I came across this interesting blog post on the Trollsmyth blog:  From One Generation to the Next where he clearly and succinctly breaks down some of the differences in the different generations of DnD players.

What do you think?  Do you agree or not with the different definitions and where, if anywhere, do you think that you fall?

My personal timeline puts me in the Voyager camp but our early formative games were very much Grognard-like using our wits to "out smart" the game by dodging the monsters and stealing the treasure (and precious XPs) from behind their backs.

Hearing about D&D players always makes me happy to run non-D&D games.

Somehow, all of the D&D player neurosis don't show up when I run other RPGs with gamers of various ages.  

The idea that OD&D/AD&D1e era players didn't name their PCs or care about their deaths is overhyped internet bullshit. From the earliest days, plenty of D&D groups were all about their PC's heroic tales with plenty of backstories for their 3D6 randomly generated characters. And there's never been a dearth of players who just treat their PC like a game pawn (blue meeple #3), regardless of edition.

Well thought out post! I think they clearly hit the nail on the head there.

I'm also of the Voyager generation, and everything he described is true to us. But I was enamored with the following generation and jumped in with complete abandon. Trying to reconcile the two goals was (frankly) exhausting. I still like my rules! Just not in a "this is how you can master the game" way, but more in the "here's cool ideas to customize powers and spells and items" kind of way. I wish I had a game engine that was HERO 6e at its roots but D&D 5e on its face. :-D I could have my Voyager play while secretly indulging my rules-mastery at home prepping settings and campaigns.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099453Hearing about D&D players always makes me happy to run non-D&D games.

Somehow, all of the D&D player neurosis don't show up when I run other RPGs with gamers of various ages.  

The idea that OD&D/AD&D1e era players didn't name their PCs or care about their deaths is overhyped internet bullshit. From the earliest days, plenty of D&D groups were all about their PC's heroic tales with plenty of backstories for their 3D6 randomly generated characters. And there's never been a dearth of players who just treat their PC like a game pawn (blue meeple #3), regardless of edition.

So I am guessing "Golden Age" for you then?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1099453Hearing about D&D players always makes me happy to run non-D&D games.

Somehow, all of the D&D player neurosis don't show up when I run other RPGs with gamers of various ages.  

The idea that OD&D/AD&D1e era players didn't name their PCs or care about their deaths is overhyped internet bullshit. From the earliest days, plenty of D&D groups were all about their PC's heroic tales with plenty of backstories for their 3D6 randomly generated characters. And there's never been a dearth of players who just treat their PC like a game pawn (blue meeple #3), regardless of edition.

Gary notoriously had a bunch of "special" PCs. The one who wanted to play a Balrog because it was cool, the cowboy with "magic wand" 6 shooters, and numerous pet PCs that have all kinds of spells named after them.
The article writer does aknowledge that there is no clear demarkation, and the play styles blend into each other, but I don't find his classifications useful. I played a ton in the "Voyager" time frame, and none of my games resemble his description.
In fact, my Grognard phase (Basic, AD&D) was more like what he describes as Voyager, and my Voyager phase (2nd ed) was more like Rules Masters.

I'd say I'm a Grognard / Voyager.  I'm definitely not in either of the camps which came afterward.

Age-wise, I'm a late Grognard/early Voyager

However looking at the descriptions, I tend to be a bastard hybrid
10% Grognard
50 % Voyager
40% Epic Stream

However D&D wasn't my first rpg, and it was a long way down the list from my favourites. So I think the influence of other rpgs didn't always mirror that of D&D

Its a great post.

I'm 100% old school. As a result, I'm the only person among my friends and play group that runs an old school style game.

Maybe it is a dying art. I sort of feel like high player agency games are dying out. Replaced by high story level adventures. Its a shame, really, because there is an untapped world of adventure waiting for those who want to let go of the shackles of story.

Interesting enough, I think 5e has a real effect on players. I run 5E and B/X weekly for the same group / in the same dungeon. There was a lot more faffing around in the 5E game with town stuff than in the B/X game. My B/X game is direct into the dungeon and into the action. 5E has brings a lot more non adventuring stuff (when I only have 3 hours to run, I want to get to the meat of the game).

EVERYTHING in 5E is orders of magnitudes slower to resolve than OSR. I appreciate the pervasiveness and reach of 5E, but man I just can't deal with it much longer.

I posted there:

Good post, but I think it misses out a big difference between the Original Grognards of 74-77 and the first mass-market gamers of ca 1981-1988. IME the two games were very different. In the Stranger Things Generation we weren't rolling 3d6 in order or interviewing henchmen, our PCs had names, they probably were Cavaliers or Rangers with Double Weapon Specialisation who could take on small armies at 3rd level. We were the Munchkins! But we were still exploring site-based dungeons like Keep on the Borderlands, not pre-written stories - it's just that we were slaughtering every MF'ing orc in the dungeon, and rarely running away.

I can't speak to the other categories, but his definition of grognard is ignorant. It bears little resemblance to my experience of OD&D play nor to what I read in the fanzines of the day about how other people played. Cases in point, PCs without names is just nonsense and while rolling 3D6 was the default, plenty of groups devised alternate rolling mechanisms e.g. roll 4D6 and keep the best 3. Roll 3D6 six times assigning each score to the attribute of your choice, and others. Alternate rolling mechanisms were pretty common after Greyhawk, with it's stat bonuses, was published.

Ivory tower theorizing is ivory tower theorizing.  News at 11:00.

Quote from: Bren;1099498I can't speak to the other categories, but his definition of grognard is ignorant. It bears little resemblance to my experience of OD&D play nor to what I read in the fanzines of the day about how other people played. Cases in point, PCs without names is just nonsense and while rolling 3D6 was the default, plenty of groups devised alternate rolling mechanisms e.g. roll 4D6 and keep the best 3. Roll 3D6 six times assigning each score to the attribute of your choice, and others. Alternate rolling mechanisms were pretty common after Greyhawk, with it's stat bonuses, was published.

When I was a boy walking uphill in the snow both ways Names were a luxury.  I did not get one until my brother was finished with it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1099538Ivory tower theorizing is ivory tower theorizing.  News at 11:00.

Sounds like something a 3e Rules Master would say?

Quote from: Shasarak;1099556Sounds like something a 3e Rules Master would say?

I don't know, but since the only D&D rules system I like less than 3E is 3.5 and its copies, probably not.

It's a very thought provoking article, to say the least and I liked it. Still, I'm not sure where I'd range myself? I started in the Voyager age (mid-late 90s with AD&D 2e and all the kits and THAC0 and yadda-yadda) and wasn't that much of a fan. A lot of that could be the DM's fault and maybe a bit of the rules though I was in HS and wanted to read a D&D book about as much as my Math book, lol. I'd say I would fall into the Rules Master group as I started to get heavy into D&D with 3.0 and then 3.5 but now....I really hate all the rules minutia of 3e/Pathfinder.

Maybe us 4E fans just don't fit into the categories well? A weird juxtaposition between the end of Rules Master (because 4e does put focus on Rules, but less so about mastering every single aspect as it wasn't nearly as needed) and the beginning of the Epic Stream players? I think maybe there's a micro-group there but I wouldn't know what to name it (at least, not something derogatory)?

I guess I don't think much of the article, mainly because it completely misses the most significant period in D&D's history: the point at which it was adopted as a mainstream party game, and became a a legit mainstream fad. This was maybe 1978-1982?

It's that brief period of mainstream exposure that accounts for nearly all of D&D's name recognition, IMHO. It was popular for a time, and then controversial. Televangelists condemned it on the national stage. There was the 1982 Mazes and Monsters TV movie, bad as it was.

Also, the game was sold in mainstream bookstores and toy stores at the time, not just in the hobby stores.

Personally, I remember a group of junior high kids convincing our English teacher to devote a class period to demoing the game, because it was seen as being educational. And this was not the nerds, it was the girls who would go on to be cheerleaders.

I was in grade school and junior high at the time, so I can't really speak to the full details of when and why it happened. I think the early boxed sets were a major factor. But I do know that it happened.