Quote from: Spinachcat;421293Logan's Run got it right.  Old people suck and won't be missed.

Having seen the movie and read the books, you are obviously talking about a different "Logan's Run" than the ones I'm familiar with.  You do understand what a dystopia is, right?

Quote from: Imperator;421636I don't think anyone can make an accurate statement about what was the core of the hobby, not because of a post-modern POV, but for lack of objectve data. Simply that. The hobby is too fragmented.

Ryan Dancey described the closest thing to objective data we're likely ever going to have in public in the message posted here (and in the link on that page) and it doesn't really matter, because then people just doubt the data and the motivation behind it because they don't want to believe it.  That D&D 3e actually managed to achieve the majority of it's goals (which Ryan Dancey laid out in other messages during that discussion on Pyramid) also suggests that their data was actually pretty good, which is a lot more than most people have to back up their opinions.

Thanks, post-modernism, for making it impossible to discuss anything in a meaningful way with facts that aren't perfect, which they never are, and for elevating subjectivity over objectivity so that everyone can believe there opinion is as good as everyone else's, regardless of how much or little support it has.

Quote from: Werekoala;421559Either you're very young, or lamest joke got out-lamed.

Maybe.
But the communists we have here are equal to the number of pastafarians in the Republic of Congo.

And no, there's no "East Germany" any more, at least, not politically...

Quote from: John Morrow;421680Thanks, post-modernism, for making it impossible to discuss anything in a meaningful way with facts that aren't perfect, which they never are, and for elevating subjectivity over objectivity so that everyone can believe there opinion is as good as everyone else's, regardless of how much or little support it has.

The ghost of Derrida?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction

Quote from: Phantom Black;421682And no, there's no "East Germany" any more, at least, not politically...

Other than some really old people, I can't really think of anybody who uses "East Germany" or "Eastern Germany" to refer to East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, Posen, Memel, etc ...

Quote from: Imperator;421653People is designing and playing the games they like, and that's all. Some of them will be more popular than others. I find many indie games absolutely idiotic and uninteresting, and that is wy I am not worried in the least about them driving the hobby in this or that direction. And even if that happened, it would be of zero concern to me. I can play the games I want, wherever and whenever I want, and be a part of communities devoted to those games.

And when those communities disappear because all of the people have decided it's easier to play World of Warcraft or want to play a game you can't stand, instead?  Role-playing is a social hobby that requires other people to play and while you may not have a problem finding or making new players and while there will always be some small number of people who keep the hobby going in some form (just as wargaming never entirely died), it's going to make things more difficult for a lot of people if they can't find people to play with and can't buy game material for the sort of games that they want to play.  It's also going to impact people if their group breaks up over it.

The reason why disco became so reviled in the 1970s wasn't that people think music should never change or because they don't think other people should be able to do their own thing or even simply because they thought it was terrible but because it became ubiquitous and drove the alternatives out of the public space.  You couldn't avoid it and even mainstream rock and roll artists tried their hands at disco.

The reason why people revile the Forge and story-games isn't because some people are selling niche indie games at GenCon but because the language of Forge theory comes to dominate most online discussions of game theory in a bad way and because the ideas in those story games are finding their way into staples of the hobby like D&D 4e and Warhammer 3e, meaning that they are changing the direction of the whole hobby.  That matters for social reasons.

A few times, I've offered up this essay as an analogy for role-playing.  It's about the death of Top 40 radio in the context of WABC in New York City, once the #1 radio station, switching over to talk radio.  In the essay, the author writes:

QuoteWith the advent of FM stations you introduced another 20 plus radio stations into the market. When AM was by itself, there were simply fewer radio stations. Those fewer stations needed broad appeal formats to survive; whether it be music, talk, or news you had target your format to be generally appealing. Now, what happens when you add more radio stations? You end up with a different kind of programming.

Today, radio stations generally do not try to program to everyone. Instead they target a specific demographic group and program to it. So, rather than playing all the hits you pick and choose from that list to fit your demographic. Today, instead of traditional "Top 40", you have Alternative Rock, Classic Rock, Urban Contemporary, Classic Soul, Adult Contemporary, Hot Adult Contemporary, Contemporary Hit Radio, Dance, Oldies and so on. Musicradio WABC tried to reach the audiences of all of this music and successfully did so for many years. But now with so many radio stations, music is fragmented into separate stations each targeting their own small piece of the music audience. This was the ultimate downfall of all the great AM Top Forty radio stations like WABC (and many others like WLS Chicago, CKLW Windsor/Detroit, KHJ Los Angeles etc.).

Was something lost? This is, of course, debatable. In my view, yes. Whenever "we" do things together we have a bond. We all listened to these great Top 40 radio stations in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Ask anyone over the age of 30 if they ever heard of the Beatles, the Four Tops, Elvis Presley, or the Beach Boys and almost everyone can name their hits. Do the same for most any of today's stars and even the 14-25 year olds won't know the stars' names from the "other" formats. Of course, the plus side is that you don't have to listen to a lot of music you don't like just to hear the things you do like. That is the basis for today's music radio programming. Yet, a lot of the fun of a station like Musicradio WABC has been lost. Instead of trying to find that magic formula of what will appeal to most of us, we try to find some combination that won't offend only a few of us. In my opinion, that's too bad.

Simply nostalgia?  That's certainly a part of it.  But there is also something real behind the nostalgia and something that really has been lost, even if you think it's better being lost.

Quote from: Imperator;421653I don't need publishers, and the rallying cry of "they ar subverting our hobby" is a moronic waste of time. The publishers and game designers of the mainstream and indie companies can go fuck themselves and die for all that I  care, new people and new designs will keep appearing.

Given that Koltar works in a game store, I can't fault him for caring about the commercial viability of the hobby.  Other people have legitimate reasons for that concern, too, especially if they rely on the size of the hobby and it's visibility in the public space to find groups to play with.

Quote from: Imperator;421653Really, when the best part of a thread like this is Aos talking about forehead-fucking and thedungeondelver posting a series of Batman meme-comics, you should accept that you have a War on Intelligence, and you're rallying under the Banner of Retardation.

And you are certain which side is which there?

New avatar, anyone? Going begging.

Quote from: ggroy;421684The ghost of Derrida?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconstruction

Yup.  (See this link from that Wikipedia page)

Quote from: John Morrow;421689And when those communities disappear because all of the people have decided it's easier to play World of Warcraft or want to play a game you can't stand, instead?  Role-playing is a social hobby that requires other people to play and while you may not have a problem finding or making new players and while there will always be some small number of people who keep the hobby going in some form (just as wargaming never entirely died), it's going to make things more difficult for a lot of people if they can't find people to play with and can't buy game material for the sort of games that they want to play.  It's also going to impact people if their group breaks up over it.

Buying the game probably isn't the main problem.  One can buy it online, even if all the offline brick-and-mortar gaming stores were to disappear.

The bigger problem is in finding players.   Some people don't like playing over the internet, and insist on playing face to face in person.  A completely dissipated D&D network in the future, would probably be similar to what hex-and-chit wargaming has turned into over the last decade or two.

Quote from: John Morrow;421689You couldn't avoid it and even mainstream rock and roll artists tried their hands at disco.

KISS, Rod Stewart, etc ...

Quote from: ggroy;421687Other than some really old people, I can't really think of anybody who uses "East Germany" or "Eastern Germany" to refer to East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, Posen, Memel, etc ...

Quote from: John Morrow;421689And when those communities disappear because all of the people ... want to play a game you can't stand, instead?

Once that happens you have to accept that you are done and no longer part of the hobby. You can choose that other hobby where you obsess on the companies producing the games, where your hobby is bitterly following the industry itself  or just talk about theory (positive or negatively) as if it actually mattered.

But as for gaming? Once the community moves on, you're just done. You're unable to enjoy it, so it's over for you.

I can't believe I am posting on this thread based on stupidity.

I guess not all threadjackings are evil, as sometimes worhwhile things get said on worded screed-piles.  To John's and Ggroy's point, business and culture share a real 'Evolve or Die'  ingredient.  I have always agreed and while I like my games more with and retro vibe, I like to continually work with the rules.  But the platforms and venues do move forward, regardless.  One of my best games is an IRC, and the play is excellent.

But along with 'Evolve or Die' is the sad detritus of what is left behind, and there always is something, whether in the apt radio analogy, or in other business analogies.  Something is always lost and left behind, some benefit or quirk of the older formats.  The 2 sided record and the track order was a major issue for many musical artists, as was album art, due to the size of the thing.  Things move on, Evolve or Die.

Quote from: John Morrow;421680Ryan Dancey described the closest thing to objective data we're likely ever going to have in public in the message posted here (and in the link on that page) and it doesn't really matter, because then people just doubt the data and the motivation behind it because they don't want to believe it.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly.

I was talking about statements on the "core" activity of gamers when the hobby started. So, when people say "this was roleplaying was about from the start" they are probably full of it. Dancey's data are perfectly valid AFAIC.

Quote from: Phantom Black;421682Maybe.
But the communists we have here are equal to the number of pastafarians in the Republic of Congo.

And no, there's no "East Germany" any more, at least, not politically...

((Pulls up a chair, sets PB on his knee))

Ya see, son, back in the 1980's, there was this place called East Germany... full of bad Commie-types, and part of a band of nations called the Warsaw Pact. They were client states of the old Soviet Union, and tended to band together against the West in all matters.

Every four years or so, there's a world-wide athletics competition called the Olympics. During the Cold War (circa 1948-1991-ish) it was the Soviets and their Clients States vs. America and her Client States, trying to out-do each other by winning medals in these competitions.

Now, many of the events were subjectively scored by Judges, typically representing various nations, who would give a 0-10 point-based score, depending on technical merit, presentation, etc. Not being objectively scored, there were many times when you would see wildly off-kilter scores across the board, and often these differences were broken down along ideological lines. You might get, say, the Japanese judge scoring a gymnastic floor routine at 8.3, while a Yugoslavian judge might give it a 6.4.

Now, in the 1980s, there was a long-running one-liner type joke which was typically was used when people were showing appreciation for another's accomplishment. Typically, it would go something like my original post "I give it a 9.4, but the East German judge only gave it a 7.0" or words to that effect.

So you see, the entire historical concept of East Germany (a phrase that is meaningless to anyone born after 1985 probably) and the socio-political struggles of the East vs. West of the mid- to late-twentieth century, is vital to the execution and understanding of "the joke". I hope that by providing some historical context, you are now able to smirk wryly, or at least not roll your eyes when grandpa is talking. If nothing else, now you can use you superior knowledge of ancient history to impress your hipster friends.

Now get off my lawn. ((shoves PB off the porch))

Quote from: LordVreeg;421700But along with 'Evolve or Die' is the sad detritus of what is left behind, and there always is something, whether in the apt radio analogy, or in other business analogies.  Something is always lost and left behind, some benefit or quirk of the older formats.  The 2 sided record and the track order was a major issue for many musical artists, as was album art, due to the size of the thing.  Things move on, Evolve or Die.

Some detritus is probably best left behind (or buried), such as hairspray metal bands.  :rolleyes: