Quote from: Benoist;383763Yes I have, bitch. The fact that most of us, and most gamers in general, for that matter, have been introduced to the hobby by relatives and older friends, completely invalidates your argument that somehow parents playing an RPG will "spoil them" from some "rite of passage" that would make them better gamers for it.

This is pure bullshit, and you know it. Stop snorting from Ron's Coke stash!

Again, "relatives" can mean a lot of things. It can mean your older sister's boyfriend, the cool uncle, etc.
Usually, it means someone who is a little outside of the safety zone of mommy and daddy.
That's part of the appeal of the game to a 12 or 13 year old boy, that its the opportunity to play out hero-fantasies, and sometimes revenge-fantasies, and its got books with kickass illustrations of guns and the chance to be ultraviolent, and pictures of women almost showing their boobies. None of those are things you can typically talk about with your Mom.

Again, seriously, is the majority of this fucking thread trying to HONEST TO GOD tell me to my fucking face that the hobby would be the fucking same to them, if their early RPG experience had consisted of structured play from 3-5 pm supervised by your Mom as the GM, with G-rated adventures and no swearing or big guns or even occasional boobies?

RPGpundit

Quote from: Benoist;383771I'm curious: would you call Ernie or Luke Gygax, for instance, "maladjusted gamers"?

Because children playing with their DAD has been happening since... before OD&D was actually put to print, you know?

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that they were older than FIVE when they started playing with Gary.

What's more, Gygax is something of a special case, wouldn't you say?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;383775Again, seriously, is the majority of this fucking thread trying to HONEST TO GOD tell me to my fucking face that the hobby would be the fucking same to them, if their early RPG experience had consisted of structured play from 3-5 pm supervised by your Mom as the GM, with G-rated adventures and no swearing or big guns or even occasional boobies?

RPGpundit

Fallacy of the excluded middle, Pundit. I can't say if my gaming would have beeen different, because roleplaying games didn't exist when I was that age, and I was 21 when I started in '77. What I can say is that our games with our son were never G rated. No sexy boobs - that would be lost on a kid that age - but plenty of violence and gore, big guns, and the occasional swear.  

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;383781Fallacy of the excluded middle, Pundit. I can't say if my gaming would have beeen different, because roleplaying games didn't exist when I was that age, and I was 21 when I started in '77. What I can say is that our games with our son were never G rated. No sexy boobs - that would be lost on a kid that age - but plenty of violence and gore, big guns, and the occasional swear.  

-clash

I was actually just about to ask you that very thing.  I would suggest, though, that this would make you the probable outlier, Clash. I have trouble imagining that the typical parent would be comfortable running a game with their young child that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;383783.................... that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.

RPGPundit

The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is  THEY DON'T.


If typical means average of all games across the states or North and South America - then the average game is probably mucvh m,ore G or PG-rated than what you are assuming.

Profanity, violence, and sexuality are never reuirements for a good RPG session. They might get mentioned or touched upon - but they're not required.

 Hell, you can 'sexuality' or even romance that a younger kid is okay with. Rem,ember the movie "The Princess Bride"? By the end of movie the little boy is okay with a little bit of kissing of the main characters.


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383773I'm a little loathe to comment on the specifics of an anecdotal situation, because of course its your anecdote, and I can't know the facts about it.

However, if we take what you're saying here at face value, it SOUNDS like what your father did for you was to be shown the game, and then left to your own devices, to run YOUR games, with YOUR friends, without constant parental interference. And it was shown to you when you were 11, which I still think a bit young, but certainly a more reasonable age than many accounts I've heard.
This is very different than most of the "gamer parents" accounts, where parents take their 4 or 5 or 6 year old kid and basically run the game for them, and turn their family into their own little personal gaming group.

You aren't completely clear if by "introduced" you mean that your father actually ran the game with you and your brothers, though I'm going to assume that's the case. If so, the real question is whether if your dad had shown you the books, lent them to you and your friends, and you'd run a game session as kids together, without parental supervision, do you think things would have turned out any different?
I suspect not, in your case, I suspect you'd have turned out to be just as much of a gamer, if not moreso.
On the other hand, had your dad been a different person than he is, and a little less willing to leave you to your own devices, I could see how you could have come to see RPGs as a "kids'" game that your weird dad liked, that you would drop like a hot potato in adolescence.

Again, I'm not saying that every single kid introduced to gaming by their parents is not going to be a gamer as an adult. Shit, some people are just BOUND to be gamers, and they'd be playing it no matter what their circumstances or how they came about it. In other cases, though, the method of introduction is important and affects what will happen in the long term.

RPGPundit

Fuck, just had another essay long response when I accidentally closed the browser window before posting!!

In response to your response. Yes I think your probably right at the very least partly. It was a bit of both, he ran a good few campaigns then we kind of took over. He always wanted to get back involved again but as he put it 'didn't want to cramp our style'. My brother started at age 7 as did my youngest brother when he hit 7.

I think him running the session made a difference. He had read through the books and understood them and showed us what we were meant to do. Quite frankly at that age I would probably have struggled on my own and been put off by the experience. My brother who was only 7 played because I was playing but got it immediately. I still remember that first session, The Keep on the Borderlands. Years later I came across the character sheets and marvelled at the pictures my brother and I had drawn on them of our characters. Later my brother and I played with a mixture of his and my friends. It was a bit weird at times because of the 4 year age difference between him and me and our friends but generally it worked. As we got older the age difference became more and more meaningless.

I think I am understanding what your getting at. Your essentially saying that anyone who uses the family (read kids, nephews etc.) as a proxy for a lack of playing group and puts or exerts influence on their children to play with them for thier own selfish reasons risks losing them as players and active members of the hobby at a later date. I'm thinking this is because either/or/and: 1. they are see roleplaying as something they don't enjoy because well they just don't, they probably wouldn't be gamers whatever the circumstance and this behaviour just reinforces it. 2. They see [insert RPG here] my lame Mum and Dad made me play as lame by association (or possibly childish etc) 3. They rebel against something they associate with parental authority. And for the most part I would agree with that.

However I don't see those parents as being the norm, the standard against which most are measured against. Again, its my experience, but most gamers I know are responsible parents and wouldn't force their kids to do something they didn't want to out of pure selfish entertainment any more than any other random group of parents would force their kids to play football or play chess or go to drama classes when they didn't want to. Most parents will respond to an interest that is already there and expressed by their children. Whether they enjoy it as well is irrelevant. At the most they might suggest something and if there is no interest fine. Why on earth would you force them when they don't want to do it?

There are always some that behave that way, there may even be socio-economic or socio-political groups in which that behaviour is more likely, I have no idea. But overall I find it difficult to believe that a large majority of parents behave that way about any past time any more or less that roleplaying.

My parents introduced us to Poker, Canasta, Climbing, Water Skiing, Sci Fi and Fantasy, a love of film, canoeing, sailing and cooking mean curries.

All activities they enjoyed too, that they thought we would like. And for the most part they were right. (OK I didn't like their choice in music which was totally lame!!)

When we rebelled as inevitably three boys did, it was for all sorts of reasons. None of which effected our past times or hobbies. We just stopped playing or doing them with our parents, at least while we were rebelling and sometimes not even then.

Why would we have given up any of our past times, any of the things we enjoyed? Poker, no way I was playing poker with the very friends my parents disapproved of. Canasta, nope, (my friends and I sadly thought it was some great new card game that was going to take the world by storm, sad but true), climbing, hell no, I was climbing dangerous tall buildings again with the very same bunch of friends. D&D, nope I was staying late at friends houses drinking and playing D&D, Top Secret and Traveller. OK the canoeing and sailing suffered because we didn't have the money to do it by ourselves. But you get the drift.

While I agree that the scenario you are pointing out has the potential to put kids off (and lets face it there are always going to be some shits who treat their kids like that whatever), I think in practice that's probably not the case in a majority of cases. Again the picture might be different geographically, the US may differ to the UK, being from the UK this scenario just seems fairly remote. It feels like your reaching from my point of view.

While I haven't come, directly anyway, across the phenomenon of gamer parents who get their whole family involved with their game, I suspect that: 1. They are a minority of gamer parents, 2. That a majority of those that do probably run a separate game for their kids rather than include them with their adult friends (that would be just weird especially for those who are 11/12 or under) and 3. Are responding to their kids interest.

I see nothing wrong in indulging in that, at their level. I wouldn't put them through a full on D&D (whatever edition) game I would do something simpler, probably with just two/three stats and a really simple method of resolving actions, almost fighting fantasy. In fact most of the time i wouldn't even use a mechanic. Something they would understand and that would be fun, for them.

I suspect, but off course I can't prove, that a majority of Gamer parents who introduce their kids probably do it in that way. And that a minority are using them as a surrogate for their lack of gaming group. Fuck, it would be tedious in the extreme trying to get my 6 year old to go through one of my intricate winding double crossing political and horribly violent fantasy campaigns that I prefer to GM, she just wouldn't get it and it would be an exercise in futility and frustration for everyone.

However indulging her desire to be the child that solves the 'Mystery of the Disappearing Cows' (don't ask it was her title) was fantastic for all concerned. (OK it wasn't my usual cup of tea, I don't like fairies it had no polotics, no horrific backstabbing NPCs you thought were you friend and no gore and violence or mind numbing horror, but on the other hand I enjoyed it because she did. Something that most parents will empathise with.) (For anyone that wonders it was the Mad Cow-napper and his clockwork tunnelling machine that nabbed them from below. Kids they're just full of surprises).

For the phenomenon you describe to threaten the hobby in any way would mean a majority of players that have children would have to behave in that way (you would also have to presume a majority of players are introduced by their parents to the hobby, which I suspect is just plain wrong, I have no proof but I suspect most are introduced by their peers.) I just don't see that amongst anyone I know who plays and can't see how RPG players would behave any differently to anyone else with children.

Mind you I don't go to conventions (there aren't that many in the UK) so most of the gaming parents I see are friends or acquaintances.

While I think the phenomenon you describe could and does happen, I just don't see it as widespread or as big a threat that you do.

Does this jibe with anyone else's experiences (anecdotally or not)?

Hey what do you know, I recreated my essay! Result!

Quote from: RPGPundit;383783I was actually just about to ask you that very thing.  I would suggest, though, that this would make you the probable outlier, Clash. I have trouble imagining that the typical parent would be comfortable running a game with their young child that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.

RPGPundit

Well, I don't believe in nerfing stuff for kids. Never did, never will. Simplifying to an extent, yes - in setting, goals, and relationships - but it's a  difference in degree, not in kind.

-clash

Quote from: Koltar;383792The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is  THEY DON'T.


If typical means average of all games across the states or North and South America - then the average game is probably mucvh m,ore G or PG-rated than what you are assuming.

Profanity, violence, and sexuality are never reuirements for a good RPG session. They might get mentioned or touched upon - but they're not required.

 Hell, you can 'sexuality' or even romance that a younger kid is okay with. Rem,ember the movie "The Princess Bride"? By the end of movie the little boy is okay with a little bit of kissing of the main characters.


- Ed C.

Sexuality is something that can vary from group to group (and I find too much overt sex in an RPG kind of distateful myself); but its pretty hard to argue the same with violence. In 9-10ths of all RPGs, you're going around killing shitloads of living things.
Profanity is also a personal matter, but in most fantasy games characters are typically at least implied to be drinking and wenching on a regular basis, stealing, and engaging in all kinds of other activities that I know at least my own mother wouldn't really approve of.
Not to mention, in many RPGs you have drug use, the occult, and more than occasionally you have player characters who are villains or evil.
I suppose most geek parents MIGHT be more liberal than your typical soccer mom about these things; but I still can't help but think that even your average geek parent would be a bit conflicted in showing all of this kind of activity to their kids, particularly very young kids.
What that means is that if kids are introduced to RPGs at a very early age, they are likely to be introduced to a very santized kind of game, a "Disneyfied RPG", if you will.

RPGPundit

To post a total outsider's perspective (or rather, a non-gamer's perspective, since at this point she's not a "total" outsider per se, having even played a few game sessions) The Wench has commented on the subject of this thread saying she doesn't understand why if we had kids I wouldn't just force my (our) kids to play RPGs.  She points out that lots of parents get their kids to take piano lessons, she herself went through several years of Ukranian Dancing, which at times she wanted to do and at other times didn't, but as an adult she's glad her mom made her keep going in it.  She doesn't quite get why RPGs wouldn't be something similar.

I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.

RPGPundit

An argument in favor of the Wench's point of view:

I could see some parents thinking its better their kids play a game with 4 or 5 other people at a table rathen than play video games staring at a screen all day.
A minor argument can be made in favor of interaction with other people is better than solitary videogame play. (and there ARE starting to be way too many kinds of that have a remote game controller addiction in some form)


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383766And the threat is in that gamers' kids (or nephews/nieces, or little brothers/sisters) would be natural candidates to become gamers themselves, but not if its done wrong, and not if its done for the adult gamer's self interest rather than for the good of the kid and the hobby (which to me are one and the same here).

If it's done wrong? Sure, no one's going to argue with that. But you're saying it should not be done at all, just in case it might be done wrong. Most everyone else seems to agree that the wrong ones are the exception, not the rule.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383770It might not be very good, but trust me, it can't look any more pathetic than "mirror ron"; that's the rhetorical equivalent of wetting yourself as a defense mechanism in the hopes the other guy will just go away.

Meh, you just ignore any argument you don't like anyway, so why not just ignore this rhetoric as well?

Quote from: Koltar;383792The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is  THEY DON'T.

Here's the big fat truth right here. Pundit's assuming all games must be the same as his games. They're not.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383864I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.

I certainly don't agree with forcing activities like that on kids, but it's not because it spoils their rite-of-passageness or some other bullshit. It's because kids are people too, and in terms of passtimes and hobbies should be allowed to do what they want to do.

Just think of the converse; would you not allow your kid to start the piano at 5 years old? He's really interested and really wants to try it, but you say "No, son, learning to play the piano is a rite of passage and you're not old enough yet." You seem to think such a thing will build his interest in the subject so that when he's "old enough", he'll appreciate it that much more. I'd suggest it's more likely to kill his interest rather than increase it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383864To post a total outsider's perspective (or rather, a non-gamer's perspective, since at this point she's not a "total" outsider per se, having even played a few game sessions) The Wench has commented on the subject of this thread saying she doesn't understand why if we had kids I wouldn't just force my (our) kids to play RPGs.  She points out that lots of parents get their kids to take piano lessons, she herself went through several years of Ukranian Dancing, which at times she wanted to do and at other times didn't, but as an adult she's glad her mom made her keep going in it.  She doesn't quite get why RPGs wouldn't be something similar.

I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.

RPGPundit

Well, I wouldn't agree with her either, because I'm not seeing RPGs as comparable to piano lessons or classic dancing or karate. Besides, I know enough bad stories of kids who were forced to do these things and lived to tell the tale of how wonderful it was to work on stuff outside of school you didn't want to do in the first place.

No. RPGs are a hobby. A pure entertainment. If my kids don't want to play, that'll be fine with me. If they do want to play, however, I don't see any particular issue in playing games with them.

So, if I got your viewpoint right, your concern is that being dragged to the RPG table by a parent might have a deleterious effect on the hobby's numbers, in the long term, because kids might dislike being "forced" to play by said parent. Is that correct?

If this is it, I'm not quite convinced.

A minority of people will be exposed to RPGs in childhood.

Of these, a minority will be exposed to RPGs by their parents.

Of these, a minority will be soured by the experience.

Of the minority soured by the experience, an unknown number may eventually revisit RPGs and decide their parents were just crappy GMs/players, but rehabilitate the concept, and go on to a gamer's life.

What I mean to say is, the scenario you describe, while plausible is probably in the minority of a minority of a very small minority.

But of course, none of us have any hard data on that, so it's all rampant speculation and bullshit.

Though I confess I derive a certain perverse amusement from your angry reaction to being called "mirror Ron". Dissected any good bat penises lately? Or is it bat vaginas, since you're mirror Ron?

Quote from: The Butcher;383887But of course, none of us have any hard data on that, so it's all rampant speculation and bullshit.

Yeah, exactly. I see a few things going on.

1) Pundit takes a fringe extreme--parents who coerce their children into playing RPGs as a substitute for an adult group to game with--and magnifies it into some large threat to gaming in general. Who knows how often this happens? My suspicion is that it is very rare. It requires that adults be unable to develop a social network large enough to find other like-minded adults and that they consider gaming with their pre-adolescent children an equitable substitute. Sure, I suppose this may happen, but I'm betting it's like you say, a minority of a minority of a minority. Getting all frothy at the mouth about it just makes Pundit look ridiculous, which seems to be apparent to everyone on the thread except Pundit. The idea that parents may play RPGs with their children because their children enjoy and parents enjoy doing things with their children for its own sake doesn't seem to occur to him as the more likely scenario.

2) Pundit sees RPGs as an activity as inseperable from its content. All "proper" RPGs must contain guns, gory violence, profanity, and big-titted babes. This is manifestly false, and I think this stereotype does far more harm to RPGs as a healthy hobby than parents playing games with their kids. This idea that parents who play Toon, or Marvel Superheros, or Prime Time Adventures (oops sorry that's not a "real" RPG), or Pokemon the RPG, or whatever the kid likes to play, are somehow sullying the "purity" of RPGs is a crock of shit. It's an entertainment medium, plain and simple, capable of conveying a great diversity of content.

3) There is some sort of "correct" way to be introduced to RPGs. This correct way seems to require that the new player is an adolescent boy, and RPGs should cater to adolescent male wish-fulfillment fantasies. Adolescent girls and pre- or post- adolescents of both genders are implicitly doing it wrong. I think this ties in with point #2 above. Not only do I disagree that there is any sort of "correct" way to be introduced to RPGs, but I sincerely doubt that playing Toon with your parents as a child is going to damage your ability or desire to play Heavy Metal D&D with your buddies as a teenager.

I wonder, Pundit, when you post something retarded on a thread, and everyone unanimously lines up to point out that you're being ridiculous, does it cross your mind at all that you might be wrong? Or does it simply reinforce some internal self-image of being a lone voice crying out in the wilderness?

Quote from: Fifth Element;383871Just think of the converse; would you not allow your kid to start the piano at 5 years old? He's really interested and really wants to try it, but you say "No, son, learning to play the piano is a rite of passage and you're not old enough yet." You seem to think such a thing will build his interest in the subject so that when he's "old enough", he'll appreciate it that much more. I'd suggest it's more likely to kill his interest rather than increase it.

Its the opposite situation; there are certain skills which, if not learned early, can never be fully developed. Piano, ballet, etc., these are things that parents HAVE to force on their kids to a certain extent if the kids show some interest, because if the kid doesn't learn the fundamentals as a kid, otherwise it'll be too late.

But RPGs aren't like that.

RPGPundit