Quote from: mcbobbo on December 29, 2023, 06:52:25 PM

1) Some kind of pre-planned multi class progression...

2) ...sourced from at least three books.  The most recent ones have the juiciest options, especially if it's MTG.

3) A detailed backstory.

None of this is at all necessary to make a 5e character.

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 29, 2023, 06:52:25 PM
Most characters are more than this in 5e land.  They almost invariably have:

1) Some kind of pre-planned multi class progression...

2) ...sourced from at least three books.  The most recent ones have the juiciest options, especially if it's MTG.

3) A detailed backstory.

If you have a backup character made you could well be good to go in five minutes.  If you don't care about using more than the PHB or care how the character will "build" then sure.

I haven't known anyone who plays 5e that way since about 2015.

How are you calibrating your sense of "most" or "typical"? Perhaps "haven't known anyone" is a product of local table culture?

Of the last 20+ 5e characters I've seen in campaigns I've DM'd/played in, over the last 4 years, there's been exactly one multiclass, which wasn't pre-planned, over ~ 100 sessions / ~ 100 level-ups. Maybe two have had detailed backstory? (Admittedly, 4 of those 20+ PCs were pregens.) Only one brought in a homebrew DMsGuild class.

Arguing against the idea of a meta in 5e isn't worth the effort.  First I'd need to prove I am omniscient.  Then I would need to prove a negative.  All for something that is very obvious (5e is not OSR.). No thanks.  If my opinion isn't valid to you that's your loss in this case because I happen to be right.

Quote from: SHARK on December 30, 2023, 03:04:41 AM
There is definitely a weird disconnect and dissonance between what lots of these "adults" involved with gaming think kids like--and what I experienced as a young kid playing D&D. ALL of my friends were the same way, too. "Murder Hobo's" may be a term the kids think is original to now, but my D&D groups were hip-deep in blood, fire, and gold, starting at a young age.

Adventures saving a baby dragon. Hmmm. Ok, that's a fine enough main plot, but why is the adventure module otherwise so sugar-coated and sweet? Where is the blood and screaming? Where is the HATE? Where is the vengeance? The GOLD and TREASURES! Where is the drive for conquest and triumph?

If I got this module, I would have to heavily modify and change it, even if I was DMing the module for kids. Lately, these kind of modules remind me of the Barbie dolls and doll house play that 7 and 8 year old girls enjoyed playing when I was a kid. Definitely not for kids interested in playing Dungeons and Dragons though, for sure.

Not all kids or adults are the same. Years ago when my son was 8, he loved stories like The Hobbit, Narnia, Redwall, and Protector of the Small. He wasn't into blood and hatred and vengeance. He usually wanted to be the big-hearted good guy who protects the weak, rather than bullying and plundering. Even in his love for kaiju, he liked the idea of Godzilla as the protector of Earth against evil aliens like Mecha-Godzilla or Ghidorah, rather than being the villain.

On the other hand, my friend Lee's 11-year-old is playing in my current D&D campaign, and he's enjoying being a dark Loki-like sorcerer who is being tempted by evil. Nothing wrong with kids who are into grimdark blood and guts looting, but it's not the totality of all kids. There can be different modules based on taste.

I remember back in 2007, I ran a rescue as my scenario when I was running D&D for an 11-year-old's birthday party, and it went over pretty well.

https://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/59156.html

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 30, 2023, 08:54:20 AM
Arguing against the idea of a meta in 5e isn't worth the effort.  First I'd need to prove I am omniscient.  Then I would need to prove a negative.  All for something that is very obvious (5e is not OSR.). No thanks.  If my opinion isn't valid to you that's your loss in this case because I happen to be right.

Dude, you're 100% fucking wrong. The first two points are true of late 3.X D&D, but not any 5th edition game I ever played in, and the third is a product of jackasses and has nothing to do with the actual game itself. So, whatever.

Quote from: Brad on January 03, 2024, 07:07:54 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 30, 2023, 08:54:20 AM
Arguing against the idea of a meta in 5e isn't worth the effort.  First I'd need to prove I am omniscient.  Then I would need to prove a negative.  All for something that is very obvious (5e is not
OSR.). No thanks.  If my opinion isn't valid to you that's your loss in this case because I happen to be right.

Dude, you're 100% fucking wrong. The first two points are true of late 3.X D&D, but not any 5th edition game I ever played in, and the third is a product of jackasses and has nothing to do with the actual game itself. So, whatever.

If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 08:09:56 PM

If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

You're wrong, sorry. Youtube videos don't make actual play non-existent. The only thing that literally matters. I am not saying none of that exists, I am simply saying your opinion that EVERYONE plays that way is absolute horseshit and trying to imply anyone disagreeing with the necessity of all these extra books and countless hours of theorycrafting are just WRONG is beyond the pale. Why don't you fuck off back to RPG.net or something?

Quote from: Brad on January 03, 2024, 09:17:08 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 08:09:56 PM

If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

You're wrong, sorry. Youtube videos don't make actual play non-existent. The only thing that literally matters. I am not saying none of that exists, I am simply saying your opinion that EVERYONE plays that way is absolute horseshit and trying to imply anyone disagreeing with the necessity of all these extra books and countless hours of theorycrafting are just WRONG is beyond the pale. Why don't you fuck off back to RPG.net or something?

As predicted, you demand omniscience and ask me to prove a negative.

Then you Other me.

All I did was ask the question - what would it look like if 5e had a meta?

It seems you're saying that so long as a single game you personally observe doesn't have one, none exists.

Then you offer me to fuck off.

Quality discussion, isn't it?

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 09:21:20 PM
All I did was ask the question - what would it look like if 5e had a meta?

What is a meta?

Quote from: Aglondir on January 03, 2024, 10:06:48 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 09:21:20 PM
All I did was ask the question - what would it look like if 5e had a meta?

What is a meta?

It's when analyzing the mechanics or construction of a thing becomes as much of a pass time as the actual thing.  In games and Internet culture it tends to become advice.

5e examples are +20 perception bards, falling damage from summoned creatures who can summon creatures, or stacking sorcerer and fighter to stealthily cast prestidigitation twice in the same turn.

Or everything printed in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, honestly.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 09:21:20 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 03, 2024, 09:17:08 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 08:09:56 PM

If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

You're wrong, sorry. Youtube videos don't make actual play non-existent. The only thing that literally matters. I am not saying none of that exists, I am simply saying your opinion that EVERYONE plays that way is absolute horseshit and trying to imply anyone disagreeing with the necessity of all these extra books and countless hours of theorycrafting are just WRONG is beyond the pale. Why don't you fuck off back to RPG.net or something?

As predicted, you demand omniscience and ask me to prove a negative.

Then you Other me.

All I did was ask the question - what would it look like if 5e had a meta?

It seems you're saying that so long as a single game you personally observe doesn't have one, none exists.

Then you offer me to fuck off.

Quality discussion, isn't it?

You're just getting out of it exactly what you put into it.  I keep waiting for you, in a single thread somewhere on this site, to express an opinion worth even considering.  Alas, mene mene tekel upharsin...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 03, 2024, 10:16:03 PM
You're just getting out of it exactly what you put into it.  I keep waiting for you, in a single thread somewhere on this site, to express an opinion worth even considering.  Alas, mene mene tekel upharsin...

Okay, but why are you monitoring me at all?  Who am I that requires your blessing?  And who are you to give it?

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 09:21:20 PM
All I did was ask the question - what would it look like if 5e had a meta?

This might be what you want to change the subject to, but that's not what you said that we've been responding to:

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 29, 2023, 12:56:01 PM
And while I'm making that point, let me also point out that character creation is not "roll in order and make one decision".  It takes about three hours for you to get back into the game after you die.

And then you doubled down on your claims of generality with:

Quote from: mcbobbo
Most characters are more than this in 5e land.  They almost invariably have:

1) Some kind of pre-planned multi class progression...

2) ...sourced from at least three books.  The most recent ones have the juiciest options, especially if it's MTG.

3) A detailed backstory.

"Most", "almost invariably". Sounds to me like you're spending too much time keeping up with the meta and the Youtubers and not enough time playing the game?

The assertion that you need 3 hours to get back into the game is still bullshit.

Quote from: mcbobbo on January 03, 2024, 08:09:56 PM
If I wasn't wrong, what kind of evidence would we see?  For example, if there's a meta in 5e, would it be possible for people to earn money making content for it?

Might that money surpass what most OSR creators see from their RPG pursuits?

What if there were thirty or so of these on YouTube?

The existence of a meta is not necessary to explain the success of D&D themed reality shows like Critical Role any more than a cooking meta is necessary to explain the success of cooking reality shows.  There are a number of other possible reasons including much more obvious ones.  The existence of successful D&D themed reality shows does not prove the existence of a 5e meta at all.

Quote from: Naburimannu on January 04, 2024, 04:29:51 AM
"Most", "almost invariably". Sounds to me like you're spending too much time keeping up with the meta and the Youtubers and not enough time playing the game?

I definitely watch too much YouTube, but most of it is political.

The topic for me hasn't changed, but let's recap.

This specific adventure uses premades, and I was incorrect to assume players would want to research before replacing their character if they die.

In general, however, they would absolutely put more effort into it than someone would in an OSR game.

And so long as this is the case, killing them when they do not expect it should be a last resort.

Seems very cut and dried to me.