One mostly for the Pundit I suspect, though anyone else with period knowledge please chip in.

Female PCs in Republican or Imperial Rome, how much freedom of action can they realistically have?

Upper class women my impression is almost none, highly circumscribed lives.  My impression though is Plebeian women may have had much more freedom, and slaves and foreigners of course could be many things, including such PCable professions as actresses or witches or whatever.

But anyway, female PCs, how much are they constrained by setting and how much does it vary by social class?

Female roman women of all classes enjoyed a great deal of freedoms in certain areas, and virtually none in others; but on the whole they wielded a surprising amount of power and often liberty.

What exact kind of examples are you thinking of?

RPGPundit

When preparing my Roman campaign, my feeling was that women characters could do quite a lot - the only problem was that they couldn't do it in a party with men characters. Three or four women can host an event and do a lot of politicking, and three or four men can wander down to the forum and schmooze around, but it's hard to imagine them all kicking around together on a day-to-day basis, the way PCs often do.

So if you had a mixed party, you'd have to think of how they could kick around together plausibly, or else be very good at switching between one bit of the party and another.

The exception would be a "court of the Emperor" sort of campaign, like I, Claudius. That'd be a lot of talk and not much action, though, you'd need unusual players for it.

Kyle's right that there did tend to be some serious separation in day-to-day activities between men and women.

Often the male PCs would be able to go places the women couldn't (the Senate springs to mind).

Of course, women might also be able to go to places where men can't, and create networks that the male PCs couldn't.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditKyle's right that there did tend to be some serious separation in day-to-day activities between men and women.

Often the male PCs would be able to go places the women couldn't (the Senate springs to mind).

Of course, women might also be able to go to places where men can't, and create networks that the male PCs couldn't.

RPGPundit

As a rule though I'd like any party not to be split all the time, occasionally sure but frequently gets tedious.

A mixed party of plebeians though might work, once we get to equestrians and above my impression is it would be scandalous for the women to hang around with the men.

Quote from: BalbinusAs a rule though I'd like any party not to be split all the time, occasionally sure but frequently gets tedious.

A mixed party of plebeians though might work, once we get to equestrians and above my impression is it would be scandalous for the women to hang around with the men.

I don't know how it would fit your campaign or group (or how realistic it is), but can the female PCs be slaves (at least in name)?  It seems like there were less restrictions on slaves accompanying their masters, and a lot of slaves seemed to have their masters' ear. Slaves would also be able to go places and learn things that others might not.

Also, I watched the last season of HBO's Rome, and I don't know how accurate it really tried to be, but didn't Pullo's girlfriend (the hot one) fight by his side and have a say in some of his war councils?  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnI don't know how it would fit your campaign or group (or how realistic it is), but can the female PCs be slaves (at least in name)?  It seems like there were less restrictions on slaves accompanying their masters, and a lot of slaves seemed to have their masters' ear. Slaves would also be able to go places and learn things that others might not.

Also, I watched the last season of HBO's Rome, and I don't know how accurate it really tried to be, but didn't Pullo's girlfriend (the hot one) fight by his side and have a say in some of his war councils?  

Pete

I don't have a campaign thought out yet, I'm just mulling ideas, but slaves could indeed work as could foreigners in occupations such as actress or entertainer.

I haven't seen Rome yet, the UK version was massively dumbed down with the BBC keeping all the sex scenes but taking out many of the scenes developing the plot and characters and I don't know if the UK dvd release is the same as that, so I'm waiting until I'm next in the States to buy it there.

Probably this Christmas, since I'm going skiing in Jackson Hole, where I shall also be buying cowboy boots all going well...

Quote from: BalbinusI don't have a campaign thought out yet, I'm just mulling ideas, but slaves could indeed work as could foreigners in occupations such as actress or entertainer.

I haven't seen Rome yet, the UK version was massively dumbed down with the BBC keeping all the sex scenes but taking out many of the scenes developing the plot and characters and I don't know if the UK dvd release is the same as that, so I'm waiting until I'm next in the States to buy it there.

Probably this Christmas, since I'm going skiing in Jackson Hole, where I shall also be buying cowboy boots all going well...

What about PC married couples? I've done that a couple of times.

-clash

On the question of married couples or plebeian families etc, it really wouldn't be a tremendous solution if historical accuracy is what you're after, because it appears that pretty well at all levels of society there was a sense of separation between the male and female domains. Men and women just didn't tend to "hang out" together, even husbands and wives, they had very different roles.

Female slaves might work in some occasions, but be more difficult in others. Female slaves were not secretaries or foremen or something like that; and there were places you didn't take your slaves with you to, much less a female slave!

As for the whole "pullo's girlfriend fighting" thing, its unclear just how often something like that might have happened in the criminal underclass. We know that there were women gladiators that fought in the arena, but it was also considered something of an oddity (a spectacle on about the same level as midget gladiators).

At the end of the day obviously certain necessities meant that women and men in the lower classes spent more time interacting with each other, just because they HAD to, than men and women of the upper classes. And its certainly possible that exceptional women would have been doing some of the things that men did in the sort of "adventuring" context.
Its just not very normal.

RPGPundit

Quote from: pspahnAlso, I watched the last season of HBO's Rome, and I don't know how accurate it really tried to be, but didn't Pullo's girlfriend (the hot one) fight by his side and have a say in some of his war councils?

Gaia was only responsible for things that happened within the walls of the colligium. The men didn't consult her for anything that happened with the outside world. I don't know if it IS accurate, but it makes sense since that's essentialy how it worked in the patrican families. I.e. Gaia was in charge of the whores in the same way that a patrican woman would be in charge of the house slaves.

There's scene in the first season where Octavian's mother is goading him to be more manly. She warns him that not learning how to fight will weaken his "anima." On the historian's commentary, it notes that this is a double insult because a man has an "animus" which he translated as 'free will' or 'self determination.' By calling Octavian's animus an anima, she was saying that he had the fighting spirit of a slave or a woman which is to say, none at all.

It's also aluded to in the scene where Pompey envies his slave's total lack of ambition which is again, caused by the lack of an animus, and also in the comic scenes when ever any women (aside from Gaia) fools about with weapons.

Back to the original subject. One possible avenue for patrican female power began after the 2nd century BC when a new form of marriage replaced the old married-for-life and husband-is-in-charge style of marriage. This so called "free marriage" allowed for what we would call no fault divorce, and kept the wife out of her husband's authority and squarely under the authority of her father. Later on, the wife's property rights were strengthened against her husband's to prevent her fathers wealth from being absorbed into her husbands. But an unintended result was that a wife could retain controll over her personal finances and thereby exert tremendous influence over a poorer husband and her children.

Such influence was essential to the power-hungry Roman woman since without a man acting on their behalf, women were limited to controling domestic affairs. A man on the other hand, could go places and make deals.

If I was forced to run a historical Roman RPG with male and female patrican characters, I'd basicaly run male and female venues as paralell universes.

Sorry - I wasn't very clear! How about each player playing a couple, troupe style?

-clash

I cover women in some detail in Roma. Yeah, I cheated a bit and advanced it for the setting but there was a definite divide in financial independance and the social view of male female relations.

If it would help balbinus, I can send you a copy of the PDF? Just send me an email with where you would like the PDF link sent. My email is bilbo at hinterwelt dot com.

BTW - I do think it will be very difficult to play a mixed group. Another suggestion would be to have any female characters play Lupae, prostitutes, which had slightly more social mobility (in the sense of moving amongst men). Still, as noted, there really is not a good solution here.

Good luck!

Bill

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat about PC married couples? I've done that a couple of times.

This is a solution that's been suggested for Pendragon as well.  A player creates two characters -- a questing knight, and the lady for whose attention he vies.  Keeping the two to the same player ensures that they maintain common goals; dividing the two between different players is more dynamic.

Some have referred to this style of play at the "Pokemon Knight".  The lady is actually the primary character who does all the thinking and roleplay, and her knight is the Pokemon she throws out on the playing field when a more physical response is warranted.

!i!