Quote from: John Morrow;421689And when those communities disappear because all of the people have decided it's easier to play World of Warcraft or want to play a game you can't stand, instead?

Again, I don't see that necessarily happening. It may be so, but the data I have available say something else.

This summer we attended No Man's Land Con, one of the biggest here in Spain. There were many people responsible for running several nation-wide cons, and they all agreed: con attendance and number of FLGS is at an historical record. More people is gaming and attending cons than ever, even the golden 90s.

QuoteRole-playing is a social hobby that requires other people to play and while you may not have a problem finding or making new players and while there will always be some small number of people who keep the hobby going in some form (just as wargaming never entirely died), it's going to make things more difficult for a lot of people if they can't find people to play with and can't buy game material for the sort of games that they want to play.  It's also going to impact people if their group breaks up over it.

But that is not something the industry can fix by producing one kind of games or the other. This is somethign WE must fix, by running games, helping spread the love, and being viral.

I don't expect any publisher to spread the love for RQ. I do it myself, by running the best games I can at every con I attend, and every FLGS that will let me do it.

Oh, and wargaming is coming back with a vengeance here.

QuoteThe reason why people revile the Forge and story-games isn't because some people are selling niche indie games at GenCon but because the language of Forge theory comes to dominate most online discussions of game theory in a bad way and because the ideas in those story games are finding their way into staples of the hobby like D&D 4e and Warhammer 3e, meaning that they are changing the direction of the whole hobby.  That matters for social reasons.

The degree in which Forgisms affected the design of 4e and WHFRP 3 is a matter of angry debate, but I can agree that there is some influence. My point of contention is: either people will like it and sell well, so no harm done, or people will dislike it, and then the will have to re-do it. In the meantime, other people (like Pathfinder) will create a supply for the need, and people will keep playing. It is not such a binary situation. We don't depend on any big publisher doing well. Again, the hobby is independent from the industry: the industry can get fucked in the ass.

QuoteGiven that Koltar works in a game store, I can't fault him for caring about the commercial viability of the hobby.  Other people have legitimate reasons for that concern, too, especially if they rely on the size of the hobby and it's visibility in the public space to find groups to play with.

Problem is not with him being concerned, is with him being uninformed, and wrong. And boring, also.

QuoteAnd you are certain which side is which there?

I'm in the side of people who welcomes variety, who plays once or twice a week and plans to do so for many years, and who keeps introducing to this hobby at least a dozen persons a year. I do my part, which is gaming like a fiend and spreading the love. Internet wars are at best a pastime for me sometimes, food for thought other times, and irrelevant to people's gmes in real space all the time.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;421698Once that happens you have to accept that you are done and no longer part of the hobby. You can choose that other hobby where you obsess on the companies producing the games, where your hobby is bitterly following the industry itself  or just talk about theory (positive or negatively) as if it actually mattered.

But as for gaming? Once the community moves on, you're just done. You're unable to enjoy it, so it's over for you.

Quote from: jibbajibba;421663Because what you seem to have missed is that the hobby spawned MUDs and MUDS combined with developments in PCs and so the Core of the hobby has been Computer RPGs for years. MMOs are the core of the hobby. There are more active MMO players then there are table top players. There are more Chinese kids making a living gold farming than there are midwest Koltars working in games stores. MMOs are mainstream,  tabletop roleplaying is the niche.

I see computer RPGs as a completely separate hobby from tabletop RPGs. The two hobbies really don't have a lot in common that they don't also have in common with books, TV shows, films, etc. Few players of computer RPGs/MUDs/MMOs play tabletop RPGs so it is hard to see them as the same hobby.

Personally, I've never been able to play a computer RPG all the way through. They bore me to tears.  What computer RPGs/MMOs seem to do best are the things that I am least interested in in tabletop RPGs. This is probably why tabletop RPGs that try to duplicate the computer RPG experience in the hope of drawing in more computer RPGers turn me off: they are stressing the parts of tabletop RPGs that least interest me.

Quote from: RandallS;421724I see computer RPGs as a completely separate hobby from tabletop RPGs. The two hobbies really don't have a lot in common that they don't also have in common with books, TV shows, films, etc. Few players of computer RPGs/MUDs/MMOs play tabletop RPGs so it is hard to see them as the same hobby.

Personally, I've never been able to play a computer RPG all the way through. They bore me to tears.  What computer RPGs/MMOs seem to do best are the things that I am least interested in in tabletop RPGs. This is probably why tabletop RPGs that try to duplicate the computer RPG experience in the hope of drawing in more computer RPGers turn me off: they are stressing the parts of tabletop RPGs that least interest me.

point is that CRPGs were spawned out of D&D without Gygax et al there would be no World of Warcraft. Now you might think of them as totally different hobbies but in the eyes of 'mainstream' culture they are part of the same package.
I also suspect that most tabletop gamers have played some CRPGs if not MMOs but I suspect that the opposite is not true. That does not mean they are separate hobbies that just means that tabletop games are the niche.
Using the Radio analysis a bit more D&D has become the top 40 hits of the 80s nostalgia station whilst everyone else is watching MTV and most of the radio fans have tried MTV but just didn't get it where as the MTV fans just look at you and wave their MP3 players at you when you ask if they ever tried radio ....

Quote from: jibbajibba;421728point is that CRPGs were spawned out of D&D without Gygax et al there would be no World of Warcraft. Now you might think of them as totally different hobbies but in the eyes of 'mainstream' culture they are part of the same package.
I also suspect that most tabletop gamers have played some CRPGs if not MMOs but I suspect that the opposite is not true. That does not mean they are separate hobbies that just means that tabletop games are the niche.
Using the Radio analysis a bit more D&D has become the top 40 hits of the 80s nostalgia station whilst everyone else is watching MTV and most of the radio fans have tried MTV but just didn't get it where as the MTV fans just look at you and wave their MP3 players at you when you ask if they ever tried radio ....

Also, there is a lot of overlap between both hobbies. Many tabletop gamers play CRPGs.

Quote from: John Morrow;421689Simply nostalgia?  That's certainly a part of it.  But there is also something real behind the nostalgia and something that really has been lost, even if you think it's better being lost.

Put me in that camp. I do not count greater overall diversity of choice and being able to find what I want for me specifically as a negative. As a positive it far outweighs the loss of fewer, more generalised choices.

QuoteGiven that Koltar works in a game store, I can't fault him for caring about the commercial viability of the hobby.  Other people have legitimate reasons for that concern, too, especially if they rely on the size of the hobby and it's visibility in the public space to find groups to play with.

That sounds like a valid concern, but it is not at all a concern I saw Koltar express. I think you are crediting Koltar's OP (and subsequent OPs) with far more thought and critical analysis than were actually present. Perhaps it is in your nature to try to fill in a vaccuum of rational discourse left by others.


And you are certain which side is which there?[/QUOTE]

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;421690New avatar, anyone? Going begging.

Thanks, thats my new avatar

Quote from: Daedalus;421768Thanks, thats my new avatar

I give you permission to use that only if you use it on EVERY FORUM YOU'RE ON.

It's out there now. You can't stop the signal. Of forehead-fucking.

Quote from: John Morrow;421689And when those communities disappear because all of the people have decided it's easier to play World of Warcraft or want to play a game you can't stand, instead?  Role-playing is a social hobby that requires other people to play and while you may not have a problem finding or making new players and while there will always be some small number of people who keep the hobby going in some form (just as wargaming never entirely died), it's going to make things more difficult for a lot of people if they can't find people to play with and can't buy game material for the sort of games that they want to play.  It's also going to impact people if their group breaks up over it.

The reason why disco became so reviled in the 1970s wasn't that people think music should never change or because they don't think other people should be able to do their own thing or even simply because they thought it was terrible but because it became ubiquitous and drove the alternatives out of the public space.  You couldn't avoid it and even mainstream rock and roll artists tried their hands at disco.

The reason why people revile the Forge and story-games isn't because some people are selling niche indie games at GenCon but because the language of Forge theory comes to dominate most online discussions of game theory in a bad way and because the ideas in those story games are finding their way into staples of the hobby like D&D 4e and Warhammer 3e, meaning that they are changing the direction of the whole hobby.  That matters for social reasons.

A few times, I've offered up this essay as an analogy for role-playing.  It's about the death of Top 40 radio in the context of WABC in New York City, once the #1 radio station, switching over to talk radio.  In the essay, the author writes:



Simply nostalgia?  That's certainly a part of it.  But there is also something real behind the nostalgia and something that really has been lost, even if you think it's better being lost.



Given that Koltar works in a game store, I can't fault him for caring about the commercial viability of the hobby.  Other people have legitimate reasons for that concern, too, especially if they rely on the size of the hobby and it's visibility in the public space to find groups to play with.



And you are certain which side is which there?

I see this trotted out for a variety of reasons and it still makes no sense.

Since when does something have to be mainstream or popular to be enjoyed?
Lets take a look at the early days of "traditional" rpgs. Very few people even knew the damn games existed. Getting players meant convincing people you knew to try out playing to see if they liked it. Did these early players spend all their time worrying about how niche this new hobby of theirs was and that they had better spend assloads of time convincing the mainstream to take up the hobby lest it die? Fuck no, they played games they enjoyed and the world could join in or not.

Nothing has changed. The internet allows you to find more people who like what you do and BS about it but otherwise everything is the same.

To quote the great philosopher Wayne Campbell " Led Zeppelin didn't make music that everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."

The industry?

Be realistic. Don't expect the industry to produce more Led Zeppelin LP's than Bee Gee's mp3's. The industry is a business that has to market to mass audiences if it wants to stay a business.

The bigger question- who the hell cares what the industry does? We can play whatever we want. Considering that people played and the hobby survived before there ever WAS much of an industry (or internet for that matter) I daresay that it would survive even a complete collapse.

The industry is finding out really how niche TTRPG's are. Looking at the way WOTC is floundering about trying to get D&D to produce the same kind of revenue stream as a CCG or MMO is laughable. D&D will either start producing the kind of $$ Hasbro wants it to or it will either change form completely or get shitcanned. Will that affect me or my games directly? Nope.

Finding players? It was done without any support or even an internet once upon a time and it can be done again.

Quote from: ggroy;421706Some detritus is probably best left behind (or buried), such as hairspray metal bands.  :rolleyes:

Good point.  Very good point.

Quote from: Imperator;421732Also, there is a lot of overlap between both hobbies. Many tabletop gamers play CRPGs.

In my experience the overlap is very one-sided. I know a lot of tabletop gamers who also like to (and regularly do) play tabletop RPGs -- perhaps as many as 70 or 80 percent of them. However, I know relatively few computer RPG/MMO enthusiasts who like to (and regularly do) play tabletop RPGs -- maybe 5 or 10 percent of them. This makes it two separate hobbies in my book. The larger hobby (computer RPGs/MMOs) is also enjoyed by a sizable percentage of tabletop RPG players. However, they really aren't the "same hobby" or you'd see the a similar percentage of computer gamers playing tabletop.

Quote from: Insufficient Metal;421802It's out there now. You can't stop the signal. Of forehead-fucking.

God bless you all!

Quote from: RandallS;421824In my experience the overlap is very one-sided. I know a lot of tabletop gamers who also like to (and regularly do) play tabletop RPGs -- perhaps as many as 70 or 80 percent of them. However, I know relatively few computer RPG/MMO enthusiasts who like to (and regularly do) play tabletop RPGs -- maybe 5 or 10 percent of them. This makes it two separate hobbies in my book. The larger hobby (computer RPGs/MMOs) is also enjoyed by a sizable percentage of tabletop RPG players. However, they really aren't the "same hobby" or you'd see the a similar percentage of computer gamers playing tabletop.

i agree with your numbers but this just makes tabletop the niche end of the hobby

Quote from: Imperator;421653*snip*
So I really think that all this shit about the war is just an attemptto get blog hits, attention, and a sense of importance. Technology has made the prophets meaningless, and the Pundit has the same chances of driving the hobby in any direction as Ron Edwards, Ryan Dancey or Ken Hite: zero. Most people will just use the tech to play the games they want, and ignore the rest.

Really, when the best part of a thread like this is Aos talking about forehead-fucking and thedungeondelver posting a series of Batman meme-comics, you should accept that you have a War on Intelligence, and you're rallying under the Banner of Retardation.

This could be so...

But the entertainment is priceless...

Quote from: jibbajibba;421850i agree with your numbers but this just makes tabletop the niche end of the hobby

I've partaken of both and I see about as much similarity as between RC Cars and model railroading... there might be some crossover nomenclature but the nature of my enjoyment... my approach to each... is completely different. They use different skill sets and equipment... they're different hobbies.