'd wish I had a pool of 9, or even 6 good and regular players to draw from. Right now I only have 4 regular players, so if one is out, the game kinda folds.

Quote from: Cole;422326Sorry for the digression, but, out of curiosity - how do you decide on what's a "full" group before you decline new players?

It changes.

My Igbar group is a pain, because many of them are socially acquainted, and want to play together.  

It is also based on the system.  We run a skill-based, social heavy game.  SO face time is needed.  I find running an IRC chatroom at the sametime with some preloaded images/notes speeds stuff along and gets rid of the need to write heavy-handed notes.  But it certainly makes a big group hard.  So iif I feel as if people are restless, or not involved, or the wine runs too low to quickly, the group has gotten too unwieldy.  I remember running a room full in high school with 2 assistant GMs.  I know what out-of-control feels like.

Miston is 5 players and me.  Plays 1/month. (15 year campaign)
Igbar is 7.5 players, 2 of which regularly bring spouses.  Plays every 3 weeks. (8 year campaign, though 12 the group is 2-3 years..some interesting turnover)
Online IRC just added another, so I thin we are up to 6, but we always have 1-2 missing.
My wife will kill me if I open a third live group...but If I do, I can open with 5 players waiting in line for Igbar.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;422359Yeah, sorry if it came out prissy.
Me, I'd wish I had a pool of 9, or even 6 good and regular players to draw from. Right now I only have 4 regular players, so if one is out, the game kinda folds.

To be honest, given how this thread started, it's worth checking these things

What do you play when one regular is out?

Two points

1. Computer games and MMOs are not the same hobby as table top RPGs. They're separate hobbies that have some overlap in player base. I speak as a member of both hobbies. They're radically different experiences and I do them for different reasons. I can say without a doubt that the majority of PC gamers are absolutely not role-players and have no interest in roleplaying. So speaking as if RPGs were somehow in competition on a level playing field with computer games is frankly silly. Looking at the pool of PC gamers as people tabletop "lost" is fallacious.

2. Rumors of the table top hobby's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Again. I have never had trouble filling my table. When I moved in April, I needed to get a new group. I not only found all the people I could handle in less than two weeks, there were more people interested than I could accommodate. It's the same with other local groups: tables fill quickly. Maybe it's a local thing, but I'd be surprised if it were singular or unique. I don't foresee being in danger of running out of people to game with in the foreseeable future.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;422400Two points

1. Computer games and MMOs are not the same hobby as table top RPGs. They're separate hobbies that have some overlap in player base. I speak as a member of both hobbies. They're radically different experiences and I do them for different reasons. I can say without a doubt that the majority of PC gamers are absolutely not role-players and have no interest in roleplaying. So speaking as if RPGs were somehow in competition on a level playing field with computer games is frankly silly. Looking at the pool of PC gamers as people tabletop "lost" is fallacious.

2. Rumors of the table top hobby's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Again. I have never had trouble filling my table. When I moved in April, I needed to get a new group. I not only found all the people I could handle in less than two weeks, there were more people interested than I could accommodate. It's the same with other local groups: tables fill quickly. Maybe it's a local thing, but I'd be surprised if it were singular or unique. I don't foresee being in danger of running out of people to game with in the foreseeable future.

Both fine opinions
Here are mine-

One can not argue that CRPGs would exist without D&D and Gygax. The concept comes from D&D. To people who play neither CRPG or table top games they are the same hobby. One can argue that the experience is totally different but you are playing a character in a made up world and, usually, killing stuff. And notice how First Person Shooters and CRPGs are different despite the obvious parallels. I guess its akin to motor cars. gygax invented the first car (well sure he pinched a few other peoples ideas and badged them as his ) cars went on to become Porches and Mercades and the like then D&D is like the London to Brighton Rally ....

In the UK I get a really strong impression that number are down and that you have an aging gamer population. GW boomed and are in decline and their focus has been on minis since the merger with Citadel (oh how I miss those early years, Rogue trooper, Chainsaw Warrior, Fury of Dracula ) in any case.
Cubical are doing better I guess and Wiggy and his guys.

Quote from: jibbajibba;422288I don't knwo what your non-gamer mates are like but most of mine would prefer to play golf, get a beer, go for a meal etc than play an RPG. And if you mix in the fact that social events are increasingly tied to kids and partners then ....

It's hard enough getting them to play pictionary for Christ sakes

The pictionary comment reminds me of my family gatherings - it took sheer bulldozing to get them to play Scattegories last time I visited.  The majority of our family gatherings consists of awkward conversations and watching my brother's toddler play with my other brother's older daughter.

The usual "games" played at these gatherings are "how long can I go before looking at the clock again?", "how can I be enough of a wallflower to avoid inane smalltalk that consists of questions I've been answering since 1996?", and my personal favorite - "how many snarky comments can we make about how much we hate family gatherings without getting caught?".

Granted, every once in a while new games get added - "who can shout the loudest?", "who will almost get the cops called for a domestic disturbance?", etc.  But I'm rambling on.

Quote from: Cole;422326Sorry for the digression, but, out of curiosity - how do you decide on what's a "full" group before you decline new players?

I usually set a hard cap of players, myself (8 being the absolute max).  My latest was to have a number of permanent slots for the people that always showed up and a couple of slots that changed players session to session for the people that could only make it once in a while.  Currently, I'm finally down to 6 players and I intend to try and keep it there - it's amazing how much smoother the game runs with less people.

Quote from: jgants;422410I usually set a hard cap of players, myself (8 being the absolute max).  My latest was to have a number of permanent slots for the people that always showed up and a couple of slots that changed players session to session for the people that could only make it once in a while.  Currently, I'm finally down to 6 players and I intend to try and keep it there - it's amazing how much smoother the game runs with less people.

I used to run games for 14 back at school, it would have been easy had they all stayed in one party . And I have run a play by mail (as it was then) Amber game for 25 (though we had 2 GMs each of which also ran a PC in the other GM's part of the game). But I would agree with the generic 4-6 being optimal.

Quote from: Joshua Ford;422376To be honest, given how this thread started, it's worth checking these things

What do you play when one regular is out?

Hey, this is the rpgsite - shoot first, think later... if at all

Mostly we just cancel when a player's not avaliable, but we can also fall back on our previous game. Over the Edge is easy to manage with an incomplete team, it's worse missing a member in the long running WFRP campaign.

Quote from: jibbajibba;422409Both fine opinions
Here are mine-

QuoteOne can not argue that CRPGs would exist without D&D and Gygax.
The concept comes from D&D.

CRPGs and Tabletop RPGs developed concurrently. While D&D obviously had an impact on many titles, the first CRPG, Pedit5, was released in 1974, the same year D&D was released. They may have been siblings at one point, but they were separated at birth.

QuoteTo people who play neither CRPG or table top games they are the same hobby.

Why is it relevent what people outside the hobbies might think? Someone might think that stamp collecting and coin collecting are the same hobby, but that doesn't make them right. It just makes them ignorant.

Further, I don't think it's even true that people outside the hobbies see them as the same.

I can say for a fact that many, many PC gamers do not consider themselves to be in the same hobby as TTRPGers. Ever see the Geek Heirarchy chart? That group X considers itself less geeky than Group Y? It's totally true of PC gamers. They consider themselves, by and large, less geeky than TTRPGers. They make fun of roleplaying quite openly. Their interest comes in the challenge of the game play; the subject matter, story, etc are all just window dressing. They're not in the same hobby as TTRPGs.

Again, I am in both hobbies. I love them both for what they are, but I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the millions of CRPGers out there are not TTRPGers that were lured away by WoW or Diablo or whatever. They would never have been in the TTRPG hobby to begin with, because it's not what they're interested in.

QuoteAnd notice how First Person Shooters and CRPGs are different despite the obvious parallels.

Notice how third person shooters and CRPGs really aren't that different.
And where FPS games are concerned, what about Heretic/Heretic 2?

QuoteI guess its akin to motor cars. gygax invented the first car (well sure he pinched a few other peoples ideas and badged them as his ) cars went on to become Porches and Mercades and the like then D&D is like the London to Brighton Rally ....

It's more akin to cars with flames painted on them and airplanes with flames painted on them and saying because they both are dressed up in the same costume that flying planes is the same thing as racing cars. Hey, they look sorta alike, because they both have flames, and they're both a form of transportation, so obviously they're the same activity!

Because that's the deal: if someone sees flames painted on Gary's car, and go and paint flames on their airplane, they're not trying to turn an airplane into a car or make a car fly. The choice is an aesthetic one. The similarity between CRPGs and TTRPGs is likewise an aesthetic one.

QuoteIn the UK I get a really strong impression that number are down and that you have an aging gamer population. GW boomed and are in decline and their focus has been on minis since the merger with Citadel (oh how I miss those early years, Rogue trooper, Chainsaw Warrior, Fury of Dracula ) in any case.
Cubical are doing better I guess and Wiggy and his guys.

You're talking about the RPG INDUSTRY, not the RPG HOBBY. These are two different things. The industry expanded a great deal in the 1990s through the early 2000s and I think it expanded too much, and now a natural contraction is happening. There is more variety of RPG product available right now, however, than any other point in history. Arguably, maybe there's too much product, which is why the industry suffers.

Also, we're in the midst of the worst economic downturn in 70 years, which I am sure has a great deal to do with it.

But none of that speaks to how the HOBBY is doing. Plenty of people are still playing with the same books they've owned for years or even decades. With the economy, many people (myself included) are buying less product than we were before, but we're playing as much if not more than ever. Game COMPANIES might falter, but we hobbists don't need to keep spending money to keep our hobby alive. RPGs will continue on, even if only as a cottage industry. There's nothing wrong with that, they started as a cottage industry, after all.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;422244Two (maybe three) possibilities:

1. The obvious. Don't take offense, but..maybe it's you. You're really aggressive and I recall very clearly two years ago the utter contempt you were spewing. If I remember that, maybe other people do too, and maybe that's something to think about.

Honestly I mostly speak contempt of people like you who have your product of choice shoved so far up your goddamned ass its coming out your ears.  

You are a raging douchebag or a brilliant troll.  Either way I have a low tolerance for dickheads.  

But its not me as none of my players wanted posters or anything are the slightest bit negative.  Nobody responds to them in the FIRST PLACE.  And I see it with other player's wanted postings as well.  And have heard the odd person lament not being able to find a game, usually followed with them talking about how they just don't have time, or doing the nostalgiatard version of what you do with 4e and how everything but their one little love is the suck.

Quote2. Non-obvious: But remember new people don't come in with years of preconceptions and very rigid dislikes. The insidious poison of the forge

NOBODY FUCKING GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE FORGE OUTSIDE OF THE INTERNET.

Why people keep bringing up that stupid place nobody cares or knows about is beyond me.

Shit.  MOST GAMERS DONT EVEN KNOW ABOUT RPG.NET FOR CHRISSAKES.

Thank you.

IMO, once you have more than 4 or 5 players, you end up with people sitting around doing nothing. Or worse, messing with their iPhones and not paying attention.

Quote from: danbuter;422509IMO, once you have more than 4 or 5 players, you end up with people sitting around doing nothing. Or worse, messing with their iPhones and not paying attention.

When these players' characters are unconscious or recuperating, they end up playing video games or watching television for the whole time.

You know, the college I go to is filled to the fucking brim with nerds. The game night here has some 50 people show up. I've been to game cons at another local college, and the majority of the people I personally game with go to another one all together. There are tons of young people gaming here, easily as many as in the 90's. I don't think the hobby is going anywhere, at least not in my city.