No, not a vast horde, just a tiny pathetic minority. And they aren't a conspiracy because they aren't secret or organized. There's no "secret master plan", their actions and their motives are blatantly open and visible for all to see.  And there's clearly no mastermind or great unified front among them; they're clearly losing.

I had hoped it was really based on you misunderstanding me; and that your claims that I want "nothing more than hack n' slash D&D" (patently FALSE), and that I believe in "conspiracy theories" were products of a lack of familiarity with me and what I'm talking about; and not just pathetic and typical attempts to slander me. But I guess that its the latter, after all.

Your maliciousness is pretty fucking obvious, for one. You're so offended and affected that I would suggest roleplaying games are just games, and that they should be easy, fun, and widely available that you have to launch this campaign to try to stop me.

Why would that be?

You know what? Actually, frankly I don't care why that would be. Whether its because some other Swine convinced you that you have to roleplay that way, or because uncle frank touched you in a dirty way in the park, or because you're just an asshole; I really don't give a shit.

All I care about is that the way you get your "fun" depends on the existence of a kind of roleplaying hobby (an exclusive and elitist hobby of pretentious pseudointellectualism) that is totally antithecal to the kind of roleplaying hobby (an inclusive and popular hobby of game playing) I and the majority of gamers need to get our fun.  So I will thwart you at every turn.

RPGPundit

Pass some of that weed man.. It has to be some *fine* shit.

Quote from: PookaPass some of that weed man.. It has to be some *fine* shit.

Yea, right, because clearly I'm just talking shit. Clearly no one uses RPGs as an excuse to be pretentious and elitist, EVER. Right?

Clearly the Forge and the RPG.net Modclique and White Wolf's talking about "role playing not roll-playing" and claiming pretentious superiority to D&D is all just shit I made up, right?

Clearly there are NOT groups of people who consistently believe that D&D can't possibly be used for anything other than mindless wargaming, and that D20 is the source of all evil that will ruin RPGs by "appealing to the lowest common denominator", right? No one has ever said that...

And clearly Maddman didn't suggest that just because I don't join him in his love of gaming theory I MUST only want "Hack n slash Dnd", right?

RPGPundit

Believe it or not RPGPundit, I actually get what you're saying, and to a certain degree I agree with you. I have never liked WoD games exactly because of that obnoxious "role-play vs. roll-play" BS they seemed to espouse. I, for one, have never needed rules to govern any of my characters personality or social interaction, because that, for me, is where the actual role-playing comes in. I decide how my character interacts socially and what personality he has based on the concept I have of him and the write-up I did on his background and personality. I like the tactical combat style of D20 because combat is exactly where I want and need rules and randomness to make the game fun for me, but I have no trouble at all role-playing a character in D20 games. I really feel that this is what you are saying, and that it angers you to hear/see people basah D20, calling it a "roll-playing" game and talking smack about how it "sucks" because it doesn't happen to appeal to their sense of "depth" or "relevance". I think I really do get it, and like I said, for the most part I agree. The reason I think you become a target for people, which unfortunately distorts your message, is because of the claims you make about how influential your "outcry" over these things is. I'm not saying that you aren't influential, and I'm not saying you are....what I'm saying is that when you feel the need to point out your perception of the effect your vocalization has had, you lessen your credibility. It comes across as self-aggrandization and that gives folks an excuse to attack you through that instead of dealing with your true message. Just how I see it brother, if I'm completely wrong let me know and I'll work on once again trying to "get-it". Just to reiterate, the pretentiousness of some in the hobby really does irritate me too, I just try to ignore them as acknowledging it just makes them that much more smug and intolerable.

Quote from: SigmundThe reason I think you become a target for people, which unfortunately distorts your message, is because of the claims you make about how influential your "outcry" over these things is.

Nah, he'd still be a target even if he never made any claims to importance at all. Nature of the beast. All you have to do is state an opinion that's roughly traditional (as in traditional rpg play), and it's on.

The only other option is to roll over and give up. Which given how insignificant such debate is on the Internet, is really not that bad of a option.

Quote from: gleichmanNah, he'd still be a target even if he never made any claims to importance at all. Nature of the beast. All you have to do is state an opinion that's roughly traditional (as in traditional rpg play), and it's on.

The only other option is to roll over and give up. Which given how insignificant such debate is on the Internet, is really not that bad of a option.

You're probably right, but RPGPundit's slef-promotion still doesn't help, because then that's what becomes a focus and any other message gets either distorted or outright downed-out in the flame-fire.

Quote from: SigmundYou're probably right, but RPGPundit's slef-promotion still doesn't help, because then that's what becomes a focus and any other message gets either distorted or outright downed-out in the flame-fire.

It doesn't help in that it makes it difficult for people who may agree with him on major points to take his side. Even if his claims are true, it comes across very badly.

In the big picture, they'd just select something else to focus on. Without the self-promotion, they'd focus on his rudeness. If he wasn't openly rude, they'd still call him rude because he disgrees with them.

Be there and seen it all.

Quote from: SigmundBelieve it or not RPGPundit, I actually get what you're saying, and to a certain degree I agree with you. I have never liked WoD games exactly because of that obnoxious "role-play vs. roll-play" BS they seemed to espouse. I, for one, have never needed rules to govern any of my characters personality or social interaction, because that, for me, is where the actual role-playing comes in. I decide how my character interacts socially and what personality he has based on the concept I have of him and the write-up I did on his background and personality. I like the tactical combat style of D20 because combat is exactly where I want and need rules and randomness to make the game fun for me, but I have no trouble at all role-playing a character in D20 games. I really feel that this is what you are saying, and that it angers you to hear/see people basah D20, calling it a "roll-playing" game and talking smack about how it "sucks" because it doesn't happen to appeal to their sense of "depth" or "relevance". I think I really do get it, and like I said, for the most part I agree. The reason I think you become a target for people, which unfortunately distorts your message, is because of the claims you make about how influential your "outcry" over these things is. I'm not saying that you aren't influential, and I'm not saying you are....what I'm saying is that when you feel the need to point out your perception of the effect your vocalization has had, you lessen your credibility. It comes across as self-aggrandization and that gives folks an excuse to attack you through that instead of dealing with your true message. Just how I see it brother, if I'm completely wrong let me know and I'll work on once again trying to "get-it". Just to reiterate, the pretentiousness of some in the hobby really does irritate me too, I just try to ignore them as acknowledging it just makes them that much more smug and intolerable.

Well, hey, if you or the whole site wants to poke fun at my MASSIVE ego, then go nuts! I make no qualms about the fact that I'm arrogant as all fuck.

It mostly pisses me off that instead they choose to try to mock me for shit that isn't true, and in the process make it seem like the shit I'm talking about isn't really happening.

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichmanIt doesn't help in that it makes it difficult for people who may agree with him on major points to take his side. Even if his claims are true, it comes across very badly.

In the big picture, they'd just select something else to focus on. Without the self-promotion, they'd focus on his rudeness. If he wasn't openly rude, they'd still call him rude because he disgrees with them.

Be there and seen it all.

Precisely. And I think that the self-promotion DOES in fact help, because it creates a rallying point for the counterargument. The "other side" certainly knows how to self-aggrandize. They're people who are in many cases absolute nonentities (like Eyebeamz) pretending to be "industry insiders". Fuck, in others they're people with tiny companies who's influence is meaningless in a market where Wizards is the 800lb gorilla, banding together to pretend there is such a thing as an "RPG Industry" outside of Wizards, congratulating each other for their brilliance and giving each other awards as if, in comparison to D&D, anyone is fucking playing their games.

Not to mention the gang of self-promoting Swine who took control of RPG.net, pretending that they are the great authorities of what's in the "vanguard" of RPG fashion, talking about the "influence" of games like "Nobilis", "Weapons of the Gods" and "My life with Master" as if these were in any way names that the average REAL roleplayer would recognize, and dedicating thread upon thread to how to solve the "problems" of D20.

So hey, I think what the "good guys" need here is a few more guys like me, who are willing to aggresively self-promote to get the message across; It doesn't really come naturally to us, because we see RPGs as a game, a game we might really be passionate about, but still a game (and not say, fucking Rocket Science).  But using the Swine's own seriousness against them is the only way to play the game and talk about the hobby on the internet in such a way that it will in any way reflect the true realities of what the hobby is in the outside world today.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNot to mention the gang of self-promoting Swine who took control of RPG.net

No, how YOU doing?

Quote from: RPGPunditSo hey, I think what the "good guys" need here is a few more guys like me, who are willing to aggresively self-promote to get the message across; It doesn't really come naturally to us, because we see RPGs as a game, a game we might really be passionate about, but still a game (and not say, fucking Rocket Science).  But using the Swine's own seriousness against them is the only way to play the game and talk about the hobby on the internet in such a way that it will in any way reflect the true realities of what the hobby is in the outside world today.

I see the point you're making.

In fact, the only reason I'm currently online here at all is to watch you play whack-a-mole on the Swine as you call them. I'm not above taking some joy out of watching you call them names and break their illusions. They do after all deserve it IMO. Especally the Forge and RPGNet.

Other than the enjoyment factor however, I wonder if us good guys *need* it.

It's not like they've made any real impact on the world outside their little sand castles. They haven't stolen any players from my group. They take up hardly any shelf space at the LGS. Their only sin is taking up bandwidth online which they seem to do in spades. But our type of gamer is generally too busy playing cool games to even notice that.

In fact, this plays to D20's strength in a way. They have so discredited the concept of products that don't carry that logo, they may have well become part of WoTC's ad budget. "No D20 Logo, must be a fruity story game", said Joe customer tossing the book back on the self.

They are insignificant, and will likely remain insignificant until a more important future force (whatever that may be) impacts the 'rpg industry' in its own way.

So go at it.

Just don't over-reach on the self-promoting. Online you're part of a small minority, and any factual error on your part will hurt far more than the grandest lies they may tell.

Quote from: gleichmanI see the point you're making.

In fact, the only reason I'm currently online here at all is to watch you play whack-a-mole on the Swine as you call them. I'm not above taking some joy out of watching you call them names and break their illusions. They do after all deserve it IMO. Especally the Forge and RPGNet.

Other than the enjoyment factor however, I wonder if us good guys *need* it.

It's not like they've made any real impact on the world outside their little sand castles. They haven't stolen any players from my group. They take up hardly any shelf space at the LGS. Their only sin is taking up bandwidth online which they seem to do in spades. But our type of gamer is generally too busy playing cool games to even notice that.

In fact, this plays to D20's strength in a way. They have so discredited the concept of products that don't carry that logo, they may have well become part of WoTC's ad budget. "No D20 Logo, must be a fruity story game", said Joe customer tossing the book back on the self.

They are insignificant, and will likely remain insignificant until a more important future force (whatever that may be) impacts the 'rpg industry' in its own way.

So go at it.

Just don't over-reach on the self-promoting. Online you're part of a small minority, and any factual error on your part will hurt far more than the grandest lies they may tell.

I'm with gleichman on this one. If it don't bother you RPGPundit, then I'm with ya. Heck I'm even a fan of Blue Rose, yet when I mention that what I don't like about it is it's subtle gender-based discrimination elements and tyranical deer I get jumped for I didn't even count how many posts, as if I'm not entitled to my opinion. If that's the way it was all the time on rpg.net I'm glad I've never bothered to post there. And just for the record, I don't think I've seriously mocked anyone on this or any other message board. If jokes are made it's only been to laugh with someone, not at them.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo hey, I think what the "good guys" need here is a few more guys like me, who are willing to aggresively self-promote to get the message across; It doesn't really come naturally to us, because we see RPGs as a game, a game we might really be passionate about, but still a game (and not say, fucking Rocket Science).  But using the Swine's own seriousness against them is the only way to play the game and talk about the hobby on the internet in such a way that it will in any way reflect the true realities of what the hobby is in the outside world today.

RPGPundit

This here is why I posted what I did. It is just a game. I really enjoy the game, it helps me keep my imagination active, and it gives me lots of fun, but it's still just a game in the end. I really can't imagine people taking it all that seriously.

Quote from: SigmundThis here is why I posted what I did. It is just a game. I really enjoy the game, it helps me keep my imagination active, and it gives me lots of fun, but it's still just a game in the end. I really can't imagine people taking it all that seriously.

Sadly it's a rather common affliction.

Rather than saying that they are playing a game, they have to say that they are creating art.

They even go further.

I had exchanges with one designer who's work had as part of its setting directed abuse of children by magically influenced adults, he went so far as to claim therapeutic benefits from it instead of seeing how it could pander to less than idealistic natures of people.

As if your average gamer is trained to make therapeutic use of his game, or as if his warnings of mature subject in the text had any ability to change how the product would be used.

In the end, it's about ego. People want to attach value to what they do.

Why they need more value than "I had a cool game this weekend, everyone enjoyed themselves" is beyond me. But they do.

To them it has to be Art, It has to be Therapy. It has to be Meaningful. It has to have something of great Value.

And one way they grant themselves value is by devaluing others. Thus we hear "role-playing not roll-playing" thrown about on almost every forum on the internet.

I play games. I design games. I hope I do the former better than I do the latter. My games are role-playing games built around a detailed wargame foundation. For me, that's really the end of the subject.


I'm of mix mind about RPGPundit's attacks. One one hand, it is sinking to their level. On the other, I've been hammered so often for my style of play I just plain enjoy watching the fire go the other way for a change.

I imagine that I'll reach a degree of contentment over the new few days and sign off the RPG forums for a while again.

Heh, I hear ya. I can't imagine a rpg being used as "therapy". I'm a drug addiction counselor, and although some "role-playing" is sometimes involved in therapy, that's by no stretch of the imagination anything to do with rpgs. It's actually disturbing to me that someone would actually think that.