TheRPGSite

Greetings!

Well, hello again, my friends. In my other post, I mentioned my friend and I joined a "Adventure's League" thing at our local game store. Well, there's more to that story, I can tell ya! So, we have like, 8 people in the group, plus the DM. All of us our men. Well, technically 3 of the males are just teenage kids, but you know what I mean. So, 1 DM, young guy; and 8 guys playing. My buddy and I quickly break out our characters. He and I are both Humans. He rolled up a crazy strict Viking War Priest, and I rolled up a crazy strict, kinda lawful badass superstitious Human barbarian. Worships Wotan. A ancient barbarian Germanic god of War. Think of a mix of Attila the Hun, the giant furry Germanic barbarian in Gladiator waving an axe and shouting at the whole Roman Army, just yards away from him, and Conan. That's how I quickly sketched out my character's personality. So, we have all our gear, and we're ready for anything.

The rest of the party? NOT ONE OF THEM WAS HUMAN. Not one other of them was a cleric. Not one of them was a rogue. What did we have? Yeah, no Halflings, no good Dwarves even. No ELF Rangers to kick ass with bow. Nope. None of that.

We had:

(1): Dragonborn Paladin/Warlock M
(2): Tiefling Necromancer M
(3): Air Genasi Mage M (Mage was some kind of specialist, he levitated and blew wind, and danced on his floating disc. That was about all this guy did. and shoot magic missile.)
(4): Firbolg Barbarian M
(5): Kobold Bard M
(6): Tiefling Assassin M

(7): Human Barbarian M (me)
(8): Human Cleric M (My friend)

I kid you not--three of the other players asked both of us, saying "WHAT? You're just a Human?!" That got passed around to the rest of the group with looks of bewilderment and amusement.

We were playing for a few weeks, and my buddy says to me, "All these kids wanna play weird monster superheroes that "use dark powers for good" of course, none of our group were really good, regardless of what their character sheets said. The DM said our group excpet for us two was a bunch of murderhobo freaks. LOL. Yeah, in the following weeks, we met some NPC's and tried to save them, and befriend them. Three different NPC's. Two men, 1 woman. All of them were murdered within an hour of us meeting them.

The kid playing the dragonborn paladin took a level of Warlock. I asked him why did he do that? Again, no joke--he says to me, "I wanna use dark powers for good. I can use Eldritch Blast at range and not worry about ammo for my crossbow! I can also talk to evil powers!"

I looked at my buddy, incredulously, and we both said at the same time, "I WANNA USE DARK POWERS FOR GOOD!" My god we were rolling with laughter. I couldn't believe this kid multi-classing into Warlock as a Paladin! Later, my buddy says to me, "I don't think this kid really knows what Warlocks really do. He doesn't know what Paladins are supposed to do. A paladin multi classing into Warlock? Give me a break!"

My friend and I went on discussing...what the hell happened to our hobby? Friends and family we have played with for years--all played heroic Fighters, wise Wizards, kick ass Clerics, righteous Paladins reflecting Templars and heroic, chivalrous Knights like Lancelot and Galahad. Even Rangers or whatnot flavoured with John Wayne, heroes from the Bible, Sampson, David, among others; Conan, of course. Robin Hood, Solomon Kane, Beowulf, William Wallace, ala Braveheart. Friar John. Pious holy men. Like angry shepherds of God, yelling at you at the gates of Sodom or something. Crazy fun stuff. Achilles before the gates of Troy. Or Odysseus. Heroic Gunnery sergeants that charged hordes of Japanese soldiers in Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima. John Basilone, of Guadalcanal fame. MacGregor from Rob Roy. Maximus from Gladiator. Valiant Germanic Barbarian Women. Mysterious Celtic Druid women. Old, grizzled Roman Centurions standing alone, facing the oncoming barbarians. And Lord of the Rings, too. I don't know. Heroic Characters. Characters that stood for something. Characters that wanted to be heroic, and defeat evil, not try and be as close to evil as possible. Not characters that slaughtered innocent human characters that might have become allies--no, just stab them in the throat, and murder them because they "pissed me off."

In our group here, as we have played over weeks...none of the heroic inspiration for characters I mentioned. No heroic, honorable motivations. Just slaughter everyone, and laugh at how they die, and fuck all if some dumb ass just killed an important guide that can trnaslate hyroglyphics on the temple walls that no one else in the party knows. Just hurry along, laugh it up. Fuck everyone we find along the way. Don't bother trying to detect traps or disamr them, nah, just charge right the fuck into the spiked pits and shooting spike walls. Oh, and the wizard? He has dancing skills. Or spells that make you laugh. Or something. He doesn't believe in learning fireball. And the Necromancer? He wants to sit on the sidelines eating apples, and searching the dead bodies, while the rest of us fight and struggle. The Necromancer talks about torturing some brightly coloured frog people we met, which I successfully Intimidated them, and then gave them my word of honor that we wanted their help, and we would spare them. This stupid feminine goth-fucker Necromancer starts telling the frog people how he's going to torture them to death.

Meanwhile, while some of these wonderful "murderhobo's" kill valuable NPC allies--does the rest of the group say, "Hey, WTF?" Nope. They just giggle and laugh at them while they get stomped. I and my friend put our foot down about the colored frog people. I told the stupid Necromancer, "Touch the frog people I gave my word to, and I will gut you like a fish. You feel me?"

Sigh. Well, you see what I'm saying though? These newer players...they have no sense of heroism, of archetype, of heroic glory, inspired by history and myth. No sense of Honor, Dignitas. The ancient Romans believed in Dignitas. The Romans believed in fighting for the Light of Rome, defending the Empire from savage barbarians.The ancient Greeks believed it was important to be heroic, to honor the gods and to bring glory to their name. It's all just a murderous gore fest of laughing, rape and mayhem.

What is up with the Freak Trains that like being evil, and the supposedly "good" characters just standing by, laughing stupidly? No one knows how to play wizards right, supporting the team with buffs and protection. No one believes in scouting properly--just charge in, and fuck it. No one believes in roleplaying, in negotiating, and trying to win allies. Fuck it. Just slaughter them and rape them. Gotta get every copper from them! No one believes in discipline, working as a team, coordinating together. No, just giggle and fuck off with stupid stunts designed to get attention and say "Look how cool and badass I am!"

I appreciate your considered thoughts, my friends!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Were they having fun? If so, none of the rest should really matter all that much.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1059120Were they having fun? If so, none of the rest should really matter all that much.

No, I think that the Players behavior is questionable in regards to the Adventurers League's own rules. Regardless, it sounds like a fucked up group with a DM who doesn't want consequences for the PCs actions.

Quote from: jeff37923;1059123No, I think that the Players behavior is questionable in regards to the Adventurers League's own rules. Regardless, it sounds like a fucked up group with a DM who doesn't want consequences for the PCs actions.

Yes. Agree.

Quote from: jeff37923;1059123No, I think that the Players behavior is questionable in regards to the Adventurers League's own rules. Regardless, it sounds like a fucked up group with a DM who doesn't want consequences for the PCs actions.

It organized play, there are limits to the referee's authority that one agrees to before adjudicating an official AL event. It neither a bad or good thing but a consequence of what happens when you run a multi-player campaign organized to be run in multiple geographical location at once. And since AL sessions are open tables that mean who is playing can be a random assortment of folks from week to week. If you don't like those compromises then don't play Adventurer's League.

Personally I don't give a shit one way or another. From time to time I will participate in organized play events at convention (rarely at the game store) for something to do if nothing better is available. I control how I role-play. I Irregardless what the composition of the table, I will be speaking in 1st person, I will be doing the funny voices. And I am smart enough and experience to gauge how far to push it given the temperament of the table. I am not out to prove a point or ruin somebody's good time. Most of the time it is appreciated. A few time there one or two players are classic example of Queen Victoria's "not amused". And a few times players find my roleplaying very enjoyable. One guy fell to the floor with laughter over how I roleplayed.

Quote from: SHARK;1059119What is up with the Freak Trains that like being evil, and the supposedly "good" characters just standing by, laughing stupidly? No one knows how to play wizards right, supporting the team with buffs and protection. No one believes in scouting properly--just charge in, and fuck it. No one believes in roleplaying, in negotiating, and trying to win allies. Fuck it. Just slaughter them and rape them. Gotta get every copper from them! No one believes in discipline, working as a team, coordinating together. No, just giggle and fuck off with stupid stunts designed to get attention and say "Look how cool and badass I am!"

I personally have disliked the organized play / Adventurer's League the few times that I've tried it. These sorts of players have always been around - just glancing at my old Knights of the Dinner Table comics gives me plenty of mockery of them. I don't know if they're becoming more common - it seems hard to tell. It's taking the game as a casual, mostly-mindless way to blow off steam rather than something to engage in and think about.

I'd look for other groups / venues if that's not your cup of tea.

Quote from: jhkim;1059152I don't know if they're becoming more common - it seems hard to tell. It's taking the game as a casual, mostly-mindless way to blow off steam rather than something to engage in and think about.

Well, it is a game. Maybe they are playing it for fun.

See, I'm of two minds here. I don't think that being a muderhobo is a bad thing because it is a stage that we all have gone through and sometimes you don't want to deal with metaplot or dramatics - you just want to kill some orcs. I also don't think that the Adventurer's League code of conduct allows for murderhobo PCs and that the Adventurer's League is a moron magnet (when you are so adamant about being inclusive, genuinely asshole Players tend to stay longer than they should).

Honestly SHARK, I'd suggest that you start your own game group and show these young fucks how its done.

My favorite D&D 5e is Basic Rules 5e.

Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling

Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue

Though its difficult to find players who will accept these "limitations".

Meh. Sometimes people act like twerps in RPGs because there are no serious real world concequences. And there is a kind of perverse fun in kicking over every apple cart.

Find another group?

Quote from: SHARK;1059119In my other post, I mentioned my friend and I joined a "Adventure's League" thing at our local game store. Well, there's more to that story, I can tell ya! So, we have like, 8 people in the group, plus the DM. All of us our men. Well, technically 3 of the males are just teenage kids, but you know what I mean. So, 1 DM, young guy; and 8 guys playing.

A legal AL table can only have three to seven players (not counting the DM). So you've already lost your lawful alignment; no old school paladin status for you.

QuoteThe rest of the party? NOT ONE OF THEM WAS HUMAN. Not one other of them was a cleric. Not one of them was a rogue. What did we have? Yeah, no Halflings, no good Dwarves even. No ELF Rangers to kick ass with bow. Nope. None of that.

We had:

(1): Dragonborn Paladin/Warlock M
(2): Tiefling Necromancer M
(3): Air Genasi Mage M (Mage was some kind of specialist, he levitated and blew wind, and danced on his floating disc. That was about all this guy did. and shoot magic missile.)
(4): Firbolg Barbarian M
(5): Kobold Bard M
(6): Tiefling Assassin M

(7): Human Barbarian M (me)
(8): Human Cleric M (My friend)

For people who are human in real life, I can see the attraction of playing non-humans. There does seem to have been a trend toward exotic races from non-PHB sources, but I still meet a fair number of humans.

QuoteMeanwhile, while some of these wonderful "murderhobo's" kill valuable NPC allies--does the rest of the group say, "Hey, WTF?" Nope. They just giggle and laugh at them while they get stomped. I and my friend put our foot down about the colored frog people. I told the stupid Necromancer, "Touch the frog people I gave my word to, and I will gut you like a fish. You feel me?"

Sounds like good roleplaying, assuming the DM didn't jump in on either side. Actually gutting another player character would violate AL rules, though.

Sounds like the table is a little munchkin heavy; I played for a while at a game store with young players who were far worse. They were peeved with me when I insisted that we could not loot the grave we found, magic item notwithstanding, because my wizard would not countenance such disrespect; but it stuck, so it's not hopeless. I later joined a table at another store with more consistent and mature membership, and we've completed four of the campaign books since.

This isn't anything new.  I encountered this a lot when running games in University back in the early aughts.  Doesn't matter the edition either.

Quote from: rawma;1059178A legal AL table can only have three to seven players (not counting the DM). So you've already lost your lawful alignment; no old school paladin status for you.



For people who are human in real life, I can see the attraction of playing non-humans. There does seem to have been a trend toward exotic races from non-PHB sources, but I still meet a fair number of humans.



Sounds like good roleplaying, assuming the DM didn't jump in on either side. Actually gutting another player character would violate AL rules, though.

Sounds like the table is a little munchkin heavy; I played for a while at a game store with young players who were far worse. They were peeved with me when I insisted that we could not loot the grave we found, magic item notwithstanding, because my wizard would not countenance such disrespect; but it stuck, so it's not hopeless. I later joined a table at another store with more consistent and mature membership, and we've completed four of the campaign books since.

Greetings!

Yeah, the DM mentioned that the rules declared a 7 player limit. He was trying to be accomodating though. The Kobold Bard is a regular Adventure League DM, so he was kind of acting as an "Assistant DM" as a knowledge resource. His Bard was several levels above the rest of us, too. *shrugg*

Indeed, there have been episodes of good role playing in the game. However, it has been annoying when some of the players have just up and jumped and killed some allied NPC when the rest of us may have benefitted greatly from their help, and the group's mission better served and advanced, you know? That's another dimesnion of the Adventure League rules, or the DM style--maybe some of both--that is frustrating. There are oftentimes *HUGE* chasms which may easily lead to problems in the group interacting together. Alignment of course is an important distinction. Classes, another source of friction. or should be. Paladins taking levels as Warlock? WTF? Then, we have Factions. We are members of the Emerald Happy Party, and one or two other members are Zhentarim Evil Exploit the fuck outta nature folks. The DM told us, yes, these organizations are naturally violently opposed to each other...but this is Adventure League, so we have to just ignore that. Then, there are cultural and racial tensions. My character, and my friends, we're both human barbarian people. And there's a Tiefling Necromancer in the group. Yeah, that goes over well with superstitious tribal people that naturally believe demonic creatures are evil and should be burned alive.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, you remember those RPGA fucksticks from back in the day? ... yeah, that, turned up to eleven. Now with Nanny rules to prevent social consequences.

So all of their fuckstick rage is sublimated into murdering all NPCs that move, because nothing about setting remotely matters anymore, other than glomming on new ability cards onto your PC deck. :) And now you know! Go Joe! :p

Quote from: jeff37923;1059123No, I think that the Players behavior is questionable in regards to the Adventurers League's own rules. Regardless, it sounds like a fucked up group with a DM who doesn't want consequences for the PCs actions.

Greetings!

Excellent point, Jeff. My buddy mentioned to me, saying

"How can these morons act like this? They hurt the party's mission; their characters do things that are blatantly chaotic and evil; these morons do things often that are morally offensive and provocative--and of course, by the house rules, we can't socially correct these people *in character* or out-of-character; thus, it falls on the DM to correct them, or otherwise bring to their attention how needlessly abrasive their character's behavior is--and yet, does he bother to do any of this? NOPE. He just sits there and laughs right along with them."

That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059191So, you remember those RPGA fucksticks from back in the day? ... yeah, that, turned up to eleven. Now with Nanny rules to prevent social consequences.

So all of their fuckstick rage is sublimated into murdering all NPCs that move, because nothing about setting remotely matters anymore, other than glomming on new ability cards onto your PC deck. :) And now you know! Go Joe! :p

Greetings!

Damn Straight, Opaopajr. These raging fucksticks--that made me laugh, too!--where do they get all of this rage from? Why are these fucksticks so angry? Beyond that, why do they believe it is acceptable behavior--in a social group ostensibly trying to accomplish a mission--to act as moronically evil, stupid, and anti-socially as possible?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It sounds to me like they want to play Palladium's Nightspawn (renamed to Nightbane) game.

The OP's collection of "non-human freaks and wanting to use dark powers for good" sounds like every Star Wars group I've seen since 2005. At least they kept the heroism though.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059191So, you remember those RPGA fucksticks from back in the day? ... yeah, that, turned up to eleven. Now with Nanny rules to prevent social consequences.

So all of their fuckstick rage is sublimated into murdering all NPCs that move, because nothing about setting remotely matters anymore, other than glomming on new ability cards onto your PC deck. :) And now you know! Go Joe! :p

From SHARK's posts, they don't appear to be angry; they're laughing and having a good time. From the AL point of view, the DM should be stopping this (the players are all supposed to be cooperating, even with differing factions and alignments).

I think there have been issues with AL. Originally, through maybe season 5 (Storm King's Thunder), the DM had no discretion to award XP for things outside of combat; we worked around this by a generous interpretation of defeating an opponent, or by rewarding role-playing with subsequent easier fights that would generate more XP. Beyond XP, in most cases, players are more likely to get magic items or treasure by looting defeated opponents, so players have incentive to pursue combat effectiveness. I would have been much happier with AL modules if story awards, especially where granted by NPC choice rather than successful combat, had been more significant than loot. Most of the prepared material does not provide for players to fail from a lack of non-combat actions or abilities, but insufficient combat ability may prevent the party's success, so another incentive to improve combat effectiveness. But, organized play or not, any RPG (as opposed to war games) really depends on the cooperation of the people at the table.

Note also that, for good or ill, AL has changed significantly with this season. XP is no longer calculated, but follows from the number of hours of play and from completing the adventure objectives. Treasure points are awarded at the same rate, so murderhobos get no additional treasure. Magic items are available to any character to buy with treasure points; each season has a list of magic items available automatically, and characters can get access to other items as a result of adventures. I have mixed feelings about these changes (e.g., wizards now have a hard time accumulating additional spells, since they have to spend treasure points on the cost of copying spells to their spell books), but I think they are intended to promote role-playing and probably achieve at least some of that. (I may be off on some of the details, which have changed since the original announcement; I've depended on other DMs I play with to track the specifics for our games, and only just started running for the first time last week.)

In eight hours of play of the 2018 D&D Open at a recent convention, we rolled initiative maybe two or three times, and the player characters did not kill any opponents. I've started running Dragon Heist, which is a similar style of adventure, for a small table; it lays out the Code Legal with crimes and penalties listed, and it's for lower level characters, so it's less murderhobo friendly. The other campaign book coming out soon sounds more like dungeon crawl territory, though.

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Some possible solutions for SHARK to consider:

• try talking to the DM alone about the issues (pointing out that this is not being run according to AL rules)
• try talking to the players at the start of the session, to get them on board with the idea of completing the adventure objectives and maybe role-playing
• play at a different table  (I'm guessing there's only one table running in this store, though)
• talk to the game store about the situation, or to an AL organizer, to support either of the following two goals:

[LIST=A]

• having them talk to the DM about remedying the situation
• getting another table going, being the DM if necessary (it would be helpful if the store or AL organizer could supply AL-approved modules for whoever is the DM) (since the existing table is too large, splitting it seems appropriate)

• start a table of retro D&D running a version you like
• play somewhere else

Or you can just complain in online forums about the situation.

Quote from: SHARK;1059211"How can these morons act like this? They hurt the party's mission; their characters do things that are blatantly chaotic and evil; these morons do things often that are morally offensive and provocative--and of course, by the house rules, we can't socially correct these people *in character* or out-of-character; thus, it falls on the DM to correct them, or otherwise bring to their attention how needlessly abrasive their character's behavior is--and yet, does he bother to do any of this? NOPE. He just sits there and laughs right along with them."

That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Yeah, it's an environment calculated to enable horrible behavior in a world that doesn't even react. I too would want both PCs and NPCs to react to murderous PC behavior. Basically they are villains with meta-protection from the house rules and from the DM. Seems like sick nonsense to me.

And I say this as someone who has run campaigns designed to feature murderous PCs... but never by preventing sane non-murderous PCs from reacting freely to them, and not by protecting them from appropriate reactions from NPCs.

Quote from: SHARK;1059211That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Sorry, you lost me there.

This is a game played for entertainment. There's no moral imperative that people be punished for evil done in game. Sometimes it can be fun to just drink some beer and kill things, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not usually my cup of tea, but I'm not going to judge people for what their characters do.

Quote from: jhkim;1059294Sorry, you lost me there.

This is a game played for entertainment. There's no moral imperative that people be punished for evil done in game. Sometimes it can be fun to just drink some beer and kill things, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not usually my cup of tea, but I'm not going to judge people for what their characters do.

He's talking about the PCs not experiencing in-world consequences for what their PCs do. Basically getting to play Murderworld. I think it's a reasonable complaint.

Quote from: rawma;1059268I think there have been issues with AL. Originally, through maybe season 5 (Storm King's Thunder), the DM had no discretion to award XP for things outside of combat;

It was Season 7 that this reared it's ugly head.  The amount of NOTHING that happens in between the 'dungeons' of Tomb of Annihilation meant no one got XP without Curse of Strahd style encounter padding as every 1/4 mile hex HAD to have some sort of combat encounter, otherwise no one would have gotten past level 5 by the end of the book.  And players were meant to start at level 3.

Quote from: Skarg;1059281Yeah, it's an environment calculated to enable horrible behavior in a world that doesn't even react. I too would want both PCs and NPCs to react to murderous PC behavior. Basically they are villains with meta-protection from the house rules and from the DM. Seems like sick nonsense to me.

And I say this as someone who has run campaigns designed to feature murderous PCs... but never by preventing sane non-murderous PCs from reacting freely to them, and not by protecting them from appropriate reactions from NPCs.

Greetings!

Damn, Skarg! Right on, brother! You nailed it exactly. There's organizational *policy* or *philosophy* that insidiously or actually overtly reaches into the game world environment and dictates what people--the characters--can and cannot do.

Here is one scenario:

The group has been traveling through the jungles of Chult. We discover a wrecked Hulruaan Flying Ship, being overrun by savage ape-creatures. We hear humans screaming as they are being ripped apart and eaten. We quickly make our way up through these huge trees, and onto the deck of the Halruaan ship, and proceed to engage the savage ape-creatures. We defeat the evil ape-creatures, and start to search the ship, for treasure, equipment, or survivors. Deeper inside the ship, we find two survivors--an older, bearded man that is wounded, and an attractive woman, obviously frightened, demoralised and in despair. Both humans are ragged and dirty in appeance though, looking awful. I persuaded the two humans to trust us, and come out of their hiding. My character told them, "Fear not, Woman. We are here to help you! The evil beasts have been slain! Come up with us, and we may help you." We get the woman and man up out on the deck, and begin asking them a few questions. My friend, the party's only Cleric, manages to heal the older man, unfortunately only to 1 HP. Still, the older man is now stabilized, safe, and not bleeding to death. My character hands the woman a skin of water, and begins to befriend the woman, as the older man rests, also eating slowly and drinking some fresh, cold water.

One of the other party members was trying to hunt by shooting a boar or something with his bow. He sought to climb down one of the land ropes hanging from the ship, caught high up in these giant trees. The character is weak and clumsy, and fucked up and fell to the bottom, damn near dying. Geesus. Another player manages to climb down and tie the rope to the wounded moron, in hopes of pulling him back up to the ship, where the rest of the party is. My character, a Barbarian Human, happens to be the strongest member of the party, with a 20 Strength, so, they yell for me to help them, because they can't pull numbnuts back up to the ship. So, I politely excuse myself from trying to help the woman, and learn more about them, and go over to help my idiot party member. The party cleric goes with me, because he's large and strong as well, to lend a hand to save numbnuts. The DM tells us we can hear savage growling coming from the jungle below, and movement through the foliage. Great, something evil and hungry is going to soon pounce on numbnuts down there and eat him. We pull Numbnuts up from below, and save him from being eaten. Our Cleric uses I think his last healing spell to help the member that fell off the ship.

We get back over to the two humans, looking forward to learning all we can. In truth, we have been traveling for months in the wilderness, and seldom meet anyone or anything that is friendly. No towns, few supplies, no resources of civilization, so in truth, there are many ways that we, as a party, need help as well. Knowledge, counsel, supplies, good intel of the land and what's going on, local resources, all kinds of things. So, a friendly person willing to help us and be our ally is a much, much needed asset.

We arrive back, to see the fucking Tiefling standing behind the old bearded man, enjoying his food. The Tiefling proceeds to cut the older man's throat from behind, killing him instantly. The woman screams, and the Tiefling siezes her, and swiftly plunges his shortsword into her belly, several times, in and out in a savage blur. The woman collapses, blood gushing from her belly, and she dies. The Tiefling laughs maniacally in triumph. (The Tiefling player, smiles proudly at the table, and says emphatically, "I'm an Assassin, Bro. It's what I do. I enjoy killing people." He then laughs smugly.

My character wanted to run the fucker through with my Greatsword right there, on the spot. Of course, we can't do that. I sat there with my mouth open in shock. My friend, the party Cleric, he just looked at me grimly. I could see his whole face tighten in rage. He was pissed as all fuck. I just looked at the fucking Tiefling's player, and told him "I can't believe you just fucking did that. Fucking unbelievable."

The rest of the party didn't do anything to stop the Tiefling or seek to intervene in any way. In fact, they just giggled themselves, smiling and approving the Tiefling. The DM was even smiling.

My friend didn't find this episode *funny* in any way. I didn't think it was *funny* either. I was also disgusted at what the party just lost, meta-game info wise, all because the Tiefling is a fucking evil fuckstick. IN CHARACTER, my character was very angry for us losing a potential friends and allies, but also because I, and the cleric, made the woman trust us and have faith in us that we were here to help them and befriend them. Being betrayed like that, IN GAME, being shamed like that, IN GAME, being made to look like an evil, dishonorable savage IN GAME is not going to go over well with at least two human barbarians that pride themselves on a harsh code of honor, and is firmly committed against evil.

As a PLAYER, out of character, this was not fun. It was not enjoyable feeling like the party's goals in pursuing our mission--for many weeks now--is so often fucked in the ass by jackass behavior and actions done by fucking morons like the Tiefling. The Party suffered a huge loss in knowledge here--but also in Honor and Dignitas--that actually could have helped us greatly in our missions--sadly, however, the rest of the party is blissfully unaware or unconscious of this entirely, and doesn't give a damn anyways. They just laugh and giggle stupidly.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Dude, drop out of that AL group or lose your sanity.

After reading that, I'm pretty sure that the assholes in AL are getting their jollies at you and your friend's expense. Fuck them, don't let them get away with it. Drop out of the group.

EDIT: Or if you feel like some payback, engage in a Total Party Kill before exiting.

I agree with jeff37923 - it sounds like you should just drop out and not play with these guys. It sounds like there's no common ground for you to have fun with them.

What I disagree with is the idea that there is some sort of objective, real-world moral wrong just for playing stupid evil. It's possible that these players really are assholes in real life, but what makes them assholes isn't what their characters do. I've had various play of casual games where the PCs were poor-impulse-control psychos, from Paranoia to Fiasco and other games. I've had fun getting my character shot in the head by another player for no good reason.

The thing to do is to step out of game and say "I'm not having fun with this" and explain what you're looking for and what you don't like. I suspect that there's no common ground, but if so, just talk about it out-of-game and drop out. Don't burst a blood vessel fuming about what happens in the game.

OK, that example (party tiefling assassin murdering helpless Halruaa victims you have saved on an airship for no benefit and active hurt to the party) is technically AL ILLEGAL. You are allowed Lawful Evil only among two factions, and ALL players are barred from Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil. If at any time a PC's actions shift into these banned alingments their PCs are turned into NPCs and no longer legal for AL play.

Here is where the nanny rules come in: you could have called on the GM to call that table griefing, to have that retconned, AND have that player get a warning. If not, you could call  AL regional reps to complain and possibly have that GM written up. The GM is perfectly within his right to even shift PC alignment and make that homicidal tiefling assassin an illegal alignment and thus an illegal AL PC. Unfortunately the nanny rules prevents intra-party "discipline," which quickly devolves into griefing vendettas in practice.

Now, in practice... a lot of that shit is being metagamed by fucksticks in all levels of Org Play, in every form throughout the known universe for all types of RPG games. You are merely the odd ones out in an insular trollolol club, and are being hazed into initiation of their sublimated (sexually frustrated?) rage. Do you want to relive adolesence, or move on with your life?

If you must stay there a few sessions more, don't really help the party, find out who's socially cool, (or at least sane,) and try to poach them for a home game you will start up later. :)

Another issue here is the MINMAX mentality, which is a big factor in humans not being so common. Nowadays, a league player types in "what's the best XXXX" into Google, reads a few threads, and just follows that. It wouldn't surprise me to see an AL table with multiple characters who are clones of each other, right down to equipment.

But you're not going to get role playing there, just maximum DPS or whatever.

Another issue is teenage boys frequently just really enjoy being shitheads.

QuoteAnother issue here is the MINMAX mentality, which is a big factor in humans not being so common.

What's funny +1 to all is so good I have hard time not picking human. 16/16/14/12/10/9 is such a good starting array. Really depends on how the table is run, I guess. 14/14/14/14/13/12  is also way better than the dumb internet subcultures understand.

1. Playing AL

2. Not expecting a complete shitshow

Organized play is for people who lack friends. Most of reasons someone lacks friends are unflattering.

While I disagree about including non-human characters. I say leave the group as the players seem to lack the maturity imo to play a serious game. I can tell you Paladin or no if any PC did that as a player or DM...the first I would kill or try to restrain the pc. As a DM any town they were in depending on how popular the npc killed off was the pc(s) would be in big trouble.

Stuff like this is why I avoid stuff like Adventurers League and Pathfinder Society like the plague.

SHARK, I am sorry about your awful group experiences and honestly, even though I am a relatively young man (I'm twenty-five) I also sort of get pissed at the munchkins and murder-hobos such as the ones you mentioned in your group.

Now, don't get me wrong, they've been a part of the hobby since the beginning but now it seems more prevalent than ever. Especially when combined with special snowflake race-and-class combos and edgelord character concepts that just don't make sense.

I mean, we've all been there at one point when we were younger. My first D&D character I ever played was a brooding Neutral Evil Drow working with the good guys for sake of convenience (Hey, I was thirteen at the time!) but now that I have grown older, I realize that the classic old-school way is often the better and more enjoyable way, at least for me.

Stuff like heroism and fighting for honor and glory, and as I grow older, the more I realize that it's more fun and often more interesting to play a heroic Human than a fancy Dragonborn or Tiefling. Nowadays nearly all my characters are Human (though I may occasionally be tempted to play a Half-Elf)

Overall, I really dig the old-school style of the 1970's and 1980's. Sometimes I may add a few new tweaks such as some mild anime influences or a "gonzo" setting with some sci-fi or post-apocalyptic overtones, but more and more I try to keep it Old-School.

Quote from: SHARK;1059302... We arrive back, to see the fucking Tiefling standing behind the old bearded man, enjoying his food. The Tiefling proceeds to cut the older man's throat from behind, killing him instantly. The woman screams, and the Tiefling siezes her, and swiftly plunges his shortsword into her belly, several times, in and out in a savage blur. The woman collapses, blood gushing from her belly, and she dies. The Tiefling laughs maniacally in triumph. (The Tiefling player, smiles proudly at the table, and says emphatically, "I'm an Assassin, Bro. It's what I do. I enjoy killing people." He then laughs smugly.

My character wanted to run the fucker through with my Greatsword right there, on the spot. Of course, we can't do that. I sat there with my mouth open in shock. My friend, the party Cleric, he just looked at me grimly. I could see his whole face tighten in rage. He was pissed as all fuck. I just looked at the fucking Tiefling's player, and told him "I can't believe you just fucking did that. Fucking unbelievable."

The rest of the party didn't do anything to stop the Tiefling or seek to intervene in any way. In fact, they just giggled themselves, smiling and approving the Tiefling. The DM was even smiling. ...

Wow, and there it is.

To me that sounds like time to say, "Here's what I do..." and try to kill the Tiefling.

AL rules may say a PC can't attack another PC, but if, as others mentioned, PCs can't do what the Tiefling did, the Tiefling is now an NPC or player-adversary, and fair game. If the DM resists, I'd say my character becomes an adversary and/or NPCs if need be, but what he'd do is attack the Tiefling.

In any case, getting away from playing with those players and that DM seem like the thing to do, to me. Sounds like the DM should be reported to the AL people, too.

Quote from: Skarg;1059389Wow, and there it is.

To me that sounds like time to say, "Here's what I do..." and try to kill the Tiefling.

AL rules may say a PC can't attack another PC, but if, as others mentioned, PCs can't do what the Tiefling did, the Tiefling is now an NPC or player-adversary, and fair game. If the DM resists, I'd say my character becomes an adversary and/or NPCs if need be, but what he'd do is attack the Tiefling.

For my brother's Pathfinder campaign, I made up a Githyanki Assassin, out of the desire to play an "evil" PC "right". I play him as a kind of Garak from DS9 character. My character is evil, and will kill people, but not in such a childish way as simply stabbing everyone in sight. I play him smart, amoral, but with the knowledge that if he honks people off, they're going to try and kill him.

I'm not a fan of the GM playing escalation, but it sounds like that AL group could use a dose of concequences for their characters.
But, as I said from the beginning, it's probably best to just find a group that doesn't suck.

If I was the DM, one of those NPC's would turn out to be an Ancient Silver Dragon in disguise!!!

Those overly dickish players need to be taught a lesson.

Quote from: SHARK;1059211Greetings!

Excellent point, Jeff. My buddy mentioned to me, saying

"How can these morons act like this? They hurt the party's mission; their characters do things that are blatantly chaotic and evil; these morons do things often that are morally offensive and provocative--and of course, by the house rules, we can't socially correct these people *in character* or out-of-character; thus, it falls on the DM to correct them, or otherwise bring to their attention how needlessly abrasive their character's behavior is--and yet, does he bother to do any of this? NOPE. He just sits there and laughs right along with them."

That does bother me, philosophically. Life has consequences--and yet, many of these players can literally do whatever they want--no matter how evil, no matter how dishonourable--and we cannot say anything or do anything to correct them, to show them how what they have done is wrong. Or, just outright punish them for being idiots. They can do whatever they want, and don't have to experience any consequences for their behavior--from us, or the DM.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

If I could not say anything, then I would have to leave.

Quote from: SHARK;1059212Greetings!

Damn Straight, Opaopajr. These raging fucksticks--that made me laugh, too!--where do they get all of this rage from? Why are these fucksticks so angry? Beyond that, why do they believe it is acceptable behavior--in a social group ostensibly trying to accomplish a mission--to act as moronically evil, stupid, and anti-socially as possible?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Because this is how people behave when there is no attempt to teach any types of morals or ethics during childhood.

Quote from: SHARK;1059302We arrive back, to see the fucking Tiefling standing behind the old bearded man, enjoying his food. The Tiefling proceeds to cut the older man's throat from behind, killing him instantly. The woman screams, and the Tiefling siezes her, and swiftly plunges his shortsword into her belly, several times, in and out in a savage blur. The woman collapses, blood gushing from her belly, and she dies. The Tiefling laughs maniacally in triumph. (The Tiefling player, smiles proudly at the table, and says emphatically, "I'm an Assassin, Bro. It's what I do. I enjoy killing people." He then laughs smugly.

That was IMO the time to walk. Others will disagree with me, but that guy is real world evil, not just in game evil. I won't game with people like that.

Just go find another group or start your own game. There's two of you, so surely you can find one more and then grow from there.

Quote from: Razor 007;1059393If I was the DM, one of those NPC's would turn out to be an Ancient Silver Dragon in disguise!!!

Those overly dickish players need to be taught a lesson.

Not in AL. You're not in true control of the table as an AL DM. You're just a puppet DM. The most you could do would be to close the table for the night (at least I think you can do that...).

Quote from: Skarg;1059389Wow, and there it is.

To me that sounds like time to say, "Here's what I do..." and try to kill the Tiefling.

AL rules may say a PC can't attack another PC, but if, as others mentioned, PCs can't do what the Tiefling did, the Tiefling is now an NPC or player-adversary, and fair game. If the DM resists, I'd say my character becomes an adversary and/or NPCs if need be, but what he'd do is attack the Tiefling.

In any case, getting away from playing with those players and that DM seem like the thing to do, to me. Sounds like the DM should be reported to the AL people, too.

Greetings!

Hi Skarg! Yeah, "Wow, and there it is." So damned true, my friend.

A few weeks later, another wonderful scenario unfolded as we made our way through The Tomb of Annihilation campaign;

The group had made it to this weird, ancient city, which seemed to be mostly in ruins. As a human Barbarian, I had boosted my Constitution by this time, so that I was rocking something like 77 Hit Points. I had greater strength, higher constitution, and more hit points than any other member of the group. Consequently, I was usually the lead, pushing forward scouting, and to take on any foes seeking to ambush us. My goal was to always gain the attention and focus of any opponents, so they would not target the weaker members of the party. As the stupid "Death Curse" thing prevailed, there was no raise dead possible, so any characters that died would be essentially fucked. Sure enough, we encountered some enemies, and when they were defeated, in a nearby building, we discovered a native human, cowering in fear. Once we introduced ourselves and made our intentions clear, the native tribesman agreed to help our party as we explored the ancient city, acting as our guide and interpreter. The native tribesman was not only knowledgeable of the city and the environment, but also with the local legends and mythology. Most importantly, however, the native tribesman was fluent in several local languages, including the cryptic inscriptions and writings upon the ruins and monuments around us.

By this time, I should note, the Tiefling Assassin was no longer with the group. We had at this juncture, 7 members in the party. We were running with 6, but for tonight, we gained a new member. This guy was a Half Orc Barbarian. We then move along, and encounter some monuments which have weird inscriptions on them. Our faithful guide proceeds to translate for us, and we are eagerly learning things as we go. We fight some more monsters, and we emerge victorious. At this point, as the fight was tough, we decide to make a quick camp to heal and recuperate, at least for 5 or 6 hours, before we plan to march onward.

Some ways at the edge of our encampment, the Half Orc Barbarian is asking our faithful, native guide to translate some nearby inscriptions. The guide offers his translation, telling the Half Orc Barbarian that the inscriptions are actually some kind of graffitti, telling the observer that "heretics and assholes are not allowed in our city" or something close to that. So, our guide tells the Half Orc Barbarian what the meaning of the graffitti is, in translation.

What do you imagine happened next? How do you think the Half Orc Barbarian responded to our faithful guide and interpreter? WAIT FOR IT....!!! LOL.


The Half Orc Barbarian grabbed our guide by the head, holding him up against the pillar, and snarled into his face, "You can't insult me that way!" and then rammed his broadsword through our guide's throat, killing him instantly.

How's the saying go, "You can't make this shit up!"? I wish this was not a reality, but over a period of several weeks, sixish or so, we have had three different players who join our group for one session, or maybe two or three, and they have all done monstrous stupid shit like this, all laughing maniacally. This was the third or maybe fourth instance of some fucking moron behaving this way. The rest of the group, 4 or 5 of them, as noted are regulars, but while they don't do things as eggregiously stupid and evil, they consistently laugh and giggle like morons, and encourage these kinds of jackasses. And they aren't all teenagers. The DM consistently laughs right along with them, glowing in his approval of their evil antics, and how such fucks the party. The DM announced to the party, "Well, now your faithful guide is dead. You have no one who can translate the mysterious inscriptions anymore!" He said this with an obvious, smug certainty. The Freak Train just doesn't stop with these people.

My buddy tells me later on as we're driving, "What the fuck is wrong with these people? At every turn, we have some jackass that joins our group, with no sense of honor, morality, or loyalty to the group. They always seem to love killing innocent NPC's--not enemies--which can otherwise help us. The folks at the flying ship, the coloured frog people, our guide tonight. Goddamn this shit pisses me the fuck off. Members of the group are supposed to want to HELP THE GROUP--not fuck us at every goddamn opportunity, as they giggle and jerk themselves. These fuckstick's antics get fucking old with me, brother."

*sigh* He says to me,

"It seems like us, and our normal groups are just from a different era, man. I've never seen anyone act this stupid and evil in your campaigns, SHARK. Ever. And yet here we see idiots like this on a fucking weekly basis."

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, if you are shielded from the consequences of your actions, then this is the glorious result. :mad:

It matters not the venue for rat-fuckery, be it: anonymity on the internet (or plausible deniability in politics and alphabet soup agencies), distance on Xbox Live and the like, or coherent setting consequences from a hog-tied GM in an Organized Play RPG society. If you forever get mindless mercy -- not receiving what you justly deserve from your actions -- then you will persist on doing that. It's the nature of life and exploiting advantages. :)

I think you've seen your second sign that this will not get better by the participation of you two. ;)

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Quote from: KingCheops;1059180This isn't anything new.  I encountered this a lot when running games in University back in the early aughts.  Doesn't matter the edition either.

Early aughts? That sort of behavior has been around since 1974.

I imagine that AL rules don't let you roleplay being suspicious of new half-orc barbarians and other random people showing up to "join the party", and keeping an eye on them and not letting them near the prisoners... sigh.

Quote from: Skarg;1059470I imagine that AL rules don't let you roleplay being suspicious of new half-orc barbarians and other random people showing up to "join the party", and keeping an eye on them and not letting them near the prisoners... sigh.

The problem isn't random half-orc barbarians; it's the random players of whom one needs to be suspicious.

Shark, you're playing AL which is barely RPGing. Your OP sounds like "OMG, I went to a bar and it was full of drunks!'

Org Play is a munchkin magnet. It's been that way since 2e's RPGA Living City allowed Kits. But munchkin asshats buy books constantly so Org Play will cater to them.

As for you, gather your own crew and run something that supports the fantasy enjoy.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1059483Shark, you're playing AL which is barely RPGing. Your OP sounds like "OMG, I went to a bar and it was full of drunks!'

Org Play is a munchkin magnet. It's been that way since 2e's RPGA Living City allowed Kits. But munchkin asshats buy books constantly so Org Play will cater to them.

As for you, gather your own crew and run something that supports the fantasy enjoy.

Yup. It's the first official public face of gaming -- and gaming of last resort -- at the same time. Which makes it a port terminal with a constant influx of new faces... and a munchkin prison for those who ran out of friends who'll put up with their shit. Putting your port terminal & max security prison together is kinda stupid, but there you are. ;)

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059509Yup. It's the first official public face of gaming -- and gaming of last resort -- at the same time. Which makes it a port terminal with a constant influx of new faces... and a munchkin prison for those who ran out of friends who'll put up with their shit. Putting your port terminal & max security prison together is kinda stupid, but there you are. ;)

Greetings!

Indeed. I admit, I've been accustomed to playing with family and friends for many years. My exposure to "random public drop-ins" has been limited to conventions and game tables there. So, it has been quite a culture shock to regularly play with jackasses. I've encountered them on occasion in the past--as others have well-noted--such morons have always existed in our hobby. I somewhat naively admit, I always thought they were an unfortunate minority. To my chagrin, I have discovered that they are far more numerous than I previously imagined. Then, of course, there's the sobering thought that such jackasses may actually be *increasing* in our hobby, because our larger society is in fact, creating more of them. Sad but true, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1059520Greetings!

Indeed. I admit, I've been accustomed to playing with family and friends for many years. My exposure to "random public drop-ins" has been limited to conventions and game tables there. So, it has been quite a culture shock to regularly play with jackasses. I've encountered them on occasion in the past--as others have well-noted--such morons have always existed in our hobby. I somewhat naively admit, I always thought they were an unfortunate minority. To my chagrin, I have discovered that they are far more numerous than I previously imagined. Then, of course, there's the sobering thought that such jackasses may actually be *increasing* in our hobby, because our larger society is in fact, creating more of them. Sad but true, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't see this dickwad behaviour at the Meetup I run. If you are ever in London SHARK do drop in for a game.

Quote from: SHARK;1059520Then, of course, there's the sobering thought that such jackasses may actually be *increasing* in our hobby, because our larger society is in fact, creating more of them.

Unlikely.

There have always been and will probably always be a proportion of jackasses in society. Some of them grow out of it when and if they mature. Some don't. Jackasses cluster in locales where they tolerated: social media, the Internet, gaming conventions, and organized game play each fall into that category.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1059483Shark, you're playing AL which is barely RPGing. Your OP sounds like "OMG, I went to a bar and it was full of drunks!'

Org Play is a munchkin magnet. It's been that way since 2e's RPGA Living City allowed Kits. But munchkin asshats buy books constantly so Org Play will cater to them.

As for you, gather your own crew and run something that supports the fantasy enjoy.

Pretty good points made there.  The RPG industry loves people who buy lots of books.  Those consumers are the backbone of the industry, and I have made my own contributions to the cause.

Quote from: SHARK;1059520Greetings!

Indeed. I admit, I've been accustomed to playing with family and friends for many years. My exposure to "random public drop-ins" has been limited to conventions and game tables there. So, it has been quite a culture shock to regularly play with jackasses. I've encountered them on occasion in the past--as others have well-noted--such morons have always existed in our hobby. I somewhat naively admit, I always thought they were an unfortunate minority. To my chagrin, I have discovered that they are far more numerous than I previously imagined. Then, of course, there's the sobering thought that such jackasses may actually be *increasing* in our hobby, because our larger society is in fact, creating more of them. Sad but true, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My own unfortunate experiences with Organized Play (AL, Pathfinder Society, etc.) is that it breeds jackass players and turns off casual gamers from TTRPGs.

Quote from: jeff37923;1059550My own unfortunate experiences with Organized Play (AL, Pathfinder Society, etc.) is that it breeds jackass players and turns off casual gamers from TTRPGs.

Greetings!

Hey there, Jeff! Very interesting. How do you think the "Organized Play" of Adventure League, etc. tends to *breed* such jackasses? Even more salient a point--assuming the driving purpose of "Organized Play" is focused on *increasing* the appeal of D&D specifically to casual gamers? I could be wrong, but I think I interpreted their "mission statement" accurately--that attracting and retaining casual gamers was a primary goal.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1059557Hey there, Jeff! Very interesting. How do you think the "Organized Play" of Adventure League, etc. tends to *breed* such jackasses? Even more salient a point--assuming the driving purpose of "Organized Play" is focused on *increasing* the appeal of D&D specifically to casual gamers? I could be wrong, but I think I interpreted their "mission statement" accurately--that attracting and retaining casual gamers was a primary goal.

Seems pretty clear the AL restrictions tend to fail, backfire, and get selectively applied, especially by problematic GMs, which you gave some perfect examples of.

The whole teenage backlash prank phenomenon has shifted from what kids did in the 70's and 80's (vandalism, prank phone calls, etc) to online "trolling" and "griefing" on forums and in games, and hacking web sites, etc. This seems like a related thing - hide behind the AL rules like:

"I'm a PC - I get to act like a serial killer and perversely murder NPCs like I'm playing Grand Theft Auto - and the AL rules keep the other players from stopping me or killing me or leaving me tied to a tree with no equipment to be eaten by slimes. And even if I die, I get to create a new StrangeBrew weenie/Munchkin/"assassin" character and the GM will have it appear in the wilderness by the party and the other players have to accept them into the group and let them near the NPCs so they can kill them and laugh at the reactions from the roleplayers."

A GM worth their salt could shut them down, but if not...

Other AL issues rawma mentioned above also look problematic to me:

"Most of the prepared material does not provide for players to fail from a lack of non-combat actions or abilities..."
- I'm not sure exactly what this means, but it sounds a lot like what the players do doesn't matter as long as they don't die (permanently) in combat. That sounds like the sort of thing players notice and get bored and start to see how ridiculous they can be, since there are never any real consequences for much of anything.

"XP is no longer calculated, but follows from the number of hours of play and from completing the adventure objectives. Treasure points are awarded at the same rate, so murderhobos get no additional treasure. Magic items are available to any character to buy with treasure points; each season has a list of magic items available automatically, and characters can get access to other items as a result of adventures. I have mixed feelings about these changes (e.g., wizards now have a hard time accumulating additional spells, since they have to spend treasure points on the cost of copying spells to their spell books), but I think they are intended to promote role-playing and probably achieve at least some of that. (I may be off on some of the details, which have changed since the original announcement; I've depended on other DMs I play with to track the specifics for our games, and only just started running for the first time last week.)"
- While this might cut back on murder for loot, it also sounds to me like more lack of rational consequences, which again can be taken by fools & asses as an invitation to not care and to do random perverse out-of-character bullshit for "LOLs" and to test the ridiculous consequence-less-ness of the game, since they will get the same XP, loot and magic "rewards" just for showing up and spending time at the table.

Quote from: SHARK;1059557Hey there, Jeff! Very interesting. How do you think the "Organized Play" of Adventure League, etc. tends to *breed* such jackasses?

Before I go on, let me preface that all of my negative experiences come from the Knoxville, TN area.

First off, those interested in Organized Play tend to not have their own home games. This may be due to any number of reasons, but antisocial behavior seems to be a big reason. As Skarg has said, any GM worth their salt can nip this behavior in the bud and so can Players (especially if they are allowed to engage in PvP). The lack of asshole controls (which were removed in the name of inclusivity) means that these jackasses can run amuck and not be penalized for it.

Now this, coupled with OP Directors who are severe social justice types (since those are who WotC and Paizo favors to represent them), you start to have a situation where the OP group becomes a private club in which they are the big dogs who decide who is and who is not discouraged or encouraged to participate. For myself, this came to a head with a charity gaming event called Save vs Hunger where I was invited to participate and donate money/material, but was not supported with advertising or even listing the games I was going to run. However, every Adventurer's League and Pathfinder Society game was repeatedly advertised and announced with attendant prize support from WotC and Paizo. When I asked around why I was not supported in my participation, I was informed that the local director of AL felt that I was too "heteronormative" for his comfort.

Quote from: SHARK;1059557Even more salient a point--assuming the driving purpose of "Organized Play" is focused on *increasing* the appeal of D&D specifically to casual gamers? I could be wrong, but I think I interpreted their "mission statement" accurately--that attracting and retaining casual gamers was a primary goal.

That is the stated goal, but in practice Organized Play is used as an unpaid advertising department for the publishing company of the game. Now with even just a handful of lawncrappers involved in the public games, good players will be turned off and drift away (as is going on in your instance). Now support in the form of swag or prestige is dependent on the number of people who show up for the Organized Play event, so it behooves the Organized Play directors to attract and recruit as many people as possible. This usually results in a very aggressive recruitment approach. I have had Adventurer's League and Pathfinder Society participants try and poach my players when I am running an unrelated game (Traveller, d6 Star Wars) in the same public space.

Organized Play groups do not wish to share, either. The number of public play spaces and number of potential players tends to be finite and Organized Play groups want them all. I have had FLGS gameplay spaces be taken over by Organized Play groups, pushing out non-Organized Play games being played (I cannot fault the FLGS owners for this, they are trying to make a living by selling stuff and OP members tend to buy a lot of stuff - so it is good for business in the short run). I have had convention space allotted to me for running games be handed over to OP groups because they promised a larger number of attendees (which may or may not show up). I have walked in on OP reps bad-mouthing GMs, players, and games that were not associated with Organized Play in an attempt to recruit for OP games because they did not want competition.

So, yeah. I've had a lot of negative experiences with Organized Play.

Quote from: Skarg;1059563Seems pretty clear the AL restrictions tend to fail, backfire, and get selectively applied, especially by problematic GMs, which you gave some perfect examples of.

Problematic GMs are probably worse outside of organized play, and there's the least pressure on them to change in a campaign with only a single GM (i.e., not organized play).

Quotehide behind the AL rules like:

"I'm a PC - I get to act like a serial killer and perversely murder NPCs like I'm playing Grand Theft Auto - and the AL rules keep the other players from stopping me or killing me or leaving me tied to a tree with no equipment to be eaten by slimes. And even if I die, I get to create a new StrangeBrew weenie/Munchkin/"assassin" character and the GM will have it appear in the wilderness by the party and the other players have to accept them into the group and let them near the NPCs so they can kill them and laugh at the reactions from the roleplayers."

A GM worth their salt could shut them down, but if not...

It's against the AL rules to have a chaotic evil or neutral evil alignment, and the Adventurers League DM is specifically empowered to deal with things that violate the rules: "You may disallow something that seems outside the rules", "You're Empowered", "Challenge Your Players". And you can add thematically appropriate opponents; in Storm King's Thunder, I added a ludicrous squad of paladins and clerics who were six levels higher than the PCs, not because anyone was being a jerk but to make it clear that there were opponents they could not defeat. (They had to use an NPC contact from earlier in the adventure to rescue the wizard who did not run away.) Low level characters are fairly easy to deal with by introducing a large force of town guards or vengeance seeking relatives; higher level characters should have been playing AL long enough to know what's appropriate.

QuoteOther AL issues rawma mentioned above also look problematic to me:

"Most of the prepared material does not provide for players to fail from a lack of non-combat actions or abilities..."
- I'm not sure exactly what this means, but it sounds a lot like what the players do doesn't matter as long as they don't die (permanently) in combat. That sounds like the sort of thing players notice and get bored and start to see how ridiculous they can be, since there are never any real consequences for much of anything.

I meant that the adventure never grinds to a halt because no character has proficiency in Arcana or can't figure out a given puzzle or open a particular locked door or persuade a stubborn NPC without combat; the adventure does come to a halt if there's a TPK. Players therefore favor more combat relevant abilities: Stealth and Perception, which affect combat for purposes of advantage or surprise, or Acrobatics and Athletics, which affect combat for grappling or maneuver and also obstacles that might kill the character, over social, crafting, knowledge skills.

Quote"XP is no longer calculated, but follows from the number of hours of play and from completing the adventure objectives. Treasure points are awarded at the same rate, so murderhobos get no additional treasure. Magic items are available to any character to buy with treasure points; each season has a list of magic items available automatically, and characters can get access to other items as a result of adventures. I have mixed feelings about these changes (e.g., wizards now have a hard time accumulating additional spells, since they have to spend treasure points on the cost of copying spells to their spell books), but I think they are intended to promote role-playing and probably achieve at least some of that. (I may be off on some of the details, which have changed since the original announcement; I've depended on other DMs I play with to track the specifics for our games, and only just started running for the first time last week.)"

- While this might cut back on murder for loot, it also sounds to me like more lack of rational consequences, which again can be taken by fools & asses as an invitation to not care and to do random perverse out-of-character bullshit for "LOLs" and to test the ridiculous consequence-less-ness of the game, since they will get the same XP, loot and magic "rewards" just for showing up and spending time at the table.

The alignment restrictions still exist. For Season 8 and beyond, modules can award bonus points for achieving specific objectives; for hardcovers, the points are awarded per hour only if the characters are "in pursuit of the adventure's stated goals". Previous season modules do appear to award fixed amounts based on the stated duration of the session without regard to what the party does; given a critical mass of players who don't care and a DM who does nothing to stop them, then, yes, that's a table to leave at once. But the same could happen in a non-organized play setting when you join a group. I have a home campaign but we stick with AL rules because the players want to take the characters to AL events.

But the consequences do not have to be solely in the game; like disruptive posters at a forum like this can be banned, so can the jerk who does not care about ordinary social pressure be ejected. If a forum like this or an entire AL group is taken over by jerks, then you should leave and find somewhere more to your liking.

Opaopajr gives some examples of other kinds of disagreeable behavior:

Quote from: Opaopajr;1059450Well, if you are shielded from the consequences of your actions, then this is the glorious result. :mad:

It matters not the venue for rat-fuckery, be it: anonymity on the internet (or plausible deniability in politics and alphabet soup agencies), distance on Xbox Live and the like, or coherent setting consequences from a hog-tied GM in an Organized Play RPG society. If you forever get mindless mercy -- not receiving what you justly deserve from your actions -- then you will persist on doing that. It's the nature of life and exploiting advantages. :)

But all of these other things depend on anonymity or significant remoteness (e.g., road rage is more common than pedestrian rage). Barring an entirely dysfunctional AL group, AL disrupters have a table of other people who want to play the adventure they came for, who are right there in the seats around the same table; without a critical mass of jerks (who include the DM), ordinary social pressure will typically deal with the problems. But I would deal with it as a DM and expect any AL DM or venue to deal with it, up to and including ejecting the player.

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It's kind of boggling that a "rulings not rules" site like this has so many people whining that the AL rules aren't sufficient.

For people like SHARK and jeff37923, I am sorry for your bad experiences with AL; the AL people I have played with (multiple game stores, conventions and home games) are really nice people, but apparently I have been lucky in my experiences.

Quote from: jeff37923;1059565Before I go on, let me preface that all of my negative experiences come from the Knoxville, TN area.

First off, those interested in Organized Play tend to not have their own home games. This may be due to any number of reasons, but antisocial behavior seems to be a big reason. As Skarg has said, any GM worth their salt can nip this behavior in the bud and so can Players (especially if they are allowed to engage in PvP). The lack of asshole controls (which were removed in the name of inclusivity) means that these jackasses can run amuck and not be penalized for it.

Now this, coupled with OP Directors who are severe social justice types (since those are who WotC and Paizo favors to represent them), you start to have a situation where the OP group becomes a private club in which they are the big dogs who decide who is and who is not discouraged or encouraged to participate. For myself, this came to a head with a charity gaming event called Save vs Hunger where I was invited to participate and donate money/material, but was not supported with advertising or even listing the games I was going to run. However, every Adventurer's League and Pathfinder Society game was repeatedly advertised and announced with attendant prize support from WotC and Paizo. When I asked around why I was not supported in my participation, I was informed that the local director of AL felt that I was too "heteronormative" for his comfort.




That is the stated goal, but in practice Organized Play is used as an unpaid advertising department for the publishing company of the game. Now with even just a handful of lawncrappers involved in the public games, good players will be turned off and drift away (as is going on in your instance). Now support in the form of swag or prestige is dependent on the number of people who show up for the Organized Play event, so it behooves the Organized Play directors to attract and recruit as many people as possible. This usually results in a very aggressive recruitment approach. I have had Adventurer's League and Pathfinder Society participants try and poach my players when I am running an unrelated game (Traveller, d6 Star Wars) in the same public space.

Organized Play groups do not wish to share, either. The number of public play spaces and number of potential players tends to be finite and Organized Play groups want them all. I have had FLGS gameplay spaces be taken over by Organized Play groups, pushing out non-Organized Play games being played (I cannot fault the FLGS owners for this, they are trying to make a living by selling stuff and OP members tend to buy a lot of stuff - so it is good for business in the short run). I have had convention space allotted to me for running games be handed over to OP groups because they promised a larger number of attendees (which may or may not show up). I have walked in on OP reps bad-mouthing GMs, players, and games that were not associated with Organized Play in an attempt to recruit for OP games because they did not want competition.

So, yeah. I've had a lot of negative experiences with Organized Play.

Greetings!

Damn, Jeff! LOL. At the risk of sounding way out of touch--what for God's sake is being "TOO HETERONORMATIVE"? The AL organizer actually said that to you? Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark, is this your first XP with Organized Play? Did you ever play RPGA's Living City during 2e or RPGA's Living Greyhawk in 3e or RPGA's Living Forgotten Realms in 4e?

All the problems I'm hearing from people about AL 5e was the same bullshit song and dance I encountered in those previous Org Play. The SJW idiocy in AL 5e is new, but its just a shit flavored twist to the old clique bullshit that regularly plagued the previous Org Play incarnations. AKA, now they hate Jeff for being "too heteronormative" and 2 editions ago, they would have hated Jeff for whatever [fill in the blank] reason. Back in the ancient time, I had a RPGA director lose their shit because I let a non-gamer wife sit in the room while I ran a convention tourney event and the fucktard was ranting that the non-gaming wife would now tell everyone about the tourney and ruin it for other groups.

So if you're playing AL, you're kinda complaining about why you're getting a shit sandwich in the HQ of 24/7 Shit Sandwiches, Inc.

I've seen Org Play work, but it was because we had a team who made it work, but it was pretty clear that took more effort than just hosting a home game. I know AL groups who aren't public, aka they play AL with their own GM and set of players completely divorced from the local jackass brigade and their wannabe dictators.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1059815Shark, is this your first XP with Organized Play? Did you ever play RPGA's Living City during 2e or RPGA's Living Greyhawk in 3e or RPGA's Living Forgotten Realms in 4e?

All the problems I'm hearing from people about AL 5e was the same bullshit song and dance I encountered in those previous Org Play. The SJW idiocy in AL 5e is new, but its just a shit flavored twist to the old clique bullshit that regularly plagued the previous Org Play incarnations. AKA, now they hate Jeff for being "too heteronormative" and 2 editions ago, they would have hated Jeff for whatever [fill in the blank] reason. Back in the ancient time, I had a RPGA director lose their shit because I let a non-gamer wife sit in the room while I ran a convention tourney event and the fucktard was ranting that the non-gaming wife would now tell everyone about the tourney and ruin it for other groups.

So if you're playing AL, you're kinda complaining about why you're getting a shit sandwich in the HQ of 24/7 Shit Sandwiches, Inc.

I've seen Org Play work, but it was because we had a team who made it work, but it was pretty clear that took more effort than just hosting a home game. I know AL groups who aren't public, aka they play AL with their own GM and set of players completely divorced from the local jackass brigade and their wannabe dictators.

Greetings!

Hello Spinachcat!!! Well, yes, I suppose it is, my friend. In high school, I played with a good number of home groups, and even some groups at school. A few of our teachers played and supervised us. Lots of fun, too. Home groups though, from then, until the military. In the Marines, I played with a good number of different groups. D&D was always popular. The groups were made up of all Marines, from ages of 18-26. Occasionally a few girlfriends would join in with us. After the Marine Corps, well, again I had numerous home groups through the years, sometimes more than one campaign going at the same time--like two campaigns during a week. Then I went to college--again, I had veterans, family, friends, and new friends made at college. Lots of regular, constant gaming groups going on for years. Throughout all of these years, I attended conventions fairly regularly--but even there, I had a couple friends with me, and my wife, and their wives, ao we joined tables and groups at the cons, and we always had a blast playing with new people. To now. LOL. My first experiences with "organized play." So, I think maybe you can see I have played with many, many different people. Currently, I have a few girls in one group (all adults); several Marine buddies in another group (all adults); and a few other friends that I play with regularly. (also adult friends of mine.)

I suppose it is why I'm feeling bewildered at how about 50% of these jackasses play at Adventurer League. It has been a huge culture shock, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love, love, love the concept of OrgPlay (which is why I've been a GM/organizer/volunteer repeatedly in the past), but OrgPlay unfortunately draws in a certain element who I dub "people you'd kick out of your home game...through a window" and when those people become the local organizers or the most vocal players, then everything goes to shit.

Shark, it sounds like you have enough good players in your reach to have a fun and functional private group.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1060010I love, love, love the concept of OrgPlay (which is why I've been a GM/organizer/volunteer repeatedly in the past), but OrgPlay unfortunately draws in a certain element who I dub "people you'd kick out of your home game...through a window" and when those people become the local organizers or the most vocal players, then everything goes to shit.

That is what I am seeing too, which begs the question, "If OrgPlay had the goal of getting casual gamers and lapsed players back into the hobby, then why is it set up in such a way as to drive them away and turn them off of TTRPGs?"

Quote from: jeff37923;1060075That is what I am seeing too, which begs the question, "If OrgPlay had the goal of getting casual gamers and lapsed players back into the hobby, then why is it set up in such a way as to drive them away and turn them off of TTRPGs?"

The only goal of OrgPlay is to sell books. Thus, its setup to incentivize involvement of those who buy the most books, who aren't the casual gamers. It's the obsessives. The casual gamers buy the PHB and maybe a book of goodies for their favored class. Maybe a fig and some dice. And they're the first to vanish.  

And since the companies don't pay the staff of OrgPlay, the volunteers fall into a few camps (power junkies, do-gooders, and hardcore GMs).  The Power Junkies are there to become petty gods over their domain, enforce rules and curry favors. The Do Gooders are there to work while everyone else has fun, lots of martyrdom personalities, often older female gamers. The hardcore GMs are people who rwant to play the damn game and do the OrgPlay work to make that damn game happen in their community. BUT what happens over time is the Power Junkies piss off everyone else and all that's left is those convince themselves they need the OrgPlay and begrudgingly put up with the bullshit.

Back when I GM'd for OrgPlay, I'd set aside a Sunday night convention table for the Do Gooders so they could play one game that weekend. The Power Junkies would LOVE to throw "work" at the Do Gooders at the last minute so they'd miss out on even that one event. The weird geek martyrdom was sad and creepy...and not surprising in the overall story of their lives.  

Even if I liked 5e, I doubt I'd return to OrgPlay because I've been through the Endless Cycle of Stupid and now its SJW flavored which sounds extra unfun.

Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?  "That's just, like, your opinion, man, morality is subjective..."  Raise a whole generation like that, and you get some of what you're describing.

On organized play in general, there's two kinds of people who show up.  One kind is the players who get kicked out of home games or can't get people to show up twice when they GM, so they have nowhere else to go, but "open table" means they can't be turned away.  The other kind is people who don't know any better, new players checking out this game they've heard of, returning players thinking of getting back in, and active players looking for a group, or just checking out a new edition.  Normally I would say play a few sessions to see if there's anybody you want to recruit for a game you run, but it doesn't sound like there's anybody to salvage, so it's time to just quit.

The whole point of the 3-7 person table size is at 8 you split into two groups of 4, make one player a GM, and you're ready to roll again.  I have no idea why your table hasn't split, especially if one is already acting as a co-GM, but it sounds like the least of your problems at this point.  (Although, if for some bizarre reason you do stay in, you need to start GMing for a new table and show them how it's done.)

Quote from: rawma;1059178I played for a while at a game store with young players who were far worse. They were peeved with me when I insisted that we could not loot the grave we found, magic item notwithstanding, because my wizard would not countenance such disrespect...

I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?  "That's just, like, your opinion, man, morality is subjective..."  Raise a whole generation like that, and you get some of what you're describing.

On organized play in general, there's two kinds of people who show up.  One kind is the players who get kicked out of home games or can't get people to show up twice when they GM, so they have nowhere else to go, but "open table" means they can't be turned away.  The other kind is people who don't know any better, new players checking out this game they've heard of, returning players thinking of getting back in, and active players looking for a group, or just checking out a new edition.  Normally I would say play a few sessions to see if there's anybody you want to recruit for a game you run, but it doesn't sound like there's anybody to salvage, so it's time to just quit.

The whole point of the 3-7 person table size is at 8 you split into two groups of 4, make one player a GM, and you're ready to roll again.  I have no idea why your table hasn't split, especially if one is already acting as a co-GM, but it sounds like the least of your problems at this point.  (Although, if for some bizarre reason you do stay in, you need to start GMing for a new table and show them how it's done.)



I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Greetings!

Outstanding, Dave. "Downstream from culture." Wow. Isn't that the truth? Raising a whole generation like that...and this is what we get. Right on, brother! Hey, and since when did this whole nonsense come about where you are "handed hero status just for rolling up a character"? I'm accustomed to the standard of you start out like scum, or a scorned, out-of-favor noble, or even a young, *unproven* knight--regardless of specific background, you're ultimately weak, poor, and expendable in the big picture of society. It is up to you to fight, and struggle, and claw your way up to fame, riches, and everlasting glory.

Geesus. You're so right on target man. Outside of gaming--I'm familiar with trends in education and such--we started to ban "dodgeball" and competitive games, because too many whining misfits couldn't participate--so then we ban all that as being too macho and hurtful; and instead everyone can participate--and you must accept the misfits on your team--and everyone gets a "participation trophy." No trophies and celebrations for those that EXCEL--no, no, that's *elitist*. Yeah. Just like you said, gaming is "downstream from culture." Geesus that's sharp.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark, outside of D&D, there are old school games where your PC starts beefy.  Palladium Books entire line is about starting 1st level competent. Old School D&D does Zero to Hero (as does Warhammer Fantasy), but we've had "hero from day 1" RPGs for decades.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?

Good point.

Freak troupes: Yes, you're right. In fact, I believe including any kind of demi-humans to have been a mistake.

Evil powers for good: Come on, that's the zeitgeist of the time...starting with Jack Bauer killing an witness to get "results". And the Assassin was part of Supplement 2: Blackmoor. I see little difference with a Warlock, frankly.
Do you have to like such classes? No. Do you have to allow them for PCs? No. Do they have a place in some games? Yes.
Seems like the game you're in is not a good fit for you.
That said...a Paladin can't be an Warlock. I don't give a flying **** what the rulebook says. Associating with evil and using evil means is a way to turn a hero into an anti-hero, and paladin's powers derive from him being able to say: "I AM THE HERO!"
(And "We Are Groot", too).

No heroism: well, that's the (biggest) problem I'd have with this group. It's not that such groups can't exist...but I don't have fun running games for Billie the Kid. If they kill off NPCs and destroy your dyplomacy attempts, you've gotta have a talk. Like grown-ups (if they don't know how, that's as good a moment as any for them to learn).

Or it might be an issue with Organised Play. I've got limited experience with that.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Bad role-playing, I say. There are consequences to looting graves, beyond curses and being haunted; your unvarying willingness to do so says a lot about your character. If you would never play a character who wouldn't do that or who could be intimidated by a wizard's warning, then you might as well retreat to playing war games with unnamed playing pieces. Note that 5e AL, even before the current season, did not generally award any XP for loot (exceptions being in a few modules where it was an adventure objective), and like most magic items and treasures at low levels this was not going to make a significant difference in a character's power.

(I can also play it the other way, if it's what my character is like. But it might still have turned out the same: it was a rubbish magic item, and my most mercenary character might have judged it not worth the risk to be found carrying identifiable loot by the people who had dug that fairly fresh grave. And in Barovia it almost certainly would have inflicted some curse to take it.)

It doesn't help that base non-variant human is not optimal. All those +1s have little interaction in the game outside it the DM Fiat heavy skill system and since that system is so Fiat dependent, it is generally not that important.

And then variant human tends to be banned. So you get a bunch of demi-humans as the "default" group.

Quote from: AsenRG;1060151That said...a Paladin can't be an Warlock. I don't give a flying **** what the rulebook says. Associating with evil and using evil means is a way to turn a hero into an anti-hero, and paladin's powers derive from him being able to say: "I AM THE HERO!"
(And "We Are Groot", too).

That's a remarkably closed-minded approach. First off, we're not necessarily talking about an old-school Paladin (one taking the Oath of Devotion) and a stereotypical Warlock (with the Fiend Patron). We could be talking about a "Summer/Winter Knight" character combining an Oath of the Ancients (Paladin) with the Archfey Patron (Warlock). Such a character has two classes with subtypes that are very compatible. Oh, and such a character can certainly be the HERO too.

Consider these Oath and Patron parings too:
Oath of Devotion with Celestial Patron
Oath of Redemption with Celestial Patron
Oath of Vengeance with Celestial Patron
Oath of Conquest with Fiend Patron
Oath of Vengeance with Fiend Patron

Quote from: Rhedyn;1060183And then variant human tends to be banned.

It does? Really? I've seen the opposite: The 'variant' human is made the default human.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1060200It does? Really? I've seen the opposite: The 'variant' human is made the default human.

All my humans are Variant - never seen a GM disallow it if they allow Feats at all.