Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
I would preffer you were accurate as to what was being said and then argue against or for it.

I guess we will both just have to learn to live with inaccuracy.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 04, 2022, 04:44:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
I would preffer you were accurate as to what was being said and then argue against or for it.

I guess we will both just have to learn to live with inaccuracy.

Then you'll also have to learn to be called out on it won't you?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 05:12:08 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on February 04, 2022, 04:44:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
I would preffer you were accurate as to what was being said and then argue against or for it.

I guess we will both just have to learn to live with inaccuracy.

Then you'll also have to learn to be called out on it won't you?

So we are agreed?

I will continue to post as normal and you continue to call me out for my many many inaccuracies.

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

2014 5e is a great game. 

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Well said, my friend!

I don't have a problem with people not preferring 5E. It has flaws, for certain. I also *detest* the political SJW bullshit that WOTC is pumping into recent supplements. I know you like SW, for example.

Just the kind of frothing, seething hatred of 5E gets a bit much for me. The constant drumbeat of "5E is terrible! Everything about the game is shit, whaa, whaa, whaa." You know? I think that is an extreme assessment, and also an unfair and inaccurate assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2022, 05:32:03 PM

2014 5e is a great game. 

It's kind of funny given the subject of the thread.  It traditionally takes Microsoft at least 3 iterations/expansions of a new feature to turn it into something worth using.  Apparently, it takes WotC about that many to turn it into something no longer worth it.

2014 is the same turgid game of today.

Don't any of you OSR fanatics complain about healing surges, encounter powers, purely beneficial races, multiclassing, munchkining or anything else you complain about 2e-4e, but defend in 5e because its core maths are worse then 1e and it lays out its data less clearly.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2022, 03:16:02 AM
What sucks the life out of a setting seems difficult to argue - but this last is is objectively backwards. Trinity came out in 1997, two years *before* Aberrant. I briefly got into Aberrant - I liked the concept, but the execution was terrible from the start. (My old pages are here.)

huh, you are correct. My copy of Trinity is one of the old Aeon books it looks like they had to cut up and rebind to sell due to that little TM issue. For me Trinity hit the shelves after Aberrant and Adventure..

And yeah Aberrant itself went downhill fairly fast too. WW was obsessed with its conspiracy theories and eeeeevil governments. Same with Trinity. It starts off ok. But halfway through the core book it starts downhill and never really stops.

Same for WW's Gamma World book. Its GW in name only and is really Nano World as its nano-tech and ideology wars taken to the nth degree. And it just gets bleaker with the expansion books. Still one of the best GM guidebooks though as it packed alot of advice and tips for GMs old and new to any RPG really. That it was in the hands slacker hacks like Baugh and Lizard dragged it down with the rest. Remember kids. The designers didnt write those rules "because the players will do it for us"...

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

Everyone will be equally special.  So now, no one will be special.  All flavors are now vanilla.

Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2022, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

2014 5e is a great game. 

The printings of the PHB that still cite the contributions of all those involved, are the best 5E D&D.

Quote from: Omega on February 04, 2022, 07:58:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2022, 03:16:02 AM
What sucks the life out of a setting seems difficult to argue - but this last is is objectively backwards. Trinity came out in 1997, two years *before* Aberrant. I briefly got into Aberrant - I liked the concept, but the execution was terrible from the start. (My old pages are here.)

huh, you are correct. My copy of Trinity is one of the old Aeon books it looks like they had to cut up and rebind to sell due to that little TM issue. For me Trinity hit the shelves after Aberrant and Adventure..

And yeah Aberrant itself went downhill fairly fast too. WW was obsessed with its conspiracy theories and eeeeevil governments. Same with Trinity. It starts off ok. But halfway through the core book it starts downhill and never really stops.

Same for WW's Gamma World book. Its GW in name only and is really Nano World as its nano-tech and ideology wars taken to the nth degree. And it just gets bleaker with the expansion books. Still one of the best GM guidebooks though as it packed alot of advice and tips for GMs old and new to any RPG really. That it was in the hands slacker hacks like Baugh and Lizard dragged it down with the rest. Remember kids. The designers didnt write those rules "because the players will do it for us"...

And the fandom when I interacted wasn't great either. I left a decade ago due to disillusionment with the edition wars. In the time since I have occasionally tried to interact with WoD fans, but these interactions have always gone sour once I shared my reservations and misgivings. At best they'll politely tell me they don't think the problems are problems because they're completely indoctrinated to think everything is hunky dory (especially the newbies who aren't aware of the history at all), and at worst they're insanely petty thin-skinned douchebags who will dissect my most polite explanation of my thoughts sentence by sentence in order to belittle me when they could just say "I have nothing nice to say to you." Every WoD apostate I talk to recounts how similar douchebaggery drove them out of the community.

Some nicer people I talked to are disillusioned with the direction of the IP and are open to discussion. I've been trying to convince them to just give up on the IP and make their own shit, but they're still irrationally loyal to the brand despite despising the direction it's going in. I'm frustrated by this because that IP is probably one of the single easiest that you could make substitutes for because of how utterly generic the premise is. "Cliques of vampires and other monsters compete in the modern day."

Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2022, 05:32:03 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2022, 02:17:02 PM
Greetings!

D&D 5E is a great game. It's very much influenced by OSR elements, and is flexible, fun, and accessible.

Fuck all the crybabies and negative nancy's. It's easy enough to go play something else.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yes. So flexible now all races will be the same. Culture doesn't matter in game or apparently out of game. Gender is fluid, and sex is irrelevant. Coming at ya in Nu-5e. Don't forget your X-cards!

heh - had to say it.

2014 5e is a great game. 

I'll actually give you that.

According to ICv2, D&D publisher WotC made over $1 billion in total sales in 2021, including $952M in tabletop games.

WotC is the first (and only) billion dollar publisher in tabletop RPGs, although much of this revenue will also be due to Magic the Gathering. It is responsible for a staggering 72% of Hasbro's total operating profit.

Interim CEO Rich Stoddart indicated that tabletop games grew 44% and accounted for 74% of the $1.3B sales for WotC in 2021. The division at Hasbro is 'Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming', so the remained came from the Digital Gaming side of things.

Quote from: Shasarak on February 04, 2022, 04:16:14 AM
...
We always have had other games that are not DnD.

At some stage you just have to face the facts that games like Vampire target a niche audience.

Who said they weren't niche?

Not the point I made.

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 12:08:26 PM
D&D as a brand has escape velocity. It transcends just TTRPG's and will always be the McDonalds of TTRPG's.
.

In my opinion D&D is making the same mistakes we have seen made by other beloved "geek IP".

WoW was the king of MMO's. Even got a movie...  Yet right now it is in the process of getting its ass kicked by the Final Fantasy MMO.

That being said - being the first mover in rpg land does give it certain entrenched advantages. It's theoretical replacement would be a recognizable clone in many ways. And the changes to the RPG hobby at that point would likely mean it would not be a "big" as D&D at it's respective peak. Which I am fine with.

But D&D's self-destruction will be a long process...

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 12:08:26 PM
I'm not blind to the fact that when it comes to TTRPG's that D&D is the sky all other TTRPG's lives under. What amazes me is the amount of clinging people do to this brand that has no reason to be on most people's main menu for consumption. ...

There are tons of settings and systems out there that can do "D&D Fantasy" better than D&D itself. At minimum that's what the OSR is there for, right? But I say why even stop there?

Exactly - which is why I like the talk I'm seeing from various places online about leaving the "D&D Brand" behind.

We just don't need it.

Quote from: tenbones on February 04, 2022, 12:08:26 PM
I'm glad D&D is going mainstream. I hope it goes so mainstream people start dressing like their characters, sing songs about it, open D&D themed restaurants, D&D Monopoly, D&D Nerf weapon, D&D Hip-Hop, whatever,  because it'll get oversaturated and run its natural course. And it appears it's on that trajectory.

IMHO this may be what the many in the hobby need to happen in order for them to begin to disengage from the one true game.

As the main "Brand" gets more twee and vapid, the more space is made in the Hobby for other games to grow.

We shouldn't even try to push back against WotC for what they are doing to D&D - Their course is set. Nothing we do will make a difference.

The thing we can do that makes a difference is to keep talking about, supporting, and in some cases; creating the alternatives ourselves.