Quote from: Fiasco;1002881I can't remember who said it but the best summary of Kask I read something like "I'd never heard about Tim Kask until he came on this forum to tell us about Tim Kask."

It seems to be symptomatic of a particular section of the old crowd which most certainly includes both Mentzer and Gronan.  D&D was this big thing and they were there at the time but were never central to the action.

I'd say Mentzer, unlike Kask & Monard, definitely was 'central to the action' with Red Box Basic & the BECMI line. It popularised D&D worldwide, so maybe he's more important to D&D outside the USA. But his contribution was definitely important. Personally I'd put him just behind Gygax & Arneson. You could argue eg Moldvay was more important to '80s D&D, but Mentzer was definitely important IMO.

Quote from: sureshot;1002823What was once acceptable is no longer as such. Nowadays asking a random women out on a date espceially a total stranger can get one in trouble. Frank was asking way too familiar with Jessica imo. You get to know a person first. Find out their boundaries on what they will or will not allow. More importantly find out if their is a mutual interest on dating. Not "I like your work and BTW your super hot and if I was younger I would totally date you" to someone one barely knows. Their a fine line between outgoing and being creepy. If I ask someone for a date I make sure to either know the person. Or have that person referred to by a friend. If it's a blind date those have their own rules. Actions have consequences, people are responsible for their own actions and claiming it's been done before is a poorly disguised dodge to try and not take responsiblity for one actions as far as I'm concerned.

I was not out to see Frank blacklisted but fuck, FUCK he really did not do himself any favors. Especially given how many rpg companies are not tolerant of that kind of behavior now. Those that are more tolerant won't probably have anything to do with him for fear of losing sales.

People ask strangers out all the time. It's called Tinder or going to a bar. What Frank said was creepy but not sexual assault or anything beyond. It's something stupid and weird but not worth the witch hunt. And him saying sexual assault victims should call the police, used to be common sense back when sexual assault actually meant sexual assault.

Quote from: jeff37923;1002889You'd have to ask the SJWs about that one.....

Yes. Had a dream last night, In that dream a bunch of undead were trying to sleep with me. They weren't succeeding of course, but they were getting close enough so that their stench was getting all over me and making me reek. As soon as I woke up this morning I knew it was a metaphor for everything that was happening and that I need to get away from the truly toxic people in the gaming Industry that has invaded my G+ space. It's too bad they are running about and militantly being loud, aggressive, and making (...more or less) unsubstantiated allegations. What I witnessed there this last weekend was a highly coordinated, and broad and fuzzy attack on highly successful independent game publishers including Zak, Bill Webb, Frank Mentzer, as well as Paizo Publishing (Getting called on the mat for improperly adjudicating a harrassment charge during PaizoCon last year.)

The problem is, the mob with the pitchforks have no real clue how the issues were really handled, and they are simply speculating online in an inflammatory manner. They are an integral part of the problem, not part of the solution. They in fact, provided no solution, or even proposed a solution, even though I specifically requested one from them for this perceived problem they are crying about.

One final note here, I've seen firsthand what happens when a mob with pitchforks goes berserk. I was in L.A. in 92 working for LA County Internal Services Division (electronics & communications). When the mob went berserk in the name of justice, mind you, they ended up torching four hundred square miles of Los Angeles, and at the peak, they were setting over four thousand fires a day. Over ten thousand businesses were damaged, destroyed, or looted. There were so many fires it was pitch black as midnight at high noon. I got to see such awesome stuff as a thousand fire trucks in one place at one time as fire companies from six adjacent states rallied to help their fellow firemen who were getting shot down in the streets like dogs. I drove on an eight line freeway the I-5, and for a week was in fact the only car on the freeway for as far as I could see as I was driving to work in the morning and returning in the evening. That was a surreal experience, and of course driving into the darkness where the fires were being set. In the end, two full divisions over 20,000 soldiers of the California National Guard were deployed as well as the Marine Expeditionary Force from Camp Pendleton who were ordered to move into L.A. to quell the riot. 57 people ended up dying, some from mob beatings, some being shot at checkpoints that the military had setup during the week long dusk-to-dawn curfew that was put into effect. I was not actually subject to that curfew, because my job at the time was to ensure that L.A. County radio and emergency broadcast communications remained intact, so had a unique view of the entire event.

None of this rioting actually helped improve justice, the justice system, or racial relations, and in fact hurt all three, as well countless folks who had not been involved in any way, shape, or form, who no longer had access to food and other consumables because their corner grocery had been burnt to the ground. They got to suffer in the name of justice.

I'll be bowing out of this fight, and leaving gaming Antifa to continue setting fires in the community with no regard for the consequences of their actions.

Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another. That kind of stuff gets you blocked, ignored or even trouble wit Tinder, Plenty of Fish or any other similar dating sites. It's one thing to say something creepy. It's another to refuse to stop and double down when asked to stop. If the person one is talking too is clearly uncomfortable which Jessica was one STOPs doing it imo. Frank being stupid is a excuse. He fucked up and and made his situation worse. If he had walked away once he was told to stop by Jessica he might be seen as creepy. Instead he doubled down and ruined his own career. With the Harvey Weinstein scnadal still fresh in every one minds. it was a truly idiotic thing to do.

As for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that. Maybe it's because people are too sensitive or maybe some are tired of such pick-up lines. I'm began dating again awhile back and approached a few friends both male and female.  To get some advice and the above pick-up lines are a big no-no. Once can stupidly keep tossing out such cheesy pickup lines if one wants to remain single. Right now unfortunately for Frank it's a really bad thing to be very forward perhaps too forward when speaking to the opposite sex. Now one has to be careful what one says. I don't particularily like it yet that's the new reality. Adapt or be shunned and possibly lose one job.

I will say this on the subject. I am terrified very terrified at how some not only believe what a woman tells them at face value. How their is a willingness to toss the person in jail or worse without any due legal process. If it was left to some they would act like rabid dogs ruining everyone and possibly killing everyone with vigilante justice. When one tries to even hint if someone like Frank should receive due process and/or not accept every claim at face value. They would turn their mob justice on you. While also making you feel like your a criminal. Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

After being banned from Paizo a few months back it was nice to see them hoisted by is own petard. Their is a big SJW movement on their boards yet when a similar thread like this was started on their own forum. nor only where the usual SJWs conspicuously absent they locked their own thread and at first came off as looking bad due to the not being very sympathetic to what happened to Jessica. While seeming to brush off what a drunken Bill Webb behavior at a gaming con. Locking the  thread and only making a statement after it looked like some in the hobby would boycott them. I would be lying if I said that did not please me. Did they think no one would notice.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another. That kind of stuff gets you blocked, ignored or even trouble wit Tinder, Plenty of Fish or any other similar dating sites. It's one thing to say something creepy. It's another to refuse to stop and double down when asked to stop. If the person one is talking too is clearly uncomfortable which Jessica was one STOPs doing it imo. Frank being stupid is a excuse. He fucked up and and made his situation worse. If he had walked away once he was told to stop by Jessica he might be seen as creepy. Instead he doubled down and ruined his own career. With the Harvey Weinstein scnadal still fresh in every one minds. it was a truly idiotic thing to do.

As for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that. Maybe it's because people are too sensitive or maybe some are tired of such pick-up lines. I'm began dating again awhile back and approached a few friends both male and female.  To get some advice and the above pick-up lines are a big no-no. Once can stupidly keep tossing out such cheesy pickup lines if one wants to remain single. Right now unfortunately for Frank it's a really bad thing to be very forward perhaps too forward when speaking to the opposite sex. Now one has to be careful what one says. I don't particularily like it yet that's the new reality. Adapt or be shunned and possibly lose one job.

I will say this on the subject. I am terrified very terrified at how some not only believe what a woman tells them at face value. How their is a willingness to toss the person in jail or worse without any due legal process. If it was left to some they would act like rabid dogs ruining everyone and possibly killing everyone with vigilante justice. When one tries to even hint if someone like Frank should receive due process and/or not accept every claim at face value. They would turn their mob justice on you. While also making you feel like your a criminal. Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

After being banned from Paizo a few months back it was nice to see them hoisted by is own petard. Their is a big SJW movement on their boards yet when a similar thread like this was started on their own forum. nor only where the usual SJWs conspicuously absent they locked their own thread and at first came off as looking bad due to the not being very sympathetic to what happened to Jessica. While seeming to brush off what a drunken Bill Webb behavior at a gaming con. Locking the  thread and only making a statement after it looked like some in the hobby would boycott them. I would be lying if I said that did not please me. Did they think no one would notice.

I'm not familiar with the Bill Webb story at all. My hobby is playing games and not being in the "gaming community"

With Frank Mentzer, again what he said wasn't appropriate or smart. And when he kept going (based on the screenshot that was posted online) I just don't understand the need for the social media crew to destroy him. They are like Mao's Red Guard.

He did something stupid. Say he did something stupid. Ask for him to apologize. Accept it or not. But it doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that he should be banned from producing games anymore. He doesn't have a history of doing anything. He didn't commit violence towards anyone. The social media mob just wants blood until they can move on to the next outrage.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909I'm not familiar with the Bill Webb story at all. My hobby is playing games and not being in the "gaming community"

https://mobile.twitter.com/sphynxian/status/882440112646344708?lang=en

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909With Frank Mentzer, again what he said wasn't appropriate or smart. And when he kept going (based on the screenshot that was posted online) I just don't understand the need for the social media crew to destroy him. They are like Mao's Red Guard.

I think and still think his mistake was doubling down on his behavior imo. The smart thing would have been to apologize and I think it would have impacted his career less imo.

Quote from: Ulairi;1002909He did something stupid. Say he did something stupid. Ask for him to apologize. Accept it or not. But it doesn't mean he's a terrible person or that he should be banned from producing games anymore. He doesn't have a history of doing anything. He didn't commit violence towards anyone. The social media mob just wants blood until they can move on to the next outrage.

This day and age with companies bending over backwards to accomodate SJWs and the outrage brigade he really had no choice but to apologize. Whether he wanted to or not. I knew as soon as he refused to even admit to making a mistake he would be blacklisted. Given how it's a very touchy subject and will remain one for years to come if one wants to remain in the rpg industry. Or any other jobs outside of it one has to be careful what one says or does. It's scary how much of a witchhunt and willing one it can be.

I still don't think the SJW or even the anti-SJW mob have any power offline and in the marketplace. It's why so many progressives or SJW when you pull the thread it comes back to they really don't like market economies because they, personally, have no power in the marketplace and they want the power. All of this naval gazing only happens on social media platforms and rarely do I hear about it at conventions or game shops and when I do it's like "oh yea....I heard about that" not that they actually care. For a sizeable subset of the population their hobby is being in these online communities.

Frank should have apologized because it was the right thing to do. He said something and the person he said it to didn't take it in the way which me meant to say it. He should still apologize because that's the polite and right thing to do.

When it came to him posting on her FB posts something I learned last year was that people often post things to FB not to have a discussion or "debate" but to have their beliefs reinforced. Barbara Blackburn and I used to be friends on FB. She posts a lot of stuff from We are the 99%, Occupy Democrats, and other far-left outfits. The stuff she posts were those silly image macros and I would post about how the thing was silly, wrong, dishonest, whatever and I was never rude to her. But, in her mind, she didn't want disagreement. She wanted her belief system to be reinforced. When I posted something counter-to-that it came off because she didn't want to think critically about what she's posting. Which is fair. Sometimes people want to be partisan and when someone is in that mood if we aren't going to nod in agreement the best thing we can do is just to ignore it.

I've now gotten to the point where I ask somebody on social media did they post this to be agreed with or to start a discussion.

Frank posting on that girls wall when she didn't want a discussion wasn't smart. He didn't threaten her or anything like has been going around. I do find it odd that so many folks are jumping over themselves to appease someone who has never actually contributed to the hobby.

Quote from: S'mon;1002891I'd say Mentzer, unlike Kask & Monard, definitely was 'central to the action' with Red Box Basic & the BECMI line. It popularised D&D worldwide, so maybe he's more important to D&D outside the USA. But his contribution was definitely important. Personally I'd put him just behind Gygax & Arneson. You could argue eg Moldvay was more important to '80s D&D, but Mentzer was definitely important IMO.

Once we start trying to adjudicate who of the people at TSR were 'important,' we're trying to impute with knowledge that we do not have, supplemented with accounts from others we should not trust. If we can weather the Buck Rogers thread acknowledging that we really don't know how much of Lorraine Williams' reputation is justified because we don't have any primary documentation, then we can say that we don't know if Mentzer is a huge mover and shaker who is responsible for BECMI's profound impact (and of course argue whether it had any) or if he was just a guy who put some icing on the cake Moldvay and Gygax had already baked. We just plain don't know (and if we say we do, we had better back it up).

Quote from: Fiasco;1002881I recall Kask's DF threads from back in the day.  I found his conceited, self-important tone insufferable, especially when he mocked Arneson, someone who's contributions were far greater.  Kask clearly had a chip on his shoulder and a host of insecurities that could only be satisfied by seeking adulation on a gaming forum.  When said adulation wasn't rich and frequent enough, and when some people disagreed with him he threw his toys out of the cot.  All this to the guy who is at best a footnote to the hobby.

Honestly, virtually every person I've met from the gaming industry has, at least at some point, been absolutely insufferable online. Kask clearly wants to control the narrative on who was the 'real important guy' of Gygax vs. Arneson and I treat that as just as much biased information as everything else I just decried. But I don't consider myself to really know Kask for Kask either.

QuoteIt seems to be symptomatic of a particular section of the old crowd which most certainly includes both Mentzer and Gronan.  D&D was this big thing and they were there at the time but were never central to the action.  We're meant to respect them because 'they were there, man' and if someone isn't appropriately respectful they lose their shit.

Gronan's early post in this thread is a classic.  He wouldn't consult on D&D for $200/hour, when no-one, ever, offered so much as $10/hour.  

What really disappoints me is the number of fanboys who do literally tongue their peeholes and give them the adulation they crave.

Mostly I see Gronan as protective of Gary and Dave. Other than making sure we know he was instrumental in the creation of gelatinous cubes and the church of Crom (and apologizing for variable weapon damage), has he routinely tried to make himself out to be a big deal? You'd think he'd lose the tongue-my-peephole-isms and '[everyone else] can't shit unassisted' crotchety old man routine if he was all about promoting himself.

Nobody at TSR was important. Only the games they made have any importance to me. I'll give Gygax and Arneson their due for ushering RPGs into the world and giving me many hours of fun.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Rpg.net has a similar thread and fuck it's scary reading because not only is it a massive echo chamber and circle jerk. It's like your the enemy if you don't agree 10000% with their position.

That's exactly what happens when you have a totalitarian mindset. In Stalin's Russia if you didn't agree you where taken care of with a bullet in the head. In rpgnet they insta ban you, no questions asked, and please note that both where supposedly fighting for "the good of minorities". That was the marketing trick they used. The same that sjw use today.

In the sexual harassment thread you mention, according to one of the rpg.net members one of the mods there is actually a child rapist?!

Anyway back to game discussions the reason I joined the site in the first place.

Quote from: sureshot;1002906Tinder is one thing. Writing highly inappropriate stuff like Frank did to Jessica is another.

All I've seen are his original 3 messages that basically amounted to "lol ur cute want to talk?"

I didn't see any demands for nudes, offers of career advancement in exchange for sex, threats, etc.

QuoteAs for dating if you think going up to a one and going "hey baby I like your work and think your gorgeous too bad I'm too old" or any similarly worded along those lines are remotely appropriate let alone acceptable. Your either very cluesless about dating or have not actively dated since the 1970s or 1980s. Now that will get you a swift kick to the happy sacks, a drink thrown in your face, the police possibly called on you or all of that.

The idea that a lame pick-up line is justification for assault and possibly being arrested and charged with a crime is terrifying.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1002930All I've seen are his original 3 messages that basically amounted to "lol ur cute want to talk?"

I didn't see any demands for nudes, offers of career advancement in exchange for sex, threats, etc.



The idea that a lame pick-up line is justification for assault and possibly being arrested and charged with a crime is terrifying.

Yep, which is why I assumed the issue was the allegations that he was insensitive to assault victims. Are they actually mad about an awkward compliment from an old guy over the Internet?

Big Purple is going to single-handedly destroy all rpgs companies in that stupid thread of theirs. When someone is threatened to be banned there for wanting to know both sides the game is over.

Quote from: bat;1002943Big Purple is going to single-handedly destroy all rpgs companies in that stupid thread of theirs. When someone is threatened to be banned there for wanting to know both sides the game is over.

Nah, RPG companies (such as exist, are there maybe three that aren't  mom-and-pop shops?) have got nothing to do with most of this nonsense and most of this has no effect on anyone outside a Google group and a Twitter feed. I'm sorry I even heard about it.

Yeah. Wasn't the last internet blow up the one that was going to ruin tabletop roleplaying games forever and ever, no coming back, stick a fork in 'em, they're done? Anyone remember what that one was about?