Quote from: yosemitemike on January 04, 2024, 04:56:22 AM
The assertion that you need 3 hours to get back into the game is still bullshit.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 08:09:56 PM
If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

The existence of a meta is not necessary to explain the success of D&D themed reality shows like Critical Role any more than a cooking meta is necessary to explain the success of cooking reality shows.  There are a number of other possible reasons including much more obvious ones.  The existence of successful D&D themed reality shows does not prove the existence of a 5e meta at all.

It was hyperbolic, but far from false.

I made no mention of reality shows like Critical Role.  I'm referencing channels pulling down enough income to replace jobs that are solely about mechanical ideas for 5e.  There are MANY of them.  If there's no audience for these because no one thinks about the meta, how do you explain it?

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:08:57 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on January 04, 2024, 04:29:51 AM
"Most", "almost invariably". Sounds to me like you're spending too much time keeping up with the meta and the Youtubers and not enough time playing the game?

I definitely watch too much YouTube, but most of it is political.

The topic for me hasn't changed, but let's recap.

This specific adventure uses premades, and I was incorrect to assume players would want to research before replacing their character if they die.

In general, however, they would absolutely put more effort into it than someone would in an OSR game.

And so long as this is the case, killing them when they do not expect it should be a last resort.

Seems very cut and dried to me.

Greetings!

I remember during the 3E days, while I loved the system, and the skills, and the trainloads of detail and customization--all of that recalled the glories of Rolemaster--on one hand, it was a fantastic system, and just awesome.

However, the flaw gradually grew and grew over time, as more skills, more abilities, more special whatever, continued to grow and add layer upon layer to Character creation. Even making NPC's as the DM became a double-edged sword--part joy, and part mind-numbing pain. For Player-Characters it often took them *hours* to make up a character. Levelling up? Yeah, that, too, could take considerable time. As the DM, even when I embraced some aspects of shortcuts, copy-paste, and pre-made templates--creating NPC's also became a chore.

These considerations had a subtle, cascading effect.

No one wanted their characters to die. EVER. Likewise, I was loathe to have any favoured NPC Henchmen, friends, and sidekicks ever die, either. Creating their replacements would take all weekend. *Laughing*

I *love* detailed, robust systems. I also love detailed characters. I appreciate Players that are passionate, and eager to put in the time and effort to create, detail, and develop their characters in realistic, interesting, and believable ways.

However, as alluded to in my commentary, in the current D&D, all of these trends in spending hours and hours creating characters--that can't or shouldn't die--all of that gets supported dynamically within the game system and rules, essentially creating unstoppable superheroes. THAT dynamic right there totally transforms a campaign, and unless you are purposely going for the Superhero theme, none of those changes and dynamics brought or infiltrated into the game are good. It surely ruins a well-thought out, planned campaign. Such can on the surface be great fun for the Players--but increasingly, as we have seen by many people's testimonies about 5E, especially with DMing the game--all of that becomes very much not fun.

So, I say forget the several hours of character creation, long and over-wrought, dramatic backstories, and all the new BS.

Make the whole process short, quick, and brutal. If the Players survive past, 3rd level, what have you, then they can begin to set out some roots and develop more detailed relationships with characters, NPC's, and so on. That's all fine, and I think generally expected, and good.

But early on? In the beginning of character creation?

No. Keep it quick, simple, and brutal.

That is easier for you, the DM, and there won't likely be the sweet rivers of tears for the Players when their characters that have 10-pages of epic, super-hero backstories all before Level 1 get ripped apart and devoured by monsters.

Or brutally spit-roasted over a roaring fire and devoured by the Orcs.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 04, 2024, 09:35:04 AM
So, I say forget the several hours of character creation, long and over-wrought, dramatic backstories, and all the new BS.

Make the whole process short, quick, and brutal. If the Players survive past, 3rd level, what have you, then they can begin to set out some roots and develop more detailed relationships with characters, NPC's, and so on. That's all fine, and I think generally expected, and good.

But early on? In the beginning of character creation?

No. Keep it quick, simple, and brutal.

That is easier for you, the DM, and there won't likely be the sweet rivers of tears for the Players when their characters that have 10-pages of epic, super-hero backstories all before Level 1 get ripped apart and devoured by monsters.

So long as the expectation is set ahead of time that this will be the case, I completely agree.

If you're picking up new players as a new GM and this is everyone's first experience with TTRPGs, then I advise against meat grinders and character funnels.

That's the funny thing about advice, it's very situational.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:12:51 AM
It was hyperbolic, but far from false.

I made no mention of reality shows like Critical Role.  I'm referencing channels pulling down enough income to replace jobs that are solely about mechanical ideas for 5e.  There are MANY of them.  If there's no audience for these because no one thinks about the meta, how do you explain it?

It was both.

All that proves is that D&D has a system.  It doesn't prove that it has a meta.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 04, 2024, 08:54:10 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:12:51 AM
It was hyperbolic, but far from false.

I made no mention of reality shows like Critical Role.  I'm referencing channels pulling down enough income to replace jobs that are solely about mechanical ideas for 5e.  There are MANY of them.  If there's no audience for these because no one thinks about the meta, how do you explain it?

It was both.

All that proves is that D&D has a system.  It doesn't prove that it has a meta.

Ultimately it's irrelevant.  There's a non-zero risk that a 5e player will want to research which character build they want to use next.  And that's as much as I need to make my case.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:04:50 PM
Ultimately it's irrelevant.  There's a non-zero risk that a 5e player will want to research which character build they want to use next.  And that's as much as I need to make my case.

That's a far cry from saying that it will take a player 3 hours to get back into the game which is what you initially claimed.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 04, 2024, 09:48:08 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:04:50 PM
Ultimately it's irrelevant.  There's a non-zero risk that a 5e player will want to research which character build they want to use next.  And that's as much as I need to make my case.

That's a far cry from saying that it will take a player 3 hours to get back into the game which is what you initially claimed.

No, it's really not.

The typical 5e player who participates in the meta will suffer player elimination until the next session.

There's no material difference between that and my, admittedly hyperbolic, statement.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:54:47 PM
No, it's really not.

The typical 5e player who participates in the meta will suffer player elimination until the next session.

There's no material difference between that and my, admittedly hyperbolic, statement.

Yes, it really is. 

Bollocks.  People who plot out their builds like that have several already made at any given time.  They can be back in the action immediately.  I am also still not sold on the idea that 5e has a defined meta or that most players adhere to it if such a thing even exists in any meaningful concrete sense. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2024, 03:12:30 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:54:47 PM
No, it's really not.

The typical 5e player who participates in the meta will suffer player elimination until the next session.

There's no material difference between that and my, admittedly hyperbolic, statement.

Yes, it really is. 

Bollocks.  People who plot out their builds like that have several already made at any given time.  They can be back in the action immediately.  I am also still not sold on the idea that 5e has a defined meta or that most players adhere to it if such a thing even exists in any meaningful concrete sense.

A new PC can be rolled up quickly but it's been my experience that most players like to pour over all their options (with five fuckin' books, no less) every time they do a new PC.  It's not unusual to see even an experienced player take over an hour to prepare a new PC.

As a response, I flat out ban Tasha's (or anything printed since) and only allow the PHB and one other book for PC creation.  I also require a session 0 where everyone rolls up two PCs with all the players present and everyone picks one PC and hands me the sheets for the rest.  When a PC dies, I will hand them a PC from the stack at random.  This, with a number of other house rules, PC creation and combat rules cheat sheets, a primer for the setting, any starter handouts, a contact list and links to online resources, and any other things I feel players need are written out and given to players before session 0 as a packet.  I have had players read my house rules and back out and I've had a few try to negotiate a rule or so away but I've never had anyone express any discontent once play has started.  I find that in the end, players get that much of what I'm doing is for the benefit of the whole table.

I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a pretty draconian GM when it comes to sticking to the rules as decided on and keeping the results of rolls.  I didn't start out this way, I got tired of my games getting wrecked due to people pushing on my flexibility on some things.  What I didn't expect is that now the players thank me for my rigidness as it makes them feel as if the game is being run honestly and fairly.

tl;dr  Players can waste a lot of time in PC creation unless you hold their feet to the fire to get it done.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2024, 03:12:30 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 04, 2024, 09:54:47 PM
No, it's really not.

The typical 5e player who participates in the meta will suffer player elimination until the next session.

There's no material difference between that and my, admittedly hyperbolic, statement.

Yes, it really is. 

Bollocks.  People who plot out their builds like that have several already made at any given time.  They can be back in the action immediately.  I am also still not sold on the idea that 5e has a defined meta or that most players adhere to it if such a thing even exists in any meaningful concrete sense.

You could likewise not be sold on the curvature of the earth.  But to me it's simply true.  I've already done way more than is necessary to make you aware of it.  You could go check for Treantmonk, DNDshorts, Indestructoboy, (and on and on), observe the view counts on their monetized videos, tally up their Patreon support numbers, look at their kick-started books, and so on.  You'll find more total money than is typical for the OSR, which I hope we both agree exists.  What other burdens do I reasonably owe your denial?

It's certainly plausible that some metagamers have characters ready.  But again they'd need to have that expectation set up front.  Death is rare in 5e.

Set expectations up front.

Quote from: BadApple on January 05, 2024, 04:12:18 AM
tl;dr  Players can waste a lot of time in PC creation unless you hold their feet to the fire to get it done.

Yes.  The only thing I'd point out is there are players who wouldn't choose to play an RPG that doesn't allow for this investment of time.  They like to game the system for maximal effect.  They don't consider it a waste.  WotC calls them Spike.  We used to call them Munchkins.  But they are out there still today.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 05, 2024, 09:03:43 AM
You could likewise not be sold on the curvature of the earth.

There's the bad faith argument.  That was inevitable.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 05, 2024, 09:03:43 AMWhat other burdens do I reasonably owe your denial?

Some evidence beyond your assertion that the success of these shows is caused by the existence of a meta rather than obvious things like people looking for stuff they can use in their games.

Actually, nevermind.  It's not worth my time.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2024, 09:21:13 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 05, 2024, 09:03:43 AM
You could likewise not be sold on the curvature of the earth.

There's the bad faith argument.  That was inevitable.

Don't mischaracterize what I said.  You could be a Flat Earther and be right for all I know.  I simply don't have a reason to care one way or the other.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 05, 2024, 09:21:13 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 05, 2024, 09:03:43 AMWhat other burdens do I reasonably owe your denial?

Some evidence beyond your assertion that the success of these shows is caused by the existence of a meta rather than obvious things like people looking for stuff they can use in their games.

Actually, nevermind.  It's not worth my time.

At what point did I claim people metagame without using that knowledge in their games??  And I'm the one arguing in bad faith??  OF COURSE they use it at the table.  That's why character creation takes longer for this type of player.  Like, honestly, what the hell?

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 05, 2024, 09:07:48 AM

Quote from: BadApple on January 05, 2024, 04:12:18 AM
tl;dr  Players can waste a lot of time in PC creation unless you hold their feet to the fire to get it done.

Yes.  The only thing I'd point out is there are players who wouldn't choose to play an RPG that doesn't allow for this investment of time.  They like to game the system for maximal effect.  They don't consider it a waste.  WotC calls them Spike.  We used to call them Munchkins.  But they are out there still today.

Yeah... a guy that wants to take an hour at my table during a session is going to get kicked.  You want to be a munchkin, do it on your own time.  I got up and walked away from a table once where other players were pressuring me to let a guy roll up a new PC rather than take one of the back-ups. 

We've discussed this before.

If you want to run a high lethality game, that's your gig. But don't expect me to expend more than a token effort on giving my PC some characterization if he's got approximately the same survival chances of a rookie in X-Com.

The same goes for optimization and character construction. If you're playing in a high lethality game, you might not want to spend all that time teasing out every scrap of bonus if you run the risk of it all going to waste the next time you fail a saving throw. Save the optimization for later levels.