Quote from: thedungeondelver;422055Hell is other gamers.

Don't go paraphrasing Sartre like that. It's gonna hurt your brain. Trust me.

Quote from: Benoist;422109Really. I'm not seeing what the big deal is.

Different people have different abilities, flaws, and circumstances.  That you don't anecdotally have a problem doesn't mean that other people don't have a real problem.  In the past few days, I've seen several people talk about thinking about quitting the hobby, not because they don't enjoy it but because they can't find a group that they enjoy.  

And please note that I'm not complaining about my own problems.  My group played with homebrew systems for years so I don't need an industry to support my group.  And while I haven't played since the birth of my second daughter about 3 years ago, I should be rejoining the group that I left early next year, which is made up of good friends that I've mostly known since college in the 1980s.  One of the GMs in my group actively recruits new players from his co-workers (he was running a game for three generations of a co-worker's family) and introduced me to some other local players through a co-worker, which is how I played in a fantastic D&D campaign game with a great group run by one of the authors of Castle Whiterock.  

So I don't personally have these problems but I benefit from the hobby being healthy from published material and message boards and so on and see from the comments on message boards that plenty of people do have these problems.  If you ask or look, it's not that hard to find out that plenty of people reading these message boards are playing and running nothing and plenty of people are leaving the hobby because they can't find a stable group they'd want to play with.

Quote from: John Morrow;422134Different people have different abilities, flaws, and circumstances.  That you don't anecdotally have a problem doesn't mean that other people don't have a real problem.

Sure. Absolutely. It's just that I'm not seeing what is so darn difficult for people to just propose to play a role playing game with friends just like you'd propose an evening playing some other game, or watching movies together, or whatnot.

It's like role playing games have to be that sort of weird cult-thing that only dedicated people do. Well, no?? Doesn't have to be that way at all. Some people I know are playing in campaigns, only once every month or two, and that's perfectly fine that way.

I don't know why that is that so many gamers seem to have trouble breaking the ice with non-gamers or worse, wouldn't even *THINK* of TRYING, at least.

It's puzzling, don't you think?

Most of my friends have played RPGs in the Wayback, usually High School (long before I knew them) but are really caught up in being 'adults' these days... meaning they mostly want to spend their free time getting drunk and fucking each other... or blathering on about politics and culture (while on the way to one of the other two activities).
That means that if I want to game I have to meet new people, so the new people might as well be gamers... might as well be a pre-formed RPG group.

Quote from: Benoist;422110Don't go paraphrasing Sartre like that. It's gonna hurt your brain. Trust me.

It's "No Exit: The Role Playing Game!"

Quote from: thedungeondelver;422162It's "No Exit: The Role Playing Game!"

Clearly this requires a robust social conflict mechanic in which players present one of their own personal flaws as an ante, and raise stakes by throwing written notations of other flaws into a dingy spittoon. (the game box will suffice as a substitute). Failure to meet the stakes, or failure in a dice contest will result a bitter litany of flaws to be read out as part of a pre-determined, "mad libs" style tirade. Losers, however, can earn desperation and spite dice. When all dice have accrued to one player, he reads a final tirade which explains that the whole excercise has been a bitter and futile one.

There's also plenty of forehead fuckin', but this is not governed by any mechanic as there you don't even get a saving throw.

Quote from: RandallS;421824In my experience the overlap is very one-sided.

Probably you are right, but the overlap exists nonetheless, and for me CRPGS are a mine of new tabletop gamers.

Quote from: skofflox;421879This could be so...

But the entertainment is priceless...

Oh, absolutely. The Pundit persona is one of the most brilliant clowns you can find on the web. See otherwise reasonable people go absolutely bonkers at the first mention of the other side in their war is priceless. See indie gamers asking other indie gamers how can you do that "traditional stuff" thing like they have never seen a trad RPG in 20 years of gaming is too much.

And it has no signs of wearing down, so the entertainment is assured.

Quote from: Koltar;422032You wouldn't know - you're not an RPG-er.
 Says so right in your user subtitle.

That is a lot of butthurt, Ed, but you have to admit that the advanced combat in GURPS is as wargamey as 4e. Come on, you know it.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;422042Its all been an utter failure.  Nobody on player finders, nobody on forums, nobody through Player's Wanted posters, nobody through store Yahoo groups or Facebook pages.

Either people only want to play with a select group (which means as soon as the inevitabilities of real life take over as they did with my old group its OVER), or they only want to play one certain game in one certain style on one certain day and everyone else might as well not even EXIST.

I'm sorry you are going through this, but for me the best answer has always been recruiting new players from my non-gamer friends. Works like a charm, every time. No powergaming, no One True Waysm, no edition warsm no bullshit. That I leave for the Internet

Quote from: John Morrow;422134Different people have different abilities, flaws, and circumstances.  That you don't anecdotally have a problem doesn't mean that other people don't have a real problem.

True, and I acknowledge that problems, but I don't think that the industry should solve them.

Quote from: Werekoala;421705((Pulls up a chair, sets PB on his knee))

Ya see, son, back in the 1980's, there was this place called East Germany... full of bad Commie-types, and part of a band of nations called the Warsaw Pact. They were client states of the old Soviet Union, and tended to band together against the West in all matters.

Every four years or so, there's a world-wide athletics competition called the Olympics. During the Cold War (circa 1948-1991-ish) it was the Soviets and their Clients States vs. America and her Client States, trying to out-do each other by winning medals in these competitions.

Now, many of the events were subjectively scored by Judges, typically representing various nations, who would give a 0-10 point-based score, depending on technical merit, presentation, etc. Not being objectively scored, there were many times when you would see wildly off-kilter scores across the board, and often these differences were broken down along ideological lines. You might get, say, the Japanese judge scoring a gymnastic floor routine at 8.3, while a Yugoslavian judge might give it a 6.4.

Now, in the 1980s, there was a long-running one-liner type joke which was typically was used when people were showing appreciation for another's accomplishment. Typically, it would go something like my original post "I give it a 9.4, but the East German judge only gave it a 7.0" or words to that effect.

So you see, the entire historical concept of East Germany (a phrase that is meaningless to anyone born after 1985 probably) and the socio-political struggles of the East vs. West of the mid- to late-twentieth century, is vital to the execution and understanding of "the joke". I hope that by providing some historical context, you are now able to smirk wryly, or at least not roll your eyes when grandpa is talking. If nothing else, now you can use you superior knowledge of ancient history to impress your hipster friends.

Now get off my lawn. ((shoves PB off the porch))

Uhm, sorry Sir, but i had to do air raid drills while i was at elementary in the eighties. I KNOW about East Germany and its history. ^^
I was just poking at the unfunniness of cracking a joke about something that ended about more than 20 years ago. If you'd at least had made a funny joke about nazis or stuff, but commies? blergh.
That's all.

Quote from: Imperator;422176That is a lot of butthurt, Ed, but you have to admit that the advanced combat in GURPS is as wargamey as 4e. Come on, you know it.

To be fair, though advanced combat is simply one option for those who want it. Basic combat is very fast and smooth and actually works better for some games, especially horror.

You can make any game that includes rules for combat as wargamey as you see fit.

For some types of games I think GURPS is a bit too involved and complex but as an rpg overall I have to give it a high rating. The largest indicator of RP focus is the reward system. Character points (XP) are awarded for roleplaying the character that the player created and defined. Thats it. Killing things and collecting phat lewts are purely optional objectives of play and may not even be a part of some games.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;422196To be fair, though

Dude, Ed's OP is not about being fair I was just yanking a chain. Just kidding, mate.

Quote from: Imperator;422199Dude, Ed's OP is not about being fair I was just yanking a chain. Just kidding, mate.

Oh certainly. The original post was full of batshit crazy.

Quote from: Benoist;422135I don't know why that is that so many gamers seem to have trouble breaking the ice with non-gamers or worse, wouldn't even *THINK* of TRYING, at least.

It's puzzling, don't you think?

Given how many dating sites there are on the web and how much time is spent talking about relationships in magazines, books, and on television, I don't find it puzzling at all. And given ho structured and protected the lives of children have become, I think it will probably only get worse.

Quote from: Phantom Black;422195Uhm, sorry Sir, but i had to do air raid drills while i was at elementary in the eighties. I KNOW about East Germany and its history. ^^
I was just poking at the unfunniness of cracking a joke about something that ended about more than 20 years ago. If you'd at least had made a funny joke about nazis or stuff, but commies? blergh.
That's all.

Yes, but wasn't it an impressive history lesson?

Now go back to the Fulda Gap, you troublemaker!

Quote from: Captain Rufus;422052Ive basically been on a break.

THATS THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

And look at many of the examples I listed.  If you were either a new potential gamer or one who was trying to get a group would you want to put up with any of that shit?

Probably not.  Its a lot faster to slap a disk into your game machine of choice and just kill some Radscorpions or Orcs in 5 minutes rather than try to go through all that work and hope someone will actually want to play and not be a freak or asshole.

Why spend hours reading rules and trying to find someone to fight Napoleon's Wars on a hex map when you can drop 30 bucks and download Commander: Napoleon at War and start playing within minutes and not have to worry about it?

Why paint dozens of Space Marines and drive to a shop in hopes of getting a game when you can grab Dawn of War 1 or 2 off Steam and watch Orks go splat for the Emperor and not have some asshole poo poo your paint job and army list?

Two (maybe three) possibilities:

1. The obvious. Don't take offense, but..maybe it's you. You're really aggressive and I recall very clearly two years ago the utter contempt you were spewing. If I remember that, maybe other people do too, and maybe that's something to think about.

2. Non-obvious: But remember new people don't come in with years of preconceptions and very rigid dislikes. The insidious poison of the forge (which is more ingrained here than anywhere else on the entire internet, ironically) is that everyone has this rigid "playstyle" that must be adhered to at all times, and that players have to care deeply and affiliate themselves with (or more likely here- 'against') the companies that produce the games. That just isn't real. When you have your first conversation that starts with "Well, if it weren't for Wizards pulling this DDI shit" and the newbie says something like "my guy isn't a wizard, though, he's a hexblade" you will understand, I guess. gaming generally isn't a source of hostility and resentment when it's just a game.

3. When you can't find a group, you should found a group. if you have already tried this and it isn't working there might be more options (virtual tabletop is one of them.) Here's one you may not have considered: If you've played Encounters even a single time, congratulations, you have been a member of the RPGA. You could play Living Realms too. You could even write your own adventures-

http://webapp.wizards.com/download/adventures/MYRE11LFR.zip

^^ that's the myRealms LFR template. There's plenty of established Living Realms adventures out there, but MyRealms is where the individual DM creates everything. Create your own adventures and offer to run them, and Living Realms players get XP and gold for playing it. Many LFR players actually seek out original content like this. usually you can run them in the same place people are playing Encounters.

DDXP is coming in January and it's in Ft. Wayne. It's going to be pretty awesome this year- Ashes of Athas is launching.

Quote from: John Morrow;422215Given how many dating sites there are on the web and how much time is spent talking about relationships in magazines, books, and on television, I don't find it puzzling at all. And given ho structured and protected the lives of children have become, I think it will probably only get worse.

Yet people at large still find dates and have relationships all the time.

I wonder if the same thing can be said about gamers.