...Or get your Jalapeno filled chocolate out of my Peanut Butter.

I'm sick of crap like :

 "Well, you'd understand D&D 4/e better if you played MMOs. You do play MMORPGs, don't you?"

 No , I don't - fuck them.

A Table RPG should be just that - Role playing Game meant to be played at a table, with a character sheet and dice.
RPGs should be sold  based on the fact that they ARE DIFFERENT than console or computer game - you got more damn choices than in the damn computer and remote control shit stuff.

No nine poicket card protector sheet full of crappy daily and once-an-encounter power cards so you know what the fuck your character can supposedly do.

To hell with that 'instant superhero' crap.

 I'd rather play a talented amateur who is just starting to be a hero adventurer .

Oh and oh yeah - fuck any and all "DiTV" mechanics being shoved or attempted forcing into real roleplaying games. We don't need the headache or damage to the games and hobby.

Story Games?

 Junk 'em.

 They're not RPGs.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;421147...Or get your Jalapeno filled chocolate out of my Peanut Butter.

I'm sick of crap like :

 "Well, you'd understand D&D 4/e better if you played MMOs. You do play MMORPGs, don't you?"

D&D 4e isn't really like an MMO. It uses some MMO terminology in it's rules, but really, it's a tactical skirmish-level table top war game about fantasy superheroes. Things like precision positioning and forced movement are so vital to the core of the game that they're the very heart of the system. One thing MMOs aren't, it's snap-to-grid.

If I had to compare D&D 4e to any other game, it would be Descent, not WoW. In fact, if Descent were like Squad Leader, D&D 4e would be "Advanced Descent".

QuoteOh and oh yeah - fuck any and all "DiTV" mechanics being shoved or attempted forcing into real roleplaying games. We don't need the headache or damage to the games and hobby.

Story Games?

 Junk 'em.

 They're not RPGs.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Koltar;421147...Or get your Jalapeno filled chocolate out of my Peanut Butter.

I'm sick of crap like :

 "Well, you'd understand D&D 4/e better if you played MMOs. You do play MMORPGs, don't you?"

 No , I don't - fuck them.

A Table RPG should be just that - Role playing Game meant to be played at a table, with a character sheet and dice.
RPGs should be sold  based on the fact that they ARE DIFFERENT than console or computer game - you got more damn choices than in the damn computer and remote control shit stuff.

No nine poicket card protector sheet full of crappy daily and once-an-encounter power cards so you know what the fuck your character can supposedly do.

To hell with that 'instant superhero' crap.

 I'd rather play a talented amateur who is just starting to be a hero adventurer .

Oh and oh yeah - fuck any and all "DiTV" mechanics being shoved or attempted forcing into real roleplaying games. We don't need the headache or damage to the games and hobby.

Story Games?

 Junk 'em.

 They're not RPGs.


- Ed C.

Yeah, because everything new and different is BAD and it should be DESTROYED because it makes me feel unsafe.

Holy shit, don't you have a frontal lobe or something? Yeah, yeah, we know your position based in "Because I said so" arguments and other prodigies of intelectual prowess but, seriously, no one is sayin' that you should stop doing whatever the hell you enjoy doing to do something else. It is tiresome, unoriginal, and the worst thing, boring. With the Pundit's antics at least he creates some form of arguments, delusional as they may be. You don't even try, you just drone about how only the things you like are RPGs (meaning a very limited, narrow kind of games).

Very, very weak. You must try harder. Go have some mushrooms or something. You are funnier when you drone about all the hot gamer chicks you meet at the store and whatnot. More creepy, too, but funnier.

Koltar, what you are doing there can't be good for your heart.

I don't agree completely with Koltar, but 4e is heavily influenced by MMO's and anyone who says it isn't is fooling themselves.

They have dailys, encounter cards (which can be lined up just like the powers on the bottom of the MMO screen), tank, dps, etc.

Quote from: danbuter;421174I don't agree completely with Koltar, but 4e is heavily influenced by MMO's and anyone who says it isn't is fooling themselves.

They have dailys, encounter cards (which can be lined up just like the powers on the bottom of the MMO screen), tank, dps, etc.

Yeah, so what? I'm not denying it. MMOs are important these days, and this version of D&D reflects the times in which it was designed, the same way other versions of D&D will mirror the times in which they were published. You may like it or not, of course, but it is no big deal.

yeah, the Koltars way or the highway is getting a tad tiresome. Ditto the I'm right, 'cause I'm loud thing. And since you apparently must have dice to rpg the right way, you've once again ruled out Amber... poor Amber.

I like 4e for making D20 a bit simpler.

I don't think it went far enough though. D20 4e is still far from a begginer friendly game.

As for the MMO stuff I don't play any serious MMOs (Adventure Quest YAY!) so I didn't get the references until a friend pointed them out to me.

The other "revolution" in 4e was of course the "pay us £5 a month and we'll give you previews, system fixes and updates." Thankfully unlike OGL this didn't catch on and every other RPG company with sense is providing fixes, previews and updates for free.

As for story games. I make a megre living mocking their pretentiousness and have no respect for anyone who takes them seriously.

Quote from: Imperator;421176Yeah, so what? I'm not denying it. MMOs are important these days, and this version of D&D reflects the times in which it was designed, the same way other versions of D&D will mirror the times in which they were published. You may like it or not, of course, but it is no big deal.

I was responding to Dr. Jest.

Whilst Koltar's delivery is a little lame he does represent an element of the RP hobby.

Rather like the Tea party, with whom I suspect he identifies strongly, Koltar yearns for a simpler time when things were clear and there was a lot less confusion.

Now the risk of this of course is that the time that Koltar harks back to never really existed, there were always multiple strands in RPGs and completing ideas and memes. By fixating on his own game experience at a point in time as a halycon age,  he ignores all the other stuff that was going on in the hobby at that time. In addtion by ignoring these influcences there is little room for improvement or innovation.

The 'I know what I like and the rest can go to hell' attitude probabaly closes Koltar and his ilk from getting the most out of new experiences but at the end of the day that is his choice.

So Koltar's opinion will remain Koltar's opinion and Koltar will no dobt enjoy the games he plays. One suspects that rather like a diner in a restaurant that refuses to try 'any of that vile foriegn muck'  his RP expereince may be a little dull and a little too vanilla for many of us but as long as he is happy who are we to judge.

(Good job he just works at the store rather than owns it though or he would go out of business pretty quick )

Quote from: Koltar;421147I'm sick of crap like :

 "Well, you'd understand D&D 4/e better if you played MMOs. You do play MMORPGs, don't you?"  No , I don't - fuck them.

Hm. I neither identify with the Tea Party, nor with the "Democrats" nor any other political party, for that matter. But I DO understand Koltar, and very well so.

In another thread, Benoist has mentioned it already: The strength of roleplaying lies in active, physical-psychological immersion. That's something no computer game can offer. 4e really plays like an MMO -- thus sacrificing its unique strength on the altar of computer games.

I don't like 4e exactly because it plays like an MMO. Where's the difference between trad rpgs and computer games IF not in the potential of fully immersive play?

QuoteA Table RPG should be just that - Role playing Game meant to be played at a table, with a character sheet and dice.
RPGs should be sold  based on the fact that they ARE DIFFERENT than console or computer game - you got more damn choices than in the damn computer and remote control shit stuff.

Word.

QuoteNo nine poicket card protector sheet full of crappy daily and once-an-encounter power cards so you know what the fuck your character can supposedly do.

There's a reason why even 4e designers play OD&D, I'd say.

QuoteStory Games?
 Junk 'em.
 They're not RPGs.

Oh, well...

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;421180yeah, the Koltars way or the highway is getting a tad tiresome. Ditto the I'm right, 'cause I'm loud thing. And since you apparently must have dice to rpg the right way, you've once again ruled out Amber... poor Amber.

Amber never gets any love. Sad.

Quote from: danbuter;421184I was responding to Dr. Jest.

My apologies if I sounded harsh, it was not aimed to you. I'm simply tired of people complaining because game design is a product of its time instead of being frozen in the favourite time of the whiney bitch, that Magical Time Of Legend Where Everything Was Awesome.

Internet and MMOs are now a part of our culture, and of the gaming experience. It stands to reason that these things will influence RPG design, in the same way that D&D has influenced CRPGs for fucking ages. For fuck's sake, World of Warcraft is a bog-standard D&D game, with all the fucking tropes, to boot.

And if you don't like the current trend, which I completely respect, you have your games, and thanks to Internet ever gamer is living through a Renaissance. Every. Single. One. So you are not defending the cause of Wholesome All-American RPGs, you are looking like a fucking inbred Amish yelling because electricity is the work of Satan.

Quote from: jibbajibba;421187Whilst Koltar's delivery is a little lame he does represent an element of the RP hobby.

Indeed. And he should express his opinion, as he does. And everyone should be free to tell him that he's full of it when all his argumentation is reduced to "Because I say so."

QuoteRather like the Tea party, with whom I suspect he identifies strongly, Koltar yearns for a simpler time when things were clear and there was a lot less confusion.

Which is a Myth.

QuoteNow the risk of this of course is that the time that Koltar harks back to never really existed, there were always multiple strands in RPGs and completing ideas and memes. By fixating on his own game experience at a point in time as a halycon age,  he ignores all the other stuff that was going on in the hobby at that time. In addtion by ignoring these influcences there is little room for improvement or innovation.

The 'I know what I like and the rest can go to hell' attitude probabaly closes Koltar and his ilk from getting the most out of new experiences but at the end of the day that is his choice.

So Koltar's opinion will remain Koltar's opinion and Koltar will no dobt enjoy the games he plays. One suspects that rather like a diner in a restaurant that refuses to try 'any of that vile foriegn muck'  his RP expereince may be a little dull and a little too vanilla for many of us but as long as he is happy who are we to judge.

(Good job he just works at the store rather than owns it though or he would go out of business pretty quick )

I suscribe your post 100%. Again, I would fight to death for Koltar's right to behave like an Amish if he prefers to do so. I respect his wish to believe that everyone in the world played the style of game he played, and that makes the majority of the hobby, despite the glaring evidence against it.

But I will also defend my right to call him on his bullshit, and be called on mine. FREEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Quote from: Koltar;421147Story Games?

 Junk 'em.

 They're not RPGs. in my opinion


- Ed C.

Fixed your typo Ed

Quote from: Imperator;421176Yeah, so what? I'm not denying it. MMOs are important these days, and this version of D&D reflects the times in which it was designed, the same way other versions of D&D will mirror the times in which they were published. You may like it or not, of course, but it is no big deal.

Or as my local FLGS manager said "Wizards knows who they are losing customers to" meaning that is why D&D 4 has an MMORPG feel without being an MMORPG

Geez, can we lay off the nerdrage already?  

1. Don't play games you don't enjoy
2. Don't shit on games someone else enjoys

Just follow these two simple rules and we'll all get along.