Quote from: The Yann Waters;689597Eh, that's nothing more than the same old "RPGs can be art too" stance which White Wolf has already held for over twenty years. It never stopped these same people from playing D&D as well.

It was never "can be".  It was "RPGs ARE art in our hands, because we are delicate unappreciated artistes... because we say we are! No backsies!"

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;690295It was never "can be".  It was "RPGs ARE art in our hands, because we are delicate unappreciated artistes... because we say we are! No backsies!"

I'm pretty sure that "RPGs can be art" was printed as the actual "mission statement" in White Wolf Magazine. And how the WoD core phrases it is "Storytelling can strive to be an art form". (Followed by "This might sound pretentious, but...")

Quote from: The Yann Waters;690306I'm pretty sure that "RPGs can be art" was printed as the actual "mission statement" in White Wolf Magazine. And how the WoD core phrases it is "Storytelling can strive to be an art form". (Followed by "This might sound pretentious, but...")

Again, though, they're not implying "maybe WW games are art", like you seem to be trying to claim they are.
They're very obviously saying "WW games ARE art, while D&D and other "unwashed masses" RPGs are NOT art, or are at best 'bad art' being done by bad people you are superior to if you play WW games".


That's the obvious and very fucking pretentious message throughout their whole history.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;690961Again, though, they're not implying "maybe WW games are art", like you seem to be trying to claim they are.
They're very obviously saying "WW games ARE art, while D&D and other "unwashed masses" RPGs are NOT art, or are at best 'bad art' being done by bad people you are superior to if you play WW games".

There's a difference between "maybe it's art" and "it may be art". The latter's what the GM advice is talking about: how under the right circumstances the actual play of WoD, and by extension other games with a presumed emphasis on drama, can become art. That doesn't, obviously, exclude D&D approached with a similar mindset.

What becomes art is up to social consensus. Society has pretty much universally decided that playing RPGs is not art.

I personally have never understood the need for legitimacy people have that leads them to posit make believe games as art in the first place.

Quote from: TristramEvans;691000What becomes art is up to social consensus. Society has pretty much universally decided that playing RPGs is not art.

That's not entirely the case in Northern Europe, though.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;691006That's not entirely the case in Northern Europe, though.

Oh groovy, funky northern Europe!

Quote from: The Yann Waters;688188The first chapter briefly describes how the game works, though, on page 22:

0_0

Umm... yeah... I figured out why RPGs aren't terribly popular.

Quote from: Piestrio;6910720_0

Umm... yeah... I figured out why RPGs aren't terribly popular.

Almost everything before that "Elements of Stylish Horror" section is fiction, mostly in the form of in-character documents. The book begins with an eight-page "investigation report", there's a page-long vignette at the beginning of each chapter, and the first chapter alternates between descriptions of what the World of Darkness is and more cited documents by characters who've encountered something weird. A reader who doesn't mind fiction in gaming books, or skips it altogether, shouldn't have trouble reaching the right spot soon enough.

Quote from: TristramEvans;691000I personally have never understood the need for legitimacy people have that leads them to posit make believe games as art in the first place.

The lack of any other discernible talents or skills and the total lack of the discipline to wish to engage in the kind of hard work required to develop such abilities.  Its easier to say "See this stupid thing I already do and that anyone can do really? When I AND ONLY I (and my ilk) do it, its ART!!!!!"

Its the refuge of the pretentious and incompetent.  Its one step down from that equally-abhorrent brand of "modern artist" that have no abilities whatsoever and replace that with taking a 5 gallon jar of baby urine and putting it on top of a church pew and calling that "art".
Those people are also worthless posers, but the RPG-as-artiste guys are like them but even less willing to do the absolute minimum of effort to deserve being self-styled "artistes".  They're the people who think that everyone else should recognize them as artists just because they "feel" like they are artists.


RPGPundit

Late to the parade but...

Fantasy Wargaming tops my list still. They have an attitude against D&D, RPG gamers, AND fantasy writers too. The book just rubbed me the wrong way from the dustcover on.

White Wolf gets my vote for piss ant sniping. The writers like to wander around and stir up trouble or badmouth TSR/WOTC. Why the hell WOTC had them do IP books for them is anyones guess.

Gahan Wilson in his Twilight Zone magazine review of Call of Cthulhu takes a minor shot at D&D.

Not sure which one but some published LARP had some offhanded comments on D&D in it. IFGS?

As for T&T. My copy of 5th ed just has a throwaway comment at the start about wanting a less complex and expensive RPG. Not so much snarking as probably just matter of fact statement of goal. This is fine by me. It is nice to know the reasoning behind a games creation and "I wanted something simpler and cheaper." is a valid reason to set out."

Hackmaster and especially Munchkin and Knights of the Dinner Table just bug me for some reason. Some times its hard to tell where poking fun at ends and sniping begins. I think Knights drifts too frequently to the snipe side for my tastes. Friend of mine loves the series and Hackmaster...

Torchbearer is though rapidly climbing up my dislike list. Everything I read about it just makes me dislike it and the designer a little more and a little more. This one may beat out Fantasy Wargaming at this rate if the designer cant learn to shut the hell up.

The designer for Road/Kill made a backhanded comment about Car Wars fans kitbashing Hot Wheels. Obviously his 10$ 15mm scale minis smaller than a thumbnail are sooooooo much better. KS campaign has failed twice now. Second time due to really poor set up rather than snark.

Probably more in my collection just forgotten or never noticed.

Torchbearer's author is well known for despising D&D, as well as GM-authority, and RPGs in general.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;691503Its the refuge of the pretentious and incompetent.  Its one step down from that equally-abhorrent brand of "modern artist" that have no abilities whatsoever and replace that with taking a 5 gallon jar of baby urine and putting it on top of a church pew and calling that "art".
Those people are also worthless posers.

Well said.