Yep.

I'm long past trying to rehabilitate D&D. The verdict is in: WE ARE NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE ANY LONGER.

There is no reconciling that fact, there is no "fixing" it from within. The rocket has left the launchpad and you're either on it with the plebs, or you're tacitly looking for something else.

There a lot of reasons to court the 5e audience as a game developer (See the new Talislanta!) but if you have any kind of discerning tastes there is a veritable sea of games to explore that will give you whatever you think D&D is serving up to you - with more fidelity, and better consistency.

D&D today, is like Apple PC's. Junky under the hood but sleek in production, and highly user-friendly for those that don't know better. They're ubiquitous. Everyone has them because of brand-name and what they're told they're good for. Most IT nerds/gamers don't use them because they value function over form. Nevermind the cost. But if you're a casual user, they're great. And you'll pay a premium for that brand that gives sub-standard performance 1) They don't know better and don't want to know better 2) they likely have no other frame of reference. Nor is it required. Unless you're more into form over function or ulterior reasons*<----- this is the important part.

And they actively do not want my money nor me as a consumer, and that's okay.

Popularity doesn't track directly to quality. And everyone is entitled to their tastes - let's not pretend a McDonald's burger is better than a well cooked quality steak. I'll eat the shit out of a Big Mac, but I'll eat a steak first. I find zero value in identifying as a McDonald's consumer.

Quote from: tenbones on February 10, 2022, 12:31:51 PM
D&D today, is like Apple PC's. Junky under the hood but sleek in production, and highly user-friendly for those that don't know better. They're ubiquitous.

Nah, D&D is like Windows: junky under the hood but everybody uses it because everybody else uses it and everything supports it.

OSR games are like Linux: some assembly required, but worth it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on February 04, 2022, 06:16:39 PM
2014 is the same turgid game of today.

Don't any of you OSR fanatics complain about healing surges, encounter powers, purely beneficial races, multiclassing, munchkining or anything else you complain about 2e-4e, but defend in 5e because its core maths are worse then 1e and it lays out its data less clearly.

But Shrieking Banshee, dont cha know its better because there are no expansions?

Quote from: Shasarak on February 10, 2022, 10:18:34 PMBut Shrieking Banshee, dont cha know its better because there are no expansions?

Which is funny because 5e still had more classes and archetype options in its base book, then 3e and 4e. And at least some of the better content came out later on for 3e/4e.

But man its so OSR inspired man. 5e is the Jesus toast of OSR. And at least that has more credibility by pure improbability.

Quote from: tenbones on February 10, 2022, 12:31:51 PM
I'm long past trying to rehabilitate D&D. The verdict is in: WE ARE NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE ANY LONGER.

There is no reconciling that fact, there is no "fixing" it from within. The rocket has left the launchpad and you're either on it with the plebs, or you're tacitly looking for something else.

I don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was? For example, if I go out to a restaurant, my question is "Is the food delicious to me?" I don't look at the other people to see if they look like me, or if the marketing is directed at me. For example, my local taqueria has a target audience who are mostly Latino, which I am not. But they have delicious, cheap Mexican food. I'll also confess that I sometimes boba tea - and I'm definitely not the target audience for them either. (The target audience is mostly teens and young adults.)

In a game, I look at "Will I and my friends have fun playing this?" I don't research who the creators are or what the marketing campaign is. I look at reviews of the game itself and whether it sounds fun to play.

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 10:55:17 PMI don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was?

Well Star Trek was made for people with a bit more of an attention span before, but a tolerance for cheesy special effects. Now its made like shlock. I was a target audience member before, and now I am not.

It makes no sense to withhold hope Il ever be a target audience member again and not get excited for any new releases or even bother expressing my discontent because it will change nothing is the TLDR.

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 10:55:17 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 10, 2022, 12:31:51 PM
I'm long past trying to rehabilitate D&D. The verdict is in: WE ARE NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE ANY LONGER.

There is no reconciling that fact, there is no "fixing" it from within. The rocket has left the launchpad and you're either on it with the plebs, or you're tacitly looking for something else.

I don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was? For example, if I go out to a restaurant, my question is "Is the food delicious to me?" I don't look at the other people to see if they look like me, or if the marketing is directed at me. For example, my local taqueria has a target audience who are mostly Latino, which I am not. But they have delicious, cheap Mexican food. I'll also confess that I sometimes boba tea - and I'm definitely not the target audience for them either. (The target audience is mostly teens and young adults.)

In a game, I look at "Will I and my friends have fun playing this?" I don't research who the creators are or what the marketing campaign is. I look at reviews of the game itself and whether it sounds fun to play.

  Well, if the manager at that restaurant came over to you, spit in your tea and told you he hates it when you spend money at his restaurant, I think your opinion would change.   That is what tenbones means.   You ARE the target audience at a mexican restaurant, because the owner wants EVERYONE to come in there and spend money, he does not care if you are white, black, brown, asian, or alien.   Whereas D&D keeps doing their best to spit in tea.   

Quote from: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 11:17:18 PM
Well, if the manager at that restaurant came over to you, spit in your tea and told you he hates it when you spend money at his restaurant, I think your opinion would change.

I think a more apt analogy is a restaurant that advertises a large selection of items but are conveniently always out of stock for the items you actually like whenever you're there and you're openly mocked for asking about them.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 11:17:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 10:55:17 PM
I don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was? For example, if I go out to a restaurant, my question is "Is the food delicious to me?" I don't look at the other people to see if they look like me, or if the marketing is directed at me. For example, my local taqueria has a target audience who are mostly Latino, which I am not. But they have delicious, cheap Mexican food.

  Well, if the manager at that restaurant came over to you, spit in your tea and told you he hates it when you spend money at his restaurant, I think your opinion would change.   That is what tenbones means.   You ARE the target audience at a mexican restaurant, because the owner wants EVERYONE to come in there and spend money, he does not care if you are white, black, brown, asian, or alien.   Whereas D&D keeps doing their best to spit in tea.

I can't see how this analogy fits.

There's no spit in anyone's tea. At my local taqueria, I can see them preparing my food, so I know they're not spitting in it - just as I know when I buy a game, I'm getting exactly the same game and service as everyone else, because I can compare the product I receive to others. In both cases, I'm getting exactly the same product and service as the target audience.

I have no idea what the owner of the restaurant wants. Maybe he hates it when people like me come in, and he complains about it in his social circles. I have never bothered to try to overhear the manager's conversations or look up his social media. For example, he might be the minority of strong right-wingers in my area, who hates liberals and thinks we should all fuck off. I don't know, and I don't care enough to find out.

Quote from: jhkim on February 11, 2022, 12:21:57 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 11:17:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 10:55:17 PM
I don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was? For example, if I go out to a restaurant, my question is "Is the food delicious to me?" I don't look at the other people to see if they look like me, or if the marketing is directed at me. For example, my local taqueria has a target audience who are mostly Latino, which I am not. But they have delicious, cheap Mexican food.

  Well, if the manager at that restaurant came over to you, spit in your tea and told you he hates it when you spend money at his restaurant, I think your opinion would change.   That is what tenbones means.   You ARE the target audience at a mexican restaurant, because the owner wants EVERYONE to come in there and spend money, he does not care if you are white, black, brown, asian, or alien.   Whereas D&D keeps doing their best to spit in tea.

I can't see how this analogy fits.

There's no spit in anyone's tea. At my local taqueria, I can see them preparing my food, so I know they're not spitting in it - just as I know when I buy a game, I'm getting exactly the same game and service as everyone else, because I can compare the product I receive to others. In both cases, I'm getting exactly the same product and service as the target audience.

I have no idea what the owner of the restaurant wants. Maybe he hates it when people like me come in, and he complains about it in his social circles. I have never bothered to try to overhear the manager's conversations or look up his social media. For example, he might be the minority of strong right-wingers in my area, who hates liberals and thinks we should all fuck off. I don't know, and I don't care enough to find out.

  It fits, you just do not have the same perspective Tenbones has.  I made it clear, the manager isnt trying to spit and you not know, he is walking over to your table, looking you in the eye and spitting.  Your opinion of the place would change instantly.    I can also assure you same as with race he could be super right wing, but guess what, right wing restaurant owners (and a bit of a clue here, LOTS of them are going to be right wing, especially on a California scale) do not care about politics at work.  They are not going to go on long social media rants about lefties, they are not going to ever let you know it, even if he has issues with someone's race/politics/whatever.   He is interested in providing good service, product, and making everyone feel welcome.    This is exactly what a business should do.  Wizards of the Coast has decided to go another way.  Bringing your politics up an into your workplace is fucktarded.  It is their business, so they can run it as they see fit.  Just because you do not see it the way tenbones does, well they have not said or done anything to make you feel on the outs.  Maybe they never will.  So be it. 

   I personally do not get into a producer's beliefs for the most part if they put out a good product.  If I did, in the current political landscape and all the support for the BLM organization, I wouldnt buy shit from big corporations.  Same with RPGs, so long as the producers do not lose their mind and keep it to some virtue signaling, so be it.  But there is a point where some customers will tap out and go elsewhere.   As for your restaurant analogy, I have a place similar where I live.  I used to be the only white face in the place.  The customers always looked at me like I was lost, and the only staff who could speak English was the owner.  He always had a quick word with me every time I was in there (he likely did this with every person coming in, as he was newly opened).  That went on for about a year.   Work schedule and newborn kid kept me from popping in for a year or so.  When I was able to go, he had expanded greatly, and the place had lots of white folks and black folks in along with what was before an almost homogenous crowd of Mexican customers.  The food, did not taste the same.  It was distinctly less spicy (and I know why, white people do not seem to understand the word HOT, and that was also on the menu now, as the owner had a menu that was half in english now) and did not taste the same.   A few years later he opened another location in a city down the road that was full of upper middle class white people.   I ate there, and it was pretty bland.   In essence the guy almost had to change his food to be more available to a wider audience.  I was no longer the target audience (I like spicy, flavorful food).  I stopped going.   Luckily there are taco trucks at damn near every gas station, so I found a replacement.

    This could also be the change tenbones is talking about, making the product more bland to be available to a wider audience, and honestly more the one I feel with regard to WOTC products.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 11, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Work schedule and newborn kid kept me from popping in for a year or so.  When I was able to go, he had expanded greatly, and the place had lots of white folks and black folks in along with what was before an almost homogenous crowd of Mexican customers.  The food, did not taste the same.  It was distinctly less spicy (and I know why, white people do not seem to understand the word HOT

White American people. Try our English mustard & our Chicken Vindaloo. 

In Britain spice is a macho thing, especially for a certain kind of (probably inebriated) chap - the hotter & more painful the better. But even our regular condiments like mustard are much harsher than the American or French versions.

Quote from: S'mon on February 11, 2022, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 11, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Work schedule and newborn kid kept me from popping in for a year or so.  When I was able to go, he had expanded greatly, and the place had lots of white folks and black folks in along with what was before an almost homogenous crowd of Mexican customers.  The food, did not taste the same.  It was distinctly less spicy (and I know why, white people do not seem to understand the word HOT

White American people. Try our English mustard & our Chicken Vindaloo. 

In Britain spice is a macho thing, especially for a certain kind of (probably inebriated) chap - the hotter & more painful the better. But even our regular condiments like mustard are much harsher than the American or French versions.

  Been to England, ate some of the things they told me were spicy, and honestly though it was the only thing I did not have that was bland (to be fair, I was only there 2 days) was not what I would call close to hot or spicy.  Also to be fair, the shit I eat will kill a bear and sometimes I wonder why I do it.  But I did not eat anything that I would call crazy hot. But again, I might not be the best scale.   I am also going to say...I bet there are lots of people in England that are good to go with bland food a good deal of the time.  But it was a long time ago, and I have no idea how exposed to hot mexican food you are, I would imagine hot Indian food would be more common for you when it comes to crossing cultures.  I was also 5-6 pints deep into some dark draft, after not drinking or being on flat ground for 2 months, so there is also a chance I was just a bit numb.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 11, 2022, 08:57:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 11, 2022, 12:21:57 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 10, 2022, 11:17:18 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2022, 10:55:17 PM
I don't get this. Leaving aside who "we" is, why would I care whether I'm the target audience, or if I ever was? For example, if I go out to a restaurant, my question is "Is the food delicious to me?" I don't look at the other people to see if they look like me, or if the marketing is directed at me. For example, my local taqueria has a target audience who are mostly Latino, which I am not. But they have delicious, cheap Mexican food.

  Well, if the manager at that restaurant came over to you, spit in your tea and told you he hates it when you spend money at his restaurant, I think your opinion would change.   That is what tenbones means.   You ARE the target audience at a mexican restaurant, because the owner wants EVERYONE to come in there and spend money, he does not care if you are white, black, brown, asian, or alien.   Whereas D&D keeps doing their best to spit in tea.

I can't see how this analogy fits.

There's no spit in anyone's tea. At my local taqueria, I can see them preparing my food, so I know they're not spitting in it - just as I know when I buy a game, I'm getting exactly the same game and service as everyone else, because I can compare the product I receive to others. In both cases, I'm getting exactly the same product and service as the target audience.

I have no idea what the owner of the restaurant wants. Maybe he hates it when people like me come in, and he complains about it in his social circles. I have never bothered to try to overhear the manager's conversations or look up his social media. For example, he might be the minority of strong right-wingers in my area, who hates liberals and thinks we should all fuck off. I don't know, and I don't care enough to find out.

  It fits, you just do not have the same perspective Tenbones has.  I made it clear, the manager isnt trying to spit and you not know, he is walking over to your table, looking you in the eye and spitting.  Your opinion of the place would change instantly.    I can also assure you same as with race he could be super right wing, but guess what, right wing restaurant owners (and a bit of a clue here, LOTS of them are going to be right wing, especially on a California scale) do not care about politics at work.  They are not going to go on long social media rants about lefties, they are not going to ever let you know it, even if he has issues with someone's race/politics/whatever.   He is interested in providing good service, product, and making everyone feel welcome.    This is exactly what a business should do.  Wizards of the Coast has decided to go another way.  Bringing your politics up an into your workplace is fucktarded.  It is their business, so they can run it as they see fit.  Just because you do not see it the way tenbones does, well they have not said or done anything to make you feel on the outs.  Maybe they never will.  So be it.

Right after I saw him spit in my food, I would beat his ass.

 Point about the white people, I have noticed when crossing cultures they often take what they think of as hot, and find out other people have a different idea.  As  I think more about it, I might have been even deeper in those pints, I just remember we downed the first 4 in 30 mins, and the locals kept buying us drinks so I will have to get hold of the mustard at least and see.  Brand you would recomend?  As for Vindaloo, isnt that an Indian dish?