Greetings!

How important are frontier trading posts in border areas of your campaign? What kinds of detail do you provide or them? I use frontier trading posts all the time, and they serve as good locations for trade, culture exchange, as well as news. I typically provide them with a roster o typical supplies and trade goods, highlighted by local favourites and specialties, and then with a small random chance for something unusual. I typically provide frontier trading posts with the owner, family, some labourers, a dozen guards, and a few craftsmen. Add in some rough quarters for half a dozen or dozen visitors and travelers, and it's ready to go.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 30, 2022, 03:28:45 PM
Greetings!

How important are frontier trading posts in border areas of your campaign? What kinds of detail do you provide or them? I use frontier trading posts all the time, and they serve as good locations for trade, culture exchange, as well as news. I typically provide them with a roster o typical supplies and trade goods, highlighted by local favourites and specialties, and then with a small random chance for something unusual. I typically provide frontier trading posts with the owner, family, some labourers, a dozen guards, and a few craftsmen. Add in some rough quarters for half a dozen or dozen visitors and travelers, and it's ready to go.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have them as occassional outposts near monster infested lands. While most monsters will just try to raid the place, some do try to trade there (or are they just scouting the place out?). On one occasion, I had an orc hire adventurer help there to remove a troublesome shaman from his tribe.

It all depends on how pseudo-realistic the setting is trying to be. I personally can't stand the idea of unwalled, open villages of 100 inhabitants somehow existing within an hour's walking distance of hostile intelligent humanoid lairs (or the lairs of big monsters), but I tend to see a lot of it in fantasy settings. I like to image most frontier trading posts are within the walls of border forts, but even then I figure that they are primarily just a side business for those that devote most of their time to supporting the outpost itself.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 30, 2022, 05:02:13 PM
It all depends on how pseudo-realistic the setting is trying to be. I personally can't stand the idea of unwalled, open villages of 100 inhabitants somehow existing within an hour's walking distance of hostile intelligent humanoid lairs (or the lairs of big monsters), but I tend to see a lot of it in fantasy settings. I like to image most frontier trading posts are within the walls of border forts, but even then I figure that they are primarily just a side business for those that devote most of their time to supporting the outpost itself.

I picture a trading post being several day's travel from a dangerous area. Explorers and mountain men go out from the trading post to their homesteads, and come back at the end of the season with piles of furs or what have you to trade. They are protected by sheer distance.

A fort, on the other hand, would be right on the border, or even a couple days into the badlands if there is something there worth controlling, like a river crossing or a strategic pass.

Quote from: Lurkndog on January 30, 2022, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 30, 2022, 05:02:13 PM
It all depends on how pseudo-realistic the setting is trying to be. I personally can't stand the idea of unwalled, open villages of 100 inhabitants somehow existing within an hour's walking distance of hostile intelligent humanoid lairs (or the lairs of big monsters), but I tend to see a lot of it in fantasy settings. I like to image most frontier trading posts are within the walls of border forts, but even then I figure that they are primarily just a side business for those that devote most of their time to supporting the outpost itself.

I picture a trading post being several day's travel from a dangerous area. Explorers and mountain men go out from the trading post to their homesteads, and come back at the end of the season with piles of furs or what have you to trade. They are protected by sheer distance.

A fort, on the other hand, would be right on the border, or even a couple days into the badlands if there is something there worth controlling, like a river crossing or a strategic pass.

I don't disagree with the theory, but in practice, many fantasy settings put undefended settlements within spitting distance of terrible monsters. That's the part that I don't like as it kills some of my immersion to think that these peoples have lived in this world for centuries and don't think to look out for their own protection (beyond somehow attracting wandering adventurers just in the nick of time).

I like them. I fleshed out a snow-covered Slavic-inspired one for my Magic the Gathering card-driven Hegemon response to players. Just search my posts and MtG and it should pop up.

That said, as awesome as they are for being a liminal place (cultural exchanges, edge of "civilization v wilds," nomadic v agrarian node, etc.) I don't find my players enjoy them as much as I do. Part of their advantage is they are small places with usually more manageable beginner stakes. But often narratively the drive to "hurry up to the awesome already!" assumes that means the big city. So there is this conflict of expectations.

And by the time players fully internalize I am not going to pull the setting's punches, players often become noticeably self-conscious and more risk averse. Then big city dreams and high adventure becomes terrified, hard scrabble survival, scared to leave the tidal shoals for deeper waters. So finally my trading posts and borderland villages start to feel safer than the scary beyond, yet small town cramped.

Maybe I should chase them out into the big scary city with Hallmark channel Christmas rom-com seasonal one-shots, like Halloween horror one-shots... 

(edit: I fort my posts. But yes, the popular aesthetic is remarkably undefendable. Those are exposed homesteads that should be supported by rapid cavalry retaliations... but everyone skips the raids and retaliations steps. Maybe it is too much friction, less The Shire bucolic?)

Greetings!

Yeah, I agree, Frontier Trading Posts should definitely be defended! Many times, of course, border forts will certainly host frontier trading posts. That kind of development goes back even to the Romans, in Britain, as well as Germania, along the Wall.

Even as separate entities though, I think frontier trading posts should have some walls, a gate or two, and maybe a tower, or two. Probably at least a dozen warriors and scouts to protect it. I think you could easily justify a platoon. Not a full-blown border fort always, of course, but yeah, it's probably on its way to becoming one fairly easily.

Especially in light of all the crazy monsters. I think civilized locations--especially humans--are going to be generally fortified and protected to a higher degree. It's a harsh and brutal world. Most communities are going to provide defenses and some warriors for such locations, even moreso when you assume it has some trading and cultural value. Even if the nearby community is relatively primitive, the defenses of such valued locations can be surprising. Stone and earthen walls, a few towers, 20 to 50 warriors. some scouts, maybe some archers a well. Well stocked with water, food, provisions of all kinds. Depending on the tribe, maybe some horsemen as well.

These places shouldn't be naked and helpless. I'd also imagine them being quite alert--friendly, but also alert and ready. They are no strangers to bandits, barbarians, or bullshit conmen alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Indeed, especially if you look elsewhere around the world you find fortifications of some sort regardless of technology. From using hard to reach places (cliffsides), natural defense cordons (thorny bramble, thick bushes, swamps), to heavy concealment terrain (badlands, arroyos, half-buried longhouses), defense was attempted to counter offense -- and then counter-offenses were done too. Humans and big animals were enough of a survival threat that bucolic places like The Shire are mostly impossible.

Seems like the critical thing to determine is what is being traded. Once you know that you can determine the volume and if it is mobile.
Also how well guarded it has to be to survive. A place that benefits many can be off limits to conflicts.

What makes it different from a village Market Day? If the area can't support a stable market for the people that live there, what makes a Trading Post viable? The answers to these questions determine a lot about it.

Depends on the game... But they are pretty critical.

Mine usually take the form of a tiny village that's fortified. Mainly based on the old Irish crannógs (depending on terrain of course).

Simple locations that are relatively safe and can offer food, goods and a place to rest. Probably an ale house in the form of a meeting hall for news and rumors, etc.

Well, this is relevant to me as I'm running the Isle of Dread for my group.

The trading post has been set up adjacent/attached to the village of Tanaroa. Thanks to the party making a good impression and doing good things, both the village and the post are flourishing. In game terms, they can resupply mundane equipment there (mostly), though I laughed in one of the players' faces when he asked about buying magic items. This ain't Karameikos, kiddo.

(In his defense, he's a kid and didn't know better.)

I've described it as having a very strange blend of both native and mainland architectural styles, which oddly seems to work well. There is also a small shrine set around the window where the party leaves the talking miniature cactus, as the villagers have decided it is a minor nature spirit and leave small offerings there.

Quote from: SHARK on January 30, 2022, 10:46:40 PM
Greetings!

Yeah, I agree, Frontier Trading Posts should definitely be defended! Many times, of course, border forts will certainly host frontier trading posts. That kind of development goes back even to the Romans, in Britain, as well as Germania, along the Wall.

Even as separate entities though, I think frontier trading posts should have some walls, a gate or two, and maybe a tower, or two. Probably at least a dozen warriors and scouts to protect it. I think you could easily justify a platoon. Not a full-blown border fort always, of course, but yeah, it's probably on its way to becoming one fairly easily.

Especially in light of all the crazy monsters. I think civilized locations--especially humans--are going to be generally fortified and protected to a higher degree. It's a harsh and brutal world. Most communities are going to provide defenses and some warriors for such locations, even moreso when you assume it has some trading and cultural value. Even if the nearby community is relatively primitive, the defenses of such valued locations can be surprising. Stone and earthen walls, a few towers, 20 to 50 warriors. some scouts, maybe some archers a well. Well stocked with water, food, provisions of all kinds. Depending on the tribe, maybe some horsemen as well.

These places shouldn't be naked and helpless. I'd also imagine them being quite alert--friendly, but also alert and ready. They are no strangers to bandits, barbarians, or bullshit conmen alike.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

These forward posts are very important for both expansion of the realm/domain as well as resource gathering.   Much like there was forts setup all over the American Frontier for trappers and to come to the defense of settlers, these outposts make a fantastic way to setup encounters that are deep into the Unknown.

Sounds like ya'll are describing a caravanserai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravanserai

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 31, 2022, 04:15:50 PM
Much like there was forts setup all over the American Frontier for trappers and to come to the defense of settlers, these outposts make a fantastic way to setup encounters that are deep into the Unknown.

This is actually a one of the most important things to note when trying to re-create the general feel of old TSR-style modules and settings. A lot of people like to go on about how these aren't historically accurate in the basic details, but that's not precisely true. The setup is very accurate to how things were on the American frontier back in the 1800s. It's just that the people living in it are all dressed up in Ren Faire cosplay.

For decades I'd assumed that the original TSR writers just didn't have any historical knowledge and it's a pretty recent thing for me to realise that no, they were in fact applying the knowledge that they did have to a setting that was very different.


-Lots of towns that lack walls despite there being dangers nearby.

-A lack of local Lords or other authority beyond a community council.

-Roving bands of independent opportunists who get hired to reinforce a community when the locals need help rather than appealing to distant rulers.


I could go on, but I think most regulars of this forum will be able to see the parallels themselves. Now, you could argue about whether this in itself is realistic- the Wild West culture was the product of advanced civilisation rapidly expanding into an untamed wilderness full of hostile "Barbarian" tribes while the feudal society of Europe was the product of the opposite process. But once you look at things this way it all does make more sense.


More on topic- I think that in many situations the Frontier Trading Post makes sense, but do consider the social structure of the local nation-states. If a trading post flourishes enough then one day someone will ride into town with a dozen men-at-arms waving a Royal Charter saying he's in charge now and everyone has to (at least) start paying him tax.

(For added historically accurate shenannigans- shortly after another such petty noble shows up waving a charter from the rival nation who also claims the region but doesn't actually have any boots on the ground there...)

Petty noble shows up waving a charter. So very human.