Quote from: Voros;994403Regarding Cyborg Commando, that particular mess reads very Gygaxian to me, I suspect FM and Mohan were handed Gary's notes and struggled to create anything coherent out of them, from all sources it also seems Gary was pretty hostile to editorial changes (and his books reflect it).

IIRC Cyborg Commando was a bit of a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

Quote from: DavetheLost;996008...a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

Hah! Indeed. That might be said of many RPG products (including some that are true gems despite their flaws, like the 1e DMG).

Quote from: DavetheLost;996008IIRC Cyborg Commando was a bit of a rush job for publication, released before it had undergone sufficient editing.

There's lots to say about Cyborg Commando, but frankly it was all said a long time ago and it is a little like bashing THX1138--no one really has strong opinions on it, they have strong opinions on Lucas that they are transferring onto THX1138. Same with Cyborg Commando. It wasn't good, but neither were lots of things we don't feel the need to rehash.

The dice mechanic was at least an interesting concept on how to make skill overspecialization a case of diminishing returns on investment.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995625Jesus.

Well, the three did make one mistake, hanging out on DF instead of theRPGsite.

No way the old guard could handle the Wild West nature of this forum.

Their mistakes were the fact they weren't "Gygaxian" enough or at all. Ironic since it appears from everything I read neither was Gary. So what we get is the hero-wank fest of a certain segment of the RPG scene who think they have the market cornered.

There is no perfect game, there are no perfect rules.

Hell I feel a hell of a lot better as I'm not bound by such rigid dogma: freely adapt from everywhere to suit your needs. And despite the fact that I like my game a certain way, I don't need to tell others their preferred play style is wrong.

To close I'd be curious to converse with Zeb. He really gets the Taliban going as the focus of their ire!

I do think that's a bit unfair. It's Lorraine Williams who deserves the blame.

Also, calling Cyborg Commando "badly edited" is the understatement of the year.

Quote from: RPGPundit;996974I do think that's a bit unfair. It's Lorraine Williams who deserves the blame.

Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Quote from: Willmark;997042Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Zeb did fine. 2e is fine. It's not the 'next-edition-after-1e' I would have made, but it addressed the common complaints at the time without doing a massive overhaul (and supposedly backwards compatibility was one of his assigned parameters).

The only non-negative thing I'll say about Williams is that just about everything I know about her is after-the-fact anecdotes from people who already hate her (that so many hate her says something, but it doesn't verify any individual tale). Since Playing at the World came out, I'm much more interested in what can be proven vs. what validates my preconceived notions. And there's very little documented about her other than she headed the company as it went bust.

Quote from: Willmark;997042Yep.

Zeb did a commendable job in a no win situation. There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

Quote from: Willie the Duck;997053Zeb did fine. 2e is fine. It's not the 'next-edition-after-1e' I would have made, but it addressed the common complaints at the time without doing a massive overhaul (and supposedly backwards compatibility was one of his assigned parameters).

The only non-negative thing I'll say about Williams is that just about everything I know about her is after-the-fact anecdotes from people who already hate her (that so many hate her says something, but it doesn't verify any individual tale). Since Playing at the World came out, I'm much more interested in what can be proven vs. what validates my preconceived notions. And there's very little documented about her other than she headed the company as it went bust.

   To be honest, I'd really like to hear Williams' side of the story one of these days. Most of what 'everybody knows' about her seems to come from Gygax, who had reason to be bitter, Dancey, who had motives to paint her in a negative light and himself as Savior of D&D and hasn't always been trustworthy, or just general gossip and innuendo.

   She did make several bad decisions, especially near the end, but she also did come up with positive ideas--not only the Encyclopedia Magica, apparently, but the format of the 1991 'Black Box' intro D&D set--and could be surprisingly decent to the employees. From an interview Monte Cook did with William W. Connors (archived at http://archive.li/VcVfD):

QuoteBill: I guess I should tell my favorite story about my time at TSR. It's unique, because it makes [CEO] Lorraine Williams (the woman many people -- almost certainly correctly -- blame for running the company into the ground) out to be a hero. Because of that, a lot of people don't believe it. I swear to you, though, it is 100 percent true and also explains why the company never had a more dedicated employee than I. I stayed with that sinking ship to the end and would never have left under Lorraine's watch.

Not too long after I started working at TSR, my wife was hospitalized with a very serious condition. We had two young boys (I think the oldest was three) and were really still getting used to life in the Midwest (we had moved to Lake Geneva from the east coast). It became apparent that Kathy was going to be hospitalized on and off for an extended period of time. In fact, for a good many weeks I would pick the kids up from day care, take them home, put them to bed, and then wait for a phone call telling me that my wife was dead. It was, to say the least, not a good time in my life.

It also became clear that I was not going to be able to continue working full time. Thus, with a very heavy heart, I went in to the office of the vice president and turned in my resignation. "I can't tell you how sorry I am to do this," I said, "because I have never had a job I liked so much or worked with such wonderful people." With tears in my eyes, I went upstairs and started to pack up my office.

A few minutes later, I got a phone call from Mike [Martin] (the aforementioned VP). I went down to his office and was informed that my resignation was not being accepted. He had called Lorraine (she was in Germany at a trade show) and told her what I had said. The long and the short of it was that TSR advanced me as much vacation time as I needed to care for my wife on the condition that I get in to the office as much as I could. Over the course of the next six weeks or so, I was in the office about once or twice a week. During that time, I never missed a paycheck and everyone else on the staff pitched in to keep my projects on schedule. I can't even begin to imagine what would have happened to my family if it were not for the understanding and generosity of Lorraine.

  Digging a little deeper suggests that she was a more complex person than many gamers would like to admit.

Lorraine Williams is the one that made the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG happen, and the Buck Rogers XXVc RPG was instrumental in getting me into the hobby, so she can't be all bad.

I have negative interest in hearing Lorraine Williams side. She should products to gamers while also having a negative opinion of them. Why would I want to hear anything that kind of hypocrite has to say.

Quote from: sureshot;997108I have negative interest in hearing Lorraine Williams side. She should products to gamers while also having a negative opinion of them. Why would I want to hear anything that kind of hypocrite has to say.

  Do we have a solid source for this? Or is it just the kind of 'gossip and innuendo' that's grown up around her?

Quote from: Willmark;997042There is really nothing wrong with the 2nd edition rules and cleaned a lot of issues up. Most people who dislike the edition complain about the tone and the move to more G rated fare, Forgotten Reealms as a setting etc. All of which really has nothing to do with the rules, and are easy fixed IMO by using 1edition rulings.

I agree about the tone and presentation of 2e being a major factor in why I prefer 1e over 2e.  However, where the rules differ, I almost always prefer the 1e variation, so I wouldn't say that the rules have nothing to do with it. I think 2e is undeniably clearer, but clearer isn't always better (e.g., 2e initiative is far clearer, but I prefer 1e initiative - or at least my interpretation of 1e initiative). I also think 2e included some good ideas/concepts, but I often found the implementation of those ideas bland and lacking (e.g., the way 2e implemented spell schools and specialist MUs, etc).

Quote from: Willmark;997042But Lorraine Williams I think she something that every gamer can agree on in terms of dislike. Although I have a hard time squaring up that she came up with the idea for the Encyclopedia Magicas which are immensely useful...

I've never got the hate for Williams. Seems a lot unsubstaniated claims are projected onto her based on secondhand hearsay by people who have every reason in the world to hate her (Gygax, Arneson, Mentzer, Kask).

Meanwhile those who actually worked under her like Bruce Heard, Michal Breault and Zeb Cook don't have much bad to say about her and it's not like any of them have to lie today to protect their jobs.

Sure she ripped off Gygax but from Jon Peterson's excellent essay on his ouster it seems he was helping drive the business into the ground (note Person finds that Gygax was in favour of buying the infamous needlework company he later claims to have opposed) and was out to fuck over and blame the Blumes for everything (he promised to buy them out and them strung them along for weeks or months), just as he fucked over Arneson business-wise.

In business people often behave terribly and almost everything that happened to Gygax he had done earlier to others, including using copyright threats against other creators. Karma is a motherfucker indeed.

Williams brought the company back from the brink (I find Gygax's claims that he did via OE and UA highly suspect) and kept it alive for another decade plus. She obviously wasn't the creative person that Gygax was but she was a much better business person even if TSR eventually tanked. From all signs if Gygax had retained power TSR would have tanked when the first RPG bubble burst. I mean, have you actually read that shitty D&D film script he was banking on?

It is also notable that whenever a proper reporter or historian has looked into it, both Ewalt and Peterson, have found Gygax's version of events with Williams to be full of shit.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;997121Do we have a solid source for this? Or is it just the kind of 'gossip and innuendo' that's grown up around her?

Course not. It is only Gygax's friends who all left TSR with him who have ever claimed it.