Found this on my dining room table after my kids went to bed. Looks like something one of my daughters was doing. I got a kick out of it.
(http://www.philotomy.com/images/charsheetphoto.jpg)
"Her hudge BRAIN."
That is awesome.
Making their own rough character sheets??
Thats pretty damn cool.
- ED c.
She is awesome. :D
That's awesome!!!
"Early draft of D&D 5e found on dinning table."
Creative kids rock!
Before my parents actually bought me my first RPG (Basic D&D "black box", circa 1991), I too was making "cargo cult" character sheets and even dungeons.
I'd say it's a very auspicious beginning, but I'm clearly biased. :)
Trouble is Philotomy didn't point out his daughter is 28 and just started working for WotC :D
Quote from: jibbajibba;381856Trouble is Philotomy didn't point out his daughter is 28 and just started working for WotC :D
Ba-doom-doom-tssssss
Seriously awesome kid!
I am blown away! that is just too cool!
Thanks for sharing that, PJ! :D
-clash
Awesome.
Philotomy Jurament, she deserves hugs anyways - but that should earn her a big one.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;381813(http://www.philotomy.com/images/charsheetphoto.jpg)
...
...
Pure, utter, complete Win.
That is all. :)
Her W is 89 but her O is zero? Dude, you're raising a minmaxer!
That's so cool, PJ.
As mentioned above, you gotta love that "Wepons - Her hudge BRAINS" :D
Thanks for sharing! Nicest gaming-related thing I've seen in weeks.
Quote from: Windjammer;381957Thanks for sharing! Nicest gaming-related thing I've seen in weeks.
Ditto! :D
I'm trying to figure out what the stats are...
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;382032I'm trying to figure out what the stats are...
You are not alone... ;)
Size
Wits
Prowess
Occult
Humanity
?
When do we start making characters? :)
Grabbing some dice here.
That's awesome. It's only a matter of time before my kids are gamers; they play with my minis incessantly. My daughter especially likes the giant Cthulhu with the blood dripping down its belly.
Quote from: Fifth Element;382065My daughter especially likes the giant Cthulhu with the blood dripping down its belly.
I pray for your sake this inspires her to become a gamer, and not an unlicensed abortion assistant... ;)
Thought you guys might get a kick out of it, too.
I asked for some info about the character when the kids got home from school. Apparently it was a bit of a collaboration, with my older daughter coming up with the game and helping my younger daughter make the character. My youngest son apparently assisted with the coloring, too.
Anyway, the stats were reported to me as follows:
S = Strength
W = Wisdom
P = Power (asking for clarification, I was informed this was like "raging" power, so I figure it's aggression/rage, like the Hulk)
O = Optimism
H = Hope
So Sister Kate is a wise, hopeful, and optimistic character who apparently keeps a cool head and uses her big brain (and her doughty band of followers) to address the obstacles she runs into.
Quote from: winkingbishop;382059Size
Wits
Prowess
Occult
Humanity
?
When do we start making characters? :)
Oooh, those are good, too. :)
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382068Thought you guys might get a kick out of it, too.
I asked for some info about the character when the kids got home from school. Apparently it was a bit of a collaboration, with my older daughter coming up with the game and helping my younger daughter make the character. My youngest son apparently assisted with the coloring, too.
Anyway, the stats were reported to me as follows:
S = Strength
W = Wisdom
P = Power (asking for clarification, I was informed this was like "raging" power, so I figure it's aggression/rage, like the Hulk)
O = Optimism
H = Hope
So Sister Kate is a wise, hopeful, and optimistic character who apparently keeps a cool head and uses her big brain (and her doughty band of followers) to address the obstacles she runs into.
But... but... what stat covers shooting rockets at robot ninja? This game isn't going the way I wanted at all!
:D
Your kids sound awesome. Sort of sheds a different light on the benefits of reproduction.
Quote from: Benoist;382066I pray for your sake this inspires her to become a gamer, and not an unlicensed abortion assistant... ;)
Dude...
She likes the giant space spider Star Wars mini too, because it's laying a disgusting blob of eggs.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382068I asked for some info about the character when the kids got home from school. Apparently it was a bit of a collaboration, with my older daughter coming up with the game and helping my younger daughter make the character. My youngest son apparently assisted with the coloring, too.
Anyway, the stats were reported to me as follows:
S = Strength
W = Wisdom
P = Power (asking for clarification, I was informed this was like "raging" power, so I figure it's aggression/rage, like the Hulk)
O = Optimism
H = Hope
So Sister Kate is a wise, hopeful, and optimistic character who apparently keeps a cool head and uses her big brain (and her doughty band of followers) to address the obstacles she runs into.
Very inventive stuff. Very cool. When are we playing?
Quote from: Fifth Element;382072Dude...
She likes the giant space spider Star Wars mini too, because it's laying a disgusting blob of eggs.
My condolences. LOL :D
Quote from: Benoist;382075Very inventive stuff. Very cool. When are we playing?
Size d6
1) large squirrels, small people
2) most humans, animated chair, robot ninja
3) horse, vending machines
4) ogres, trucks, most blob aliens
5) small transforming robots, houses, dragons
6) mecha, Godzilla & Friends
WHOP d% in order
Cool Powers #(1d4-1)
1) Utility belt
2) Ninja skills
3) Hudge brain
4) Ray guns
5) Magic
6) Rocket pack
7) Super computer
8) Bendy body
9) Pet Robot
10) Pet Dragon
11) Speak with sea life
12) Shape changing
13) Secretly an alien
14) Own a spaceship
15) Extra limbs or tail
16) Flaming kickball
17) Flaming sword
18) Freezing breath
19) Shoot rockets
20) Henchmen
21) ... will need expansion
Hmm. Both her Optimism and Hope (best character stats ever, btw) are at 50, which leads me to wonder, is her glass half-empty or half-full?
Quote from: The Shaman;382132Hmm. Both her Optimism and Hope (best character stats ever, btw) are at 50, which leads me to wonder, is her glass half-empty or half-full?
Mature beyond her years, looks like. :)
Quote from: winkingbishop;382081Size d6
1) large squirrels, small people
2) most humans, animated chair, robot ninja
3) horse, vending machines
4) ogres, trucks, most blob aliens
5) small transforming robots, houses, dragons
6) mecha, Godzilla & Friends
WHOP d% in order
Cool Powers #(1d4-1)
1) Utility belt
2) Ninja skills
3) Hudge brain
4) Ray guns
5) Magic
6) Rocket pack
7) Super computer
8) Bendy body
9) Pet Robot
10) Pet Dragon
11) Speak with sea life
12) Shape changing
13) Secretly an alien
14) Own a spaceship
15) Extra limbs or tail
16) Flaming kickball
17) Flaming sword
18) Freezing breath
19) Shoot rockets
20) Henchmen
21) ... will need expansion
OK.
I roll... a Mecha... that speaks with sea life, owns a spaceship and has a freezing breath! Next!
Man, just when I thought I'd sworn off the whole procreatin' thing... this makes me wanna run right out and make a baby with someone!
Do it! The world needs more gamers. Just make sure to involve a random table if possible. ;)
Quote from: Simlasa;382138Man, just when I thought I'd sworn off the whole procreatin' thing... this makes me wanna run right out and make a baby with someone!
Start with the Random Harlot Table . . .
Quote from: Benoist;382133Mature beyond her years, looks like. :)
Indeed.
Quote from: The Shaman;382193Start with the Random Harlot Table . . .
At first misread that as 'Random Merlot Table'... which kinda also made sense.
Optimism and Hope? Strength and Power? Tell your kids that they suck at game design, with their useless redundancies.
Seriously, though, this is pretty cute. And what makes it cute and not sad is that its something they came up with themselves, and not something they were goaded into doing by their gamer parent. I swear to god, there's going to be a whole generation of geek's kids who are going to end up giving thousands and thousands of dollars to therapists to deal with how their loser dad made them play RPGs because he couldn't find adults to play with...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;382268Optimism and Hope? Strength and Power? Tell your kids that they suck at game design, with their useless redundancies.
Seriously, though, this is pretty cute. And what makes it cute and not sad is that its something they came up with themselves, and not something they were goaded into doing by their gamer parent. I swear to god, there's going to be a whole generation of geek's kids who are going to end up giving thousands and thousands of dollars to therapists to deal with how their loser dad made them play RPGs because he couldn't find adults to play with...
RPGPundit
:hmm: Insight into Pundits childhood? Chilling. :D
I like to think the "soilgers" are earth elementals. :)
This is the adorablest thing to ever be posted on this site or perhaps any gaming site. I salute your youngin' raisin' skills, good sir!
Quote from: RPGPundit;382268I swear to god, there's going to be a whole generation of geek's kids who are going to end up giving thousands and thousands of dollars to therapists to deal with how their loser dad made them play RPGs because he couldn't find adults to play with...
Pundit, stick with railing against imaginary enemies and regurgitating Nineties political slogans, 'cause you're waaaaaaaayyyyy out of your depth giving advice to parents.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382268I swear to god, there's going to be a whole generation of geek's kids who are going to end up giving thousands and thousands of dollars to therapists to deal with how their loser dad made them play RPGs because he couldn't find adults to play with...
Mommy only loves me when I'm an Elf!!!
Quote from: Spinachcat;382306Mommy only loves me when I'm an Elf!!!
Thats because she wants him to have elf-confidence.
- Ed C.
Quote from: The Shaman;382303Pundit, stick with railing against imaginary enemies and regurgitating Nineties political slogans, 'cause you're waaaaaaaayyyyy out of your depth giving advice to parents.
I just imagine parents not playing games with their children because some anonymous guy with a made-up persona would object on the intarwebz.
:hmm: Tough choice.
Quote from: Benoist;382313I just imagine parents not playing games with their children because some anonymous guy with a made-up persona would object on the intarwebz.
:hmm: Tough choice.
But he might call you a swine! Screw spending time with your kids, you can't have people insulting you on the internet.
Quote from: Fifth Element;382316But he might call you a swine! Screw spending time with your kids, you can't have people insulting you on the internet.
That's right! How could I forget?! :D
Now compare the pic in the OP to this (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17115). Notice any discrepencies?
Quote from: The Shaman;382303Pundit, stick with railing against imaginary enemies and regurgitating Nineties political slogans, 'cause you're waaaaaaaayyyyy out of your depth giving advice to parents.
I think it was less about giving advice and more about aiming a barb at "losers who can't find adults to game with and have to enlist their kids in order to game." However, I suspect that target may fall in the "imaginary" category.
Are we going to get some expanded character creation rules? I swear, those kids are just trying to get us to buy the new edition.
So many things to say here.
1. Chorus - cute stuff.
2. I rarely use this phrase but LOL here, even the Pundit made a...oh, he was serious. Awkward...
3. Make sure hp means hp means hit points and not something like hope power:)
Quote from: IMLegend;382289:hmm: Insight into Pundits childhood? Chilling. :D
Hardly. I grew up with parents who were initially ignorant and later tried to forbid me from playing ("satanic panic", don't you know?).
Of course, by then I was at an age to do it anyways, and you know what their forbidding it did? IT MADE ME WANT TO PLAY IT MORE.
On the other hand, I can imagine few things that would have made it more likely for me to drop D&D like a hot potato than if my parents had said "this game is awesome, you can play it with us".
Which is what an entire generation of geek dads are doing to their children, often at frighteningly young ages, when they're not really capable of defending themselves or even understanding how they're being USED by their dads as a substitute for a real, adult, gaming group.
Its very little difference, in my mind, from the moms who put their little princesses in Child Beauty Pageants. The little girls might actually think they like it at the time, but in more than a small number of cases its bound to leave them fucked up in the years to come.
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Shaman;382303Pundit, stick with railing against imaginary enemies and regurgitating Nineties political slogans, 'cause you're waaaaaaaayyyyy out of your depth giving advice to parents.
I probably shouldn't, but.. ok, I'll bite: Nineties political slogans?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar;382308Thats because she wants him to have elf-confidence.
- Ed C.
Jesus Christ. This one made me chuckle, though. Your puns may be improving, Ed.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382546On the other hand, I can imagine few things that would have made it more likely for me to drop D&D like a hot potato than if my parents had said "this game is awesome, you can play it with us".
Which is what an entire generation of geek dads are doing to their children, often at frighteningly young ages, when they're not really capable of defending themselves or even understanding how they're being USED by their dads as a substitute for a real, adult, gaming group.
In that case, they should use reverse psychology. ;)
They should be telling their kids that D&D sucks, and is only for uncool geeks.
Quote from: Benoist;382313I just imagine parents not playing games with their children because some anonymous guy with a made-up persona would object on the intarwebz.
:hmm: Tough choice.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I think its fine to play games with your kids. But RPGs are not games you are playing for them. Its not teaching them snakes & ladders, monopoly, chess, card games, uno, stratego, etc.
Its something everyone here is passionately obsessed with, and its very difficult to imagine that you're showing them RPGs for the "kids' sake". For starters, no one under the age of about 12 even needs RPGs. Kids play freeform.
So why aren't you just playing cops & robbers with them? Why are you trying to tell them about armor class and saving throws? Simple: because you want them to do a thing for YOU.
Its not the best thing for the kids (though I'm not saying it'll necessarily scar them for life, either), its not the best thing for the hobby (because I'm quite willing to bet that 90+% of those kids who were coerced into playing RPGs with daddy before they were 12 are not going to want to have ANYTHING to do with RPGs by the time they're teens), its just the best thing for the dads who are desperate to game and have a captive and probably relatively willing audience in the form of their young impressionable children.
RPGPundit
Quote from: ggroy;382551In that case, they should use reverse psychology. ;)
They should be telling their kids that D&D sucks, and is only for uncool geeks.
In the case of parents? Yeah, probably. I don't know. At the very least, they shouldn't be gaming with them, not until they're old enough that its clearly and unequivocably their choice.
You see, I had some experience with this in the form of my (much) younger brother. He's over a decade younger than me, and throughout his childhood watched me gaming, looked at my books with their awesome pictures, my dice, etc.
He asked me to play dozens and dozens of times, from the age of more or less 8 onwards.
Now, I did play lots of other kinds of board or card games with him, but I explained to him that RPGs are games that require certain maturity and that I'd gladly game with him from the moment he turned 16, but not a day earlier.
And of course, the little bastard, by the time he was 12, started buying his own RPG books, desperate to prove that he was mature enough to game with the big boys; he started his own gaming group, and true to my word when he turned 16, he joined my gaming group (and continued on his own).
In other words, I created a gamer.
Had my little brother been allowed to play at age 8, I can't say for certain what would have happened. Had I been one of those socially inept losers without a group of my own, and made him play for long hours on end, I can strongly imagine that by his teens my brother would likely have thought that RPGs were one of those lame things his brother did (he certainly thinks that plenty of things I do are lame).
So yes, I'm quite convinced that the way to get a kid to want to game is to tell him he can't. It worked for an entire generation.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382068Thought you guys might get a kick out of it, too.
I asked for some info about the character when the kids got home from school. Apparently it was a bit of a collaboration, with my older daughter coming up with the game and helping my younger daughter make the character. My youngest son apparently assisted with the coloring, too.
Anyway, the stats were reported to me as follows:
S = Strength
W = Wisdom
P = Power (asking for clarification, I was informed this was like "raging" power, so I figure it's aggression/rage, like the Hulk)
O = Optimism
H = Hope
So Sister Kate is a wise, hopeful, and optimistic character who apparently keeps a cool head and uses her big brain (and her doughty band of followers) to address the obstacles she runs into.
Sounds like a future Ars Magica player :D Great stuff, she rocks.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382552So why aren't you just playing cops & robbers with them? Why are you trying to tell them about armor class and saving throws? Simple: because you want them to do a thing for YOU.
How about, they want to play the game they see you playing? Kids have this thing where they like to be like mom and dad. It's how they learn shit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382553Now, I did play lots of other kinds of board or card games with him, but I explained to him that RPGs are games that require certain maturity and that I'd gladly game with him from the moment he turned 16, but not a day earlier.
Maturity? Do you read these boards?
Quote from: RPGPundit;382553Had my little brother been allowed to play at age 8, I can't say for certain that would have happened.
But you can say for certain that it would have been a bad idea?
Quote from: RPGPundit;382553So yes, I'm quite convinced that the way to get a kid to want to game is to tell him he can't. It worked for an entire generation.
Didn't work for me. When I showed interest in the game my parents were only too happy to buy me some books and dice. They didn't play with me but did nothing to discourage me from playing.
Great OP. Very cute.
Does Pundit have any clue how laughably ridiculous he's being?
Probably not. Great thread all around. Puts a smile on my face.
Pundit, I think your argument is based on the flawed premise that parents who game with their children are doing so to fill a gaming void in the parents' life. While there might be some cases like that, I have a hard time imagining that it's a widespread phenomenon. And even in such cases, I'm unconvinced that it would be a negative thing. (I certainly find the beauty pageant parallel to be over-the-top. I think that speaks more to your perception of RPGs as a purely adult activity than anything else.)
I lack a set of data on parents who play RPGs with their kids to go on; I only have my personal experience. My experience is that the children saw the adults playing RPGs and having fun. They "got it," and they wanted to play, too. It's really as simple as that. You're imagining the coercion from the wrong side.
I have wondered if my kids will come to see RPGs as something to reject when they're teens. The jury is still out on that one, but I will say that the oldest of the kids have become young teens and it hasn't happened, yet. (But I also haven't seen teen rebellion in full force, yet.) Actually, the two older kids have started playing RPGs with their friends, so even if they don't want to play with Dad, anymore, at some point, I'm not sure that would also mean a complete rejection of RPGs. But even if it did, so what? I rejected all sorts of stuff when I was a teen. But I survived and grew out of it. (Except for brussel sprouts. I still hate those fucking things.)
I was just thinking about teen rebellion. Pundit, if you had some rebellious teen kids, I bet they'd reject Amber and start playing My Life With Master. That would show you.
Quote from: two_fishes;382570Great OP. Very cute.
I agree.
I can hardly wait to see the full game!
Quote from: two_fishes;382570Does Pundit have any clue how laughably ridiculous he's being?
Probably not...
I certainly hope not. This place would become considerably more boring if he ever regained his sanity.
Quote from: Fifth Element;382563How about, they want to play the game they see you playing? Kids have this thing where they like to be like mom and dad. It's how they learn shit.
A kid might be really excited by my gun collection or my wife's piercings, but that doesnt' mean I should let my 6-year old play with a glock or a 5 year old get a tongue piercing.
QuoteBut you can say for certain that it would have been a bad idea?
Not for absolute certainty. I'm sure that some of the kids of gamer-parents who inflict D&D on their toddlers will grow up to be D&D geeks themselves, and will have warm memories of having been introduced to orcs and beholders on daddy's lap.
But I suspect that more will end up rejecting it in adolescence, the age when they SHOULD be playing RPGs, because they will now think of it as something that's "babyish" (because they were made to play it when they were still babies) and as something "lame" (because their parents do it).
And I think that in the case of any of those gamers who game with their children because they have no adult group, those kids are going to end up needing a fucking psychologist. Because they're essentially being used, in the same way that child-beauty-pageant kids are being used. They might like it, more or less, at the time they're kids, but when they're adults do you think they won't figure out that it was more about satisfying what daddy wanted than anything else?
QuoteDidn't work for me. When I showed interest in the game my parents were only too happy to buy me some books and dice. They didn't play with me but did nothing to discourage me from playing.
I'm not saying that's a bad idea either. All I'm saying is DON'T PLAY WITH THEM. Shit, of course, if your kid asks you to buy you D&D for him when he's 11, go for it. Let him run his game in your kitchen table with his friends. Just don't play with him, don't impose yourself into what should be about kids creating their own fun. Because its not the same if dad is there, no matter how much dad wants to imagine it'd be the same; its like the difference between kids kicking around the ball on the street (or these days, I guess in the park), and organized little-league soccer.
When he's about 16, and essentially not a child anymore, if he wants to join your gaming group (and yes, go get a motherfucking gaming group full of adults), then you can let him in gladly, and he'll get the feeling that its a rite of passage for him. You'll have made a gamer for life.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382581I was just thinking about teen rebellion. Pundit, if you had some rebellious teen kids, I bet they'd reject Amber and start playing My Life With Master. That would show you.
No I don't think they would, see, because I wouldn't have let them play Amber with me. They'd "rebel" by getting their own Amber group together and playing RPGs like god intended young gamers to do it: a bunch of kids with no fucking clue what they're doing making half their shit up and running godawful monty-haul adventures that make no fucking sense, without any parent around to ruin the fun.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;382795A kid might be really excited by my gun collection or my wife's piercings, but that doesnt' mean I should let my 6-year old play with a glock or a 5 year old get a tongue piercing.
WTF? Comparing gaming to guns and piercings?
Quote from: Benoist;382815WTF? Comparing gaming to guns and piercings?
And kiddie beauty pageants. Pundit clearly sees RPGs as an adults-only kind of activity, such that it's actually kind of perverse for adults to include children. (Or at least for adults and children to play in the same game.)
I find that bizarre, but don't have much else to say about it.
GUNS & Piercings! the next D20 Modern release coming soon this fall from Gonzo Games!!
You gotta admit that does sound like it could be the title of a game book or expansion.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382879And kiddie beauty pageants. Pundit clearly sees RPGs as an adults-only kind of activity, such that it's actually kind of perverse for adults to include children. (Or at least for adults and children to play in the same game.)
I find that bizarre, but don't have much else to say about it.
No, its more like I see RPGs as a kind of rite of passage of early adulthood; which can be absolutely spoiled by any of the following:
1. Having it introduced to you too soon.
2. Not being allowed to work it out on your own, having all the effort, and crazy-early-wrongness taken out of it.
3. Having it "structured" by older authority figures.
4. Having it ruined by it being associated with your lame older relatives (especially PARENTS), which sucks all the early-teenage "freedom" out of it.
5. Particularly if you come to realize that when said parent was gaming with you, you were basically being used by him as a substitute for a "real" group.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;382995No, its more like I see RPGs as a kind of rite of passage of early adulthood; which can be absolutely spoiled by any of the following:
1. Having it introduced to you too soon.
2. Not being allowed to work it out on your own, having all the effort, and crazy-early-wrongness taken out of it.
3. Having it "structured" by older authority figures.
4. Having it ruined by it being associated with your lame older relatives (especially PARENTS), which sucks all the early-teenage "freedom" out of it.
5. Particularly if you come to realize that when said parent was gaming with you, you were basically being used by him as a substitute for a "real" group.
RPGPundit
That's... a really weird way of looking at it.
None of these things "have to" or even are "likely" to unfold if a young child plays RPG with his parents. It seems you're thinking about parents who are gamers as inherently dysfunctional in regards to gaming and their children. That's WAY too close to the "brain-damage" argument for my taste, honestly.
Part of me wishes I had found RPGs before I became a teenager. I was big-time into pretend when I was really little, and really liked playing specific characters and developing elaborate situations. I also played quite a bit of video/PC games (Mechwarrior and Wolfenstein were among my favorites). In fact, I began playing Wolfenstein because I saw my father playing it one time and wanted to try (and thus began my quest to play more challenging and complex "adult" games in the form of PC games, which in turn led to me becoming a "gamer", which in turn led to Magic, which in turn led to D&D). I also remember watching quite a lot of sword & sorcery/scifi on TV with my dad, which I really enjoyed. My father wasn't really a gamer, but he did have a passing interest in some "geeky" things.
So, maybe I wasn't that rebellious as a teenager, or maybe that rebellion took other forms, but I think when you get down to it (and the science behind it), you see that the things kids want most, even in their teenage years, is to be accepted by and spend time with their parents. I personally wish my father and I had more in common, and that we had done more together, since now we have very little common ground on anything, and our relationship isn't as good as it could be. He had his own "rebellion" of sorts when he got remarried, completely flipping from an apathetic Lutheran to a fundamentalist born-again Christian who decided to reject all of the knowledge and wisdom he had gained as a father and a Mason and substitute in superstitions.
Maybe a parent's rejection of the hobby spurred others on, but when you're a relatively good kid who believes they have an ok relationship with God...I don't know. When my father told me the things I derived joy from were somehow evil, satanic, and that they were corrupting my soul, sure, I shook my head because I knew he was being silly, but it also hurt that I couldn't speak of the things I enjoyed with him, and that a lot of our other common ground had also been tossed aside to make way for his new religious life.
I think that having common interests with your family and loved ones is important, and trying to take a hobby like RPGs and squarely place them in the realm of "friends only" is being a bit unfair. By their nature, RPG groups form from social cliques often made up of peers, but that doesn't mean that they're limited solely to that sort of social situation. You could replace RPGs with any other sort of activity teenagers might get into, and it would work just as well, since it's not that certain activities only work for socialization or passing into adulthood, but just the act of sharing a common activity.
I don't view not playing RPGs or other sorts of games that teenagers get into with my parents as "how it is", I view it as a missed opportunity to spend time and share an interest with my father.
Fuck, that was long. Sorry.
Quote from: Peregrin;383051I don't view not playing RPGs or other sorts of games that teenagers get into with my parents as "how it is", I view it as a missed opportunity to spend time and share an interest with my father.
Fuck, that was long. Sorry.
That was one hell of a good post. Kudos.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382995No, its more like I see RPGs as a kind of rite of passage of early adulthood; which can be absolutely spoiled by any of the following:
1. Having it introduced to you too soon.
2. Not being allowed to work it out on your own, having all the effort, and crazy-early-wrongness taken out of it.
3. Having it "structured" by older authority figures.
4. Having it ruined by it being associated with your lame older relatives (especially PARENTS), which sucks all the early-teenage "freedom" out of it.
5. Particularly if you come to realize that when said parent was gaming with you, you were basically being used by him as a substitute for a "real" group.
I'm gonna go with Benoist on this one; this is mighty close to a Swiney argument. You're arguing that there's a "right way" to start playing RPGs, or at the very least, a wrong way. I know several people who were introduced to D&D by their parents, a couple of them are in my current group and have been playing for nearly 30 years.
Your assumptions here about how a game run by a kid's parent are just a bit batshit, too. Why wouldn't the game be run for the kids, rather than the adult? Unless the parent is a Viking Hat DM who can only run one type of game (regardless of what his players want), but those are pretty rare.
Quote from: Benoist;383026That's... a really weird way of looking at it.
None of these things "have to" or even are "likely" to unfold if a young child plays RPG with his parents. It seems you're thinking about parents who are gamers as inherently dysfunctional in regards to gaming and their children. That's WAY too close to the "brain-damage" argument for my taste, honestly.
I'm sure there are more than a few geek parents who are far from the "dysfunctional geek" model (I mean, at the very least they were sufficiently functional to be able to mate, which already puts them ahead of the typical dysfunctional gamer).
I'm sure there's lots of parents who are playing with their kids because the kids begged them to, and are not trying to coerce them into it, don't push the kids about it if the kids get bored with it, etc.
But even in those ideal situations, where the kid is totally not being taken advantage of in any way, I think it does deny those kids some special elements of discovering and exploring RPGs on their own that are very formative in the RPG experience.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar;382308Thats because she wants him to have elf-confidence.
- Ed C.
L'd OL at that.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382581I was just thinking about teen rebellion. Pundit, if you had some rebellious teen kids, I bet they'd reject Amber and start playing My Life With Master. That would show you.
"You don't understand me, or my dice pools!"
Then they try to slam the door, but their geeky arms are too weak.
Actually the tone of The Window (http://www.mimgames.com/window/welcome/stateofart.html) and some other games makes a lot more sense if you imagine the author as the child of a grognard.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383131But even in those ideal situations, where the kid is totally not being taken advantage of in any way, I think it does deny those kids some special elements of discovering and exploring RPGs on their own that are very formative in the RPG experience.
This also fails to make sense. Are you suggesting that all RPGers should learn the game with a group that has never played before? That is to say, how is this situation really different from a kid learning to play the game from other (non-related) experienced gamers, a situation which I daresay is quite common?
Pundit, what you are so inaptly missing is that most parents play games and make-believe with their children, and that a roleplaying game is nothing more than a natural extension of what they're already doing for years.
Quote from: RPGPundit;382547I probably shouldn't, but.. ok, I'll bite: Nineties political slogans?
This (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=337660&postcount=49).
Quote from: RPGPundit;382552I'm quite willing to bet that 90+% of those kids who were coerced into playing RPGs with daddy before they were 12 -
Coercion? Yes, because when dad says, "kids, I want to spend several hours playing games with you," the kids usually say, "noooooooo!" He has to COERCE them.
Seriously, Pundit, was the last time you met children when you were one yourself?
Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.
:teehee:
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.
HA! :D
Quote from: PundyI'm sure there are more than a few geek parents who are far from the "dysfunctional geek" model (I mean, at the very least they were sufficiently functional to be able to mate, which already puts them ahead of the typical dysfunctional gamer).
I'm sure there's lots of parents who are playing with their kids because the kids begged them to, and are not trying to coerce them into it, don't push the kids about it if the kids get bored with it, etc.
But even in those ideal situations, where the kid is totally not being taken advantage of in any way, I think it does deny those kids some special elements of discovering and exploring RPGs on their own that are very formative in the RPG experience.
But that's the thing though. I guess what's shocking me is that you seem to live in an alt-universe where geek parents are coercing their children to play games with them. I mean... really? WTF?
And the point that it would "rob them of some important part of their RPG development"... What?! You do know that the vast majority of gamers were introduced to the game by friends or parents and didn't come to it magically on their own, right?
I'm just not following you there.
Quote from: Fifth Element;383156This also fails to make sense. Are you suggesting that all RPGers should learn the game with a group that has never played before? That is to say, how is this situation really different from a kid learning to play the game from other (non-related) experienced gamers, a situation which I daresay is quite common?
"experienced gamers" should be your best friend's older sister's 19-year-old boyfriend; not your 42 year old mother GMing for you and making sure that you don't say any dirty words and put coasters under your glasses.
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Shaman;383167Pundit, what you are so inaptly missing is that most parents play games and make-believe with their children, and that a roleplaying game is nothing more than a natural extension of what they're already doing for years.This (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=337660&postcount=49).
Ah, I see. So it was just a cheap shot. And an inaccurate one at that. "political correctness" as a term was first used by Marxists, albeit not disparagingly, they were being perfectly serious.
Which of course, the PC-crowd still are, and they can't stand that to most other people the idea that people should be forced to be "politically correct" is actually a horrific dystopian concept.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Coercion? Yes, because when dad says, "kids, I want to spend several hours playing games with you," the kids usually say, "noooooooo!" He has to COERCE them.
Seriously, Pundit, was the last time you met children when you were one yourself?
Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.
Coercion not implying force in this case, but manipulation. I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;383274"experienced gamers" should be your best friend's older sister's 19-year-old boyfriend; not your 42 year old mother GMing for you and making sure that you don't say any dirty words and put coasters under your glasses.
RPGPundit
Come on. It doesn't *have* to be that way.
You can set up "play time" with a different set of expectations.
It's like... you have no idea of what it means to be a parent, or something.
Show us on the doll where your mom touched you.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383279Coercion not implying force in this case, but manipulation. I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.
Couldn't the same be said of "board game night" or even just tossin' the ole pigskin around the back yard? Aren't these all a kind of coercion by your definition? Wouldn't introducing any kind of recreational activity implicitly perform some kind of violence on the free will of the child?
Should parents resign themselves to being alien disciplinary figures who are careful only to concern themselves with the "boring" aspects of a child's emerging identity?
I think you're being a
tad cynical about the dynamics of the parent-child relationship and the purpose of gaming in general. Is gaming about fulfilling some deep personal need or is it a medium through which you can have fun with other people? You seem to be cutting awfully close to the first view which, as I understand it, is the perspective of what you call "the swine." But again, if RPGs are just a medium through which you have fun with other people, what's the difference between playing an RPG and any other game? How is playing Monopoly with a kid not "using him" to have fun?
Moreover, if you have some moral issue with the transactional nature of any human interaction, how can you justify gaming with anyone? Do you honestly view your fellow players as tools through which you experience the beauty of the game in-itself or do you just view the game itself as a means to have a good time with people whose company you enjoy? I would consider the latter to be a healthy mindset, and it's the mindset that most people have when they run a dungeon crawl with their kid. It's not about finding an excuse to play D&D. It's about sharing something fun with someone you like... like fishing or baseball or cooking.
To that end, the key is not to force your child to do something he doesn't enjoy, and unless you explicitly tell a child that their sense of self-worth should be tied to their performance in some recreational activity (as with overbearing sports parents), children are rather vocal about what they don't like.
Quote from: EmboldenedNavigator;383297I think you're being a tad cynical about the dynamics of the parent-child relationship and the purpose of gaming in general. Is gaming about fulfilling some deep personal need or is it a medium through which you can have fun with other people? You seem to be cutting awfully close to the first view which, as I understand it, is the perspective of what you call "the swine." But again, if RPGs are just a medium through which you have fun with other people, what's the difference between playing an RPG and any other game? How is playing Monopoly with a kid not "using him" to have fun?
This is very well-said. Pundit did say he considers RPGs to be a rite of passage, so it appears there is some swinery going on.
Quote from: Fifth Element;383521Pundit did say he considers RPGs to be a rite of passage, so it appears there is some swinery going on.
Well said.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383279I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.
So what? Some dads will always take their kids fishing, or always to a football game, or always do woodwork with them, or whatever. And the choice isn't entirely up to the kid. Mainly because kids don't care much. They enjoy doing lots of things and spending time with their parents.
Sometimes there'll be something they hate doing or are bored by, I assure you kids let their parents know about that. They don't hold back - that's pretty much one of the defining aspects of "being a kid," everything just comes gushing out. And most parents will find something else to do with their child instead, because they get tired of the screaming.
The child will not be scarred by this. "Oh my God, dad used to always take me fishing. We enjoyed it. It wasn't my idea, he MANIPULATED me into it." Come on.
RPGs are not a rite of passage.
"Timmy, I can't help you until you can talk about what your daddy did to you."
"...He...he played games with me. And spent time with me."
"...Dear god..."
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383606RPGs are not a rite of passage.
Agreed. It's not the fucking freemasonry.
Though there still is the secret Gagyx Handshake...
Quote from: Fifth Element;383627"Timmy, I can't help you until you can talk about what your daddy did to you."
"...He...he played games with me. And spent time with me."
"...Dear god..."
"And now I have brain damage!"
Good old Mirror Ron.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383629"And now I have brain damage!"
Good old Mirror Ron.
EXACTLY. Like I said a few pages earlier, it's awfully close to saying that kids playing games with their parents are brain-damaged. I never thought I would see Pundy go for such an argument.
Its not about brain damage (and very amusing watching people who have no real arguments against my points trying to use the old "we don't have to actually argue, we'll just twist reality around as much as possible to try to paint the pundit as holding positions he in no way does"), its about them not becoming gamers.
I don't give a fuck about parents having a good time with their kids or not, I give a fuck about this hobby being healthy, and I take issue with the idea that forcing your 5 year old to play 4e with you means that the hobby has a future.
That's not a future, because that kid will likely NOT become a gamer because of your actions.
And sorry, but while RPGs themselves aren't a rite of passage, there are certain rites of passage in the RPG hobby. Certain experiences that are part of the hobby, that not everyone experiences all of them, but where its very fucking clear that if your mom is the person GMing you, you will not experience any of them.
And yes, RPGs are meant to be a hobby that is a little bit "dangerous"; you're not meant to be a nice person and not swear and use coasters while you're playing the Barbarian Anti-paladin of the Dark Lord of Skulls who's just slaughtered an entire orc village. Having a parent in your group guarantees (unless that parent is fairly unusual) an overly-sanitized "PG-rated RPG" experience, if not a disneyfied one if the kid is especially young, which I find hard to believe will not be later viewed as "Lame".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;383630EXACTLY. Like I said a few pages earlier, it's awfully close to saying that kids playing games with their parents are brain-damaged. I never thought I would see Pundy go for such an argument.
And you still haven't, you cunt. The fact that Kyle can't argue his way out of a paper-bag, and has to create a fake line of argument to make up for his inherent inadequacy, doesn't mean you have to jump on that bandwagon. You could, I don't know, try to continue arguing for your side in the REAL debate.
RPGPundit
And pray tell, Pundit, what in your opinion constitutes a "healthy hobby"?
And how is it that a parent bringing (say) his 7-year-old to the gaming table threatens this "health"?
Because to me it is sounding a lot like Forge-cult argumentation. "The kid cannot possibly be having fun and he'll grow up to hate RPGs." (which admittedly is not what you've explicitly said, but it did feel like you were setting up for this or a similar conclusion).
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383629Good old Mirror Ron.
Which one has the goatee?
Quote from: RPGPundit;383707I don't give a fuck about parents having a good time with their kids or not, I give a fuck about this hobby being healthy, and I take issue with the idea that forcing your 5 year old to play 4e with you means that the hobby has a future.
Now
that's a fake line of argument.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383707That's not a future, because that kid will likely NOT become a gamer because of your actions.
Bullshit. Also, how likely is the kid to start playing RPGs if left alone to discover them by chance? At the absolute very least it creates exposure to RPGs, which is far from a sure thing otherwise.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383707And yes, RPGs are meant to be a hobby that is a little bit "dangerous"
So
that's what RPGs are meant to be. Thanks, Ron. Oops, I mean Pundy.
I think you're projecting how you see yourself on the hobby as a whole. You might consider yourself badass for playing RPGs, but in reality, gamers are not badass. In general, we're nerds.
Pundit, I'm not getting your argument. Its seems based on a presumption. Are you talking from personal experience or anecdote or do you have access to some definitive data? My experience (albeit annecdotal) and that of some of my fellow players, tells a different story.
I was introduced to D&D by my dad at the age of 11, my younger brother at 7, my youngest brother who was 4 years younger than him didn't start playing until he was about 7 so 4 years later. ALl of us were introduced to 'this great new game' he had discovered.
We had grown up on a steady diet of fantasy and Sci Fi, not because it was pushed on us, but because we demanded it. And like good parents they provided for and encouraged our development, believing (rightly in my opinion) that it (Edit for clarity: 'it' meaning D&D here) would help in our social development and imagination as well as all sorts of other areas (teamwork, leadership, having fun, take your pick, etc).
Soon we took control and started running our own sessions, inviting other friends to play. We still play and have an interest in RPGs now.
They aren't special, they are just a game, while the semantics might be a little different, they are still just a past time, a hobby. We enjoyed them just as much as Monopoly, Card games, Cricket in the Garden and didn't see any great difference. They weren't, for us, tainted by being introduced by my Dad, and I honestly can't see why we would do so. I can't imagine my father introduced us to it for purely altruistic reasons, (since he happened to be seated next to me today at my office today he can confirm that), he thought he'd enjoy it as well.
I now have two daughters, one is 6 the other 3. I don't anticipate introducing them to RPGs quite yet, although saying that my six year old is already looking at some of my books (she is an advanced reader) and has expressed an interest. When we walk to and from the swimming pool on Saturday mornings we, as she puts it, 'make up stories', however in reality its just a variation of role playing without any rules. She initiates it and always wants to follow on from the previous adventure. Why on earth would I want to deny her something she so clearly already enjoys, the fact I enjoy it as well is irrelevant.
Saying that I would not introduce her to my game table any time soon, she just wouldn't be able to deal with the games we are playing with other adults and neither would I expect her to. However thats not going to stop me from introducing her to a very simplified version of an RPG aimed at her age group if she wants to that she can introduce to her friends and her younger sister (when she's ready).
My experience is something very different to what you describe/fear, and there is no question of any coercing going on beyond enjoying a past time that your kids also might enjoy (and most times are already enjoying with their parents and peers anyway in one form or another). What could possibly be 'wrong' or 'damaging' with that? The fact is like most past times you introduce to your kids, they inevitably take control of it and start to share that past time with their friends and peers. Would that include me, I don't expect so. Does that mean she will never game with me again, I hope not but its her choice (see no coercion). I don't think I would let her game with me and my friends any time soon, and quite frankly she would probably find the experience boring. But to set up a game for her and her friends if she wanted, hell yeah. Within hours she would be creating her own material and DM'ing herself with her friends in the playground at home wherever. And that's got to be a good thing in my opinion. They may not do it according to the 'rules' they'll make up their own, they'll be horribly unbalanced, broken, they'll argue over it they'll have fun, they'll fall out etc, sound familier?
There is nothing in my experience and in the backgrounds of other players in my group (some of which had similar introductions to RPGs) that would indicate otherwise.
I'll readily admit all the above is anecdotal, it is my experience (or my players) and does not constitute a definitive survey of any kind, I'm sure there are plenty of other stories out there. However I can't believe that somehow my experience is so totally and utterly unique and that there aren't others who have had a similar experience.
What do you think?
My son, when he was little, begged and begged my wife and I to play an RPG with him, so when he was 8 or 9 we did so. He was Frodo Beggins (sic) and these were the further adventures of Frodo. He grew out of that after a bit, and began making other characters. After a couple of years he got a friend to play with him while I ran the games. Then after a few more years, he recruited a bunch of his friends, and we had a group, one that is still around today - and all of whom, with the exception of my wife, he recruited.
Man, he totally rejected gaming! Rejected it so much that by age 16, he was a contributor to my published games, designing magic systems, settings, and rule variants. He hated me so much for coercing him into it that now, at age 23, he's going for his Masters in Game Design and designing his own game - a supers RPG called "Look! Up In The Sky!"
Man, coercing him into gaming has just ruined it for him! I'm sure he will never forgive me for it!
-clash
Quote from: RPGPundit;383709And you still haven't, you cunt.
Yes I have, bitch. The fact that most of us, and most gamers in general, for that matter, have been introduced to the hobby by relatives and older friends, completely invalidates your argument that somehow parents playing an RPG will "spoil them" from some "rite of passage" that would make them better gamers for it.
This is pure bullshit, and you know it. Stop snorting from Ron's Coke stash!
Quote from: The Butcher;383712And pray tell, Pundit, what in your opinion constitutes a "healthy hobby"?
And how is it that a parent bringing (say) his 7-year-old to the gaming table threatens this "health"?
A healthy hobby is one that outlives this current generation of gamers.
And the threat is in that gamers' kids (or nephews/nieces, or little brothers/sisters) would be natural candidates to become gamers themselves, but not if its done wrong, and not if its done for the adult gamer's self interest rather than for the good of the kid and the hobby (which to me are one and the same here).
QuoteBecause to me it is sounding a lot like Forge-cult argumentation. "The kid cannot possibly be having fun and he'll grow up to hate RPGs." (which admittedly is not what you've explicitly said, but it did feel like you were setting up for this or a similar conclusion).
I'm talking about averages here; likelihoods. I know there's at least one or two adult gamers today that grew up playing RPGs with their parents from a young age, so its clear that this tactic at least to some degree works. However, I suspect that in most cases it won't; and yes, I'm highly suspicious of parents thrusting a hobby that's meant to be for ages 12+ onto preteens or toddlers, and doubt its something they're doing out of altruism.
There's nothing Swiney about acknowledging that some parents often try to get vicarious thrills out of their kids; and nothing Swiney about acknowledging that some parents often use kids as substitutes for other things in their lives (ie. a gaming group?), and its no great mystery that many of those kids as teens go on to reject what was thrust upon them.
Or is the other side so intent on trying to "take me down" here that they're now going to seriously start trying to pretend that there's no such thing as rebellious teenagers who think that everything their parents did with them is Lame?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fifth Element;383728Bullshit. Also, how likely is the kid to start playing RPGs if left alone to discover them by chance? At the absolute very least it creates exposure to RPGs, which is far from a sure thing otherwise.
If you'd actually read the thread, you'd have noticed that I never argue against "exposure": I'm not suggesting that parents roleplay in secret, or hide their books from their kids. I specifically advocated that when the kid is old enough (12+ or so, younger in the case of some "introductory" material in the style of Fighting Fantasy, etc.), the parents should get their kids their own gamebooks.
Don't conflate issues here. What I'm suggesting is that parents shouldn't take it upon themselves to be their kid's GM when the kid is barely out of diapers, ruining their potential to enjoy RPGs when they're older just to get some cheap mommy/daddy thrills or to make up for not having a group of ADULTS who want to game with them.
QuoteSo that's what RPGs are meant to be. Thanks, Ron. Oops, I mean Pundy.
Oh ho ho you're so very witty! What the fuck does that even mean, you fucking clod?! You want to throw around that nonsense argument about "Mirror ron" because I'm daring to talk about what RPGs should be like? YES, motherfucker, there is a way RPGs should be. That's the entire and sole foundation for arguing against the likes of Edwards and the Swine, because if there wasn't any way RPGs "should" be, then Edwards and co. would have the right to do whatever the fuck they wanted and call it RPGs.
It must be fucking hard for you, to be such a worthless waste of breath that all you can do is parrot someone else's incredibly lame insult-based argument, huh?
Have you ever considered trying to THINK? I know it must hurt, and might cause your nose to bleed, but you might even actually be able to come up with an argument of your own, maybe even one that's relevant to the point.
It might not be very good, but trust me, it can't look any more pathetic than "mirror ron"; that's the rhetorical equivalent of wetting yourself as a defense mechanism in the hopes the other guy will just go away.
RPGPundit
I'm curious: would you call Ernie or Luke Gygax, for instance, "maladjusted gamers"?
Because children playing with their DAD has been happening since... before OD&D was actually put to print, you know?
Quote from: It was all a mistake;383729Pundit, I'm not getting your argument. Its seems based on a presumption. Are you talking from personal experience or anecdote or do you have access to some definitive data? My experience (albeit annecdotal) and that of some of my fellow players, tells a different story.
I was introduced to D&D by my dad at the age of 11, my younger brother at 7, my youngest brother who was 4 years younger than him didn't start playing until he was about 7 so 4 years later. ALl of us were introduced to 'this great new game' he had discovered.
We had grown up on a steady diet of fantasy and Sci Fi, not because it was pushed on us, but because we demanded it. And like good parents they provided for and encouraged our development, believing (rightly in my opinion) that it (Edit for clarity: 'it' meaning D&D here) would help in our social development and imagination as well as all sorts of other areas (teamwork, leadership, having fun, take your pick, etc).
Soon we took control and started running our own sessions, inviting other friends to play. We still play and have an interest in RPGs now.
They aren't special, they are just a game, while the semantics might be a little different, they are still just a past time, a hobby. We enjoyed them just as much as Monopoly, Card games, Cricket in the Garden and didn't see any great difference. They weren't, for us, tainted by being introduced by my Dad, and I honestly can't see why we would do so. I can't imagine my father introduced us to it for purely altruistic reasons, (since he happened to be seated next to me today at my office today he can confirm that), he thought he'd enjoy it as well.
I now have two daughters, one is 6 the other 3. I don't anticipate introducing them to RPGs quite yet, although saying that my six year old is already looking at some of my books (she is an advanced reader) and has expressed an interest. When we walk to and from the swimming pool on Saturday mornings we, as she puts it, 'make up stories', however in reality its just a variation of role playing without any rules. She initiates it and always wants to follow on from the previous adventure. Why on earth would I want to deny her something she so clearly already enjoys, the fact I enjoy it as well is irrelevant.
Saying that I would not introduce her to my game table any time soon, she just wouldn't be able to deal with the games we are playing with other adults and neither would I expect her to. However thats not going to stop me from introducing her to a very simplified version of an RPG aimed at her age group if she wants to that she can introduce to her friends and her younger sister (when she's ready).
My experience is something very different to what you describe/fear, and there is no question of any coercing going on beyond enjoying a past time that your kids also might enjoy (and most times are already enjoying with their parents and peers anyway in one form or another). What could possibly be 'wrong' or 'damaging' with that? The fact is like most past times you introduce to your kids, they inevitably take control of it and start to share that past time with their friends and peers. Would that include me, I don't expect so. Does that mean she will never game with me again, I hope not but its her choice (see no coercion). I don't think I would let her game with me and my friends any time soon, and quite frankly she would probably find the experience boring. But to set up a game for her and her friends if she wanted, hell yeah. Within hours she would be creating her own material and DM'ing herself with her friends in the playground at home wherever. And that's got to be a good thing in my opinion. They may not do it according to the 'rules' they'll make up their own, they'll be horribly unbalanced, broken, they'll argue over it they'll have fun, they'll fall out etc, sound familier?
There is nothing in my experience and in the backgrounds of other players in my group (some of which had similar introductions to RPGs) that would indicate otherwise.
I'll readily admit all the above is anecdotal, it is my experience (or my players) and does not constitute a definitive survey of any kind, I'm sure there are plenty of other stories out there. However I can't believe that somehow my experience is so totally and utterly unique and that there aren't others who have had a similar experience.
What do you think?
I'm a little loathe to comment on the specifics of an anecdotal situation, because of course its your anecdote, and I can't know the facts about it.
However, if we take what you're saying here at face value, it SOUNDS like what your father did for you was to be shown the game, and then left to your own devices, to run YOUR games, with YOUR friends, without constant parental interference. And it was shown to you when you were 11, which I still think a bit young, but certainly a more reasonable age than many accounts I've heard.
This is very different than most of the "gamer parents" accounts, where parents take their 4 or 5 or 6 year old kid and basically run the game for them, and turn their family into their own little personal gaming group.
You aren't completely clear if by "introduced" you mean that your father actually ran the game with you and your brothers, though I'm going to assume that's the case. If so, the real question is whether if your dad had shown you the books, lent them to you and your friends, and you'd run a game session as kids together, without parental supervision, do you think things would have turned out any different?
I suspect not, in your case, I suspect you'd have turned out to be just as much of a gamer, if not moreso.
On the other hand, had your dad been a different person than he is, and a little less willing to leave you to your own devices, I could see how you could have come to see RPGs as a "kids'" game that your weird dad liked, that you would drop like a hot potato in adolescence.
Again, I'm not saying that every single kid introduced to gaming by their parents is not going to be a gamer as an adult. Shit, some people are just BOUND to be gamers, and they'd be playing it no matter what their circumstances or how they came about it. In other cases, though, the method of introduction is important and affects what will happen in the long term.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;383763Yes I have, bitch. The fact that most of us, and most gamers in general, for that matter, have been introduced to the hobby by relatives and older friends, completely invalidates your argument that somehow parents playing an RPG will "spoil them" from some "rite of passage" that would make them better gamers for it.
This is pure bullshit, and you know it. Stop snorting from Ron's Coke stash!
Again, "relatives" can mean a lot of things. It can mean your older sister's boyfriend, the cool uncle, etc.
Usually, it means someone who is a little outside of the safety zone of mommy and daddy.
That's part of the appeal of the game to a 12 or 13 year old boy, that its the opportunity to play out hero-fantasies, and sometimes revenge-fantasies, and its got books with kickass illustrations of guns and the chance to be ultraviolent, and pictures of women almost showing their boobies. None of those are things you can typically talk about with your Mom.
Again, seriously, is the majority of this fucking thread trying to HONEST TO GOD tell me to my fucking face that the hobby would be the fucking same to them, if their early RPG experience had consisted of structured play from 3-5 pm supervised by your Mom as the GM, with G-rated adventures and no swearing or big guns or even occasional boobies?
RPGpundit
Quote from: Benoist;383771I'm curious: would you call Ernie or Luke Gygax, for instance, "maladjusted gamers"?
Because children playing with their DAD has been happening since... before OD&D was actually put to print, you know?
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that they were older than FIVE when they started playing with Gary.
What's more, Gygax is something of a special case, wouldn't you say?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;383775Again, seriously, is the majority of this fucking thread trying to HONEST TO GOD tell me to my fucking face that the hobby would be the fucking same to them, if their early RPG experience had consisted of structured play from 3-5 pm supervised by your Mom as the GM, with G-rated adventures and no swearing or big guns or even occasional boobies?
RPGpundit
Fallacy of the excluded middle, Pundit. I can't say if my gaming would have beeen different, because roleplaying games didn't exist when I was that age, and I was 21 when I started in '77. What I can say is that our games with our son were never G rated. No sexy boobs - that would be lost on a kid that age - but plenty of violence and gore, big guns, and the occasional swear.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice;383781Fallacy of the excluded middle, Pundit. I can't say if my gaming would have beeen different, because roleplaying games didn't exist when I was that age, and I was 21 when I started in '77. What I can say is that our games with our son were never G rated. No sexy boobs - that would be lost on a kid that age - but plenty of violence and gore, big guns, and the occasional swear.
-clash
I was actually just about to ask you that very thing. I would suggest, though, that this would make you the probable outlier, Clash. I have trouble imagining that the typical parent would be comfortable running a game with their young child that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;383783.................... that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.
RPGPundit
The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is THEY DON'T.
If typical means average of all games across the states or North and South America - then the average game is probably mucvh m,ore G or PG-rated than what you are assuming.
Profanity, violence, and sexuality are never reuirements for a good RPG session. They might get mentioned or touched upon - but they're not required.
Hell, you can 'sexuality' or even romance that a younger kid is okay with. Rem,ember the movie
"The Princess Bride"? By the end of movie the little boy is okay with a little bit of kissing of the main characters.
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383773I'm a little loathe to comment on the specifics of an anecdotal situation, because of course its your anecdote, and I can't know the facts about it.
However, if we take what you're saying here at face value, it SOUNDS like what your father did for you was to be shown the game, and then left to your own devices, to run YOUR games, with YOUR friends, without constant parental interference. And it was shown to you when you were 11, which I still think a bit young, but certainly a more reasonable age than many accounts I've heard.
This is very different than most of the "gamer parents" accounts, where parents take their 4 or 5 or 6 year old kid and basically run the game for them, and turn their family into their own little personal gaming group.
You aren't completely clear if by "introduced" you mean that your father actually ran the game with you and your brothers, though I'm going to assume that's the case. If so, the real question is whether if your dad had shown you the books, lent them to you and your friends, and you'd run a game session as kids together, without parental supervision, do you think things would have turned out any different?
I suspect not, in your case, I suspect you'd have turned out to be just as much of a gamer, if not moreso.
On the other hand, had your dad been a different person than he is, and a little less willing to leave you to your own devices, I could see how you could have come to see RPGs as a "kids'" game that your weird dad liked, that you would drop like a hot potato in adolescence.
Again, I'm not saying that every single kid introduced to gaming by their parents is not going to be a gamer as an adult. Shit, some people are just BOUND to be gamers, and they'd be playing it no matter what their circumstances or how they came about it. In other cases, though, the method of introduction is important and affects what will happen in the long term.
RPGPundit
Fuck, just had another essay long response when I accidentally closed the browser window before posting!!
In response to your response. Yes I think your probably right at the very least partly. It was a bit of both, he ran a good few campaigns then we kind of took over. He always wanted to get back involved again but as he put it 'didn't want to cramp our style'. My brother started at age 7 as did my youngest brother when he hit 7.
I think him running the session made a difference. He had read through the books and understood them and showed us what we were meant to do. Quite frankly at that age I would probably have struggled on my own and been put off by the experience. My brother who was only 7 played because I was playing but got it immediately. I still remember that first session, The Keep on the Borderlands. Years later I came across the character sheets and marvelled at the pictures my brother and I had drawn on them of our characters. Later my brother and I played with a mixture of his and my friends. It was a bit weird at times because of the 4 year age difference between him and me and our friends but generally it worked. As we got older the age difference became more and more meaningless.
I think I am understanding what your getting at. Your essentially saying that anyone who uses the family (read kids, nephews etc.) as a proxy for a lack of playing group and puts or exerts influence on their children to play with them for thier own selfish reasons risks losing them as players and active members of the hobby at a later date. I'm thinking this is because either/or/and: 1. they are see roleplaying as something they don't enjoy because well they just don't, they probably wouldn't be gamers whatever the circumstance and this behaviour just reinforces it. 2. They see [insert RPG here] my lame Mum and Dad made me play as lame by association (or possibly childish etc) 3. They rebel against something they associate with parental authority. And for the most part I would agree with that.
However I don't see those parents as being the norm, the standard against which most are measured against. Again, its my experience, but most gamers I know are responsible parents and wouldn't force their kids to do something they didn't want to out of pure selfish entertainment any more than any other random group of parents would force their kids to play football or play chess or go to drama classes when they didn't want to. Most parents will respond to an interest that is already there and expressed by their children. Whether they enjoy it as well is irrelevant. At the most they might suggest something and if there is no interest fine. Why on earth would you force them when they don't want to do it?
There are always some that behave that way, there may even be socio-economic or socio-political groups in which that behaviour is more likely, I have no idea. But overall I find it difficult to believe that a large majority of parents behave that way about any past time any more or less that roleplaying.
My parents introduced us to Poker, Canasta, Climbing, Water Skiing, Sci Fi and Fantasy, a love of film, canoeing, sailing and cooking mean curries.
All activities they enjoyed too, that they thought we would like. And for the most part they were right. (OK I didn't like their choice in music which was totally lame!!)
When we rebelled as inevitably three boys did, it was for all sorts of reasons. None of which effected our past times or hobbies. We just stopped playing or doing them with our parents, at least while we were rebelling and sometimes not even then.
Why would we have given up any of our past times, any of the things we enjoyed? Poker, no way I was playing poker with the very friends my parents disapproved of. Canasta, nope, (my friends and I sadly thought it was some great new card game that was going to take the world by storm, sad but true), climbing, hell no, I was climbing dangerous tall buildings again with the very same bunch of friends. D&D, nope I was staying late at friends houses drinking and playing D&D, Top Secret and Traveller. OK the canoeing and sailing suffered because we didn't have the money to do it by ourselves. But you get the drift.
While I agree that the scenario you are pointing out has the potential to put kids off (and lets face it there are always going to be some shits who treat their kids like that whatever), I think in practice that's probably not the case in a majority of cases. Again the picture might be different geographically, the US may differ to the UK, being from the UK this scenario just seems fairly remote. It feels like your reaching from my point of view.
While I haven't come, directly anyway, across the phenomenon of gamer parents who get their whole family involved with their game, I suspect that: 1. They are a minority of gamer parents, 2. That a majority of those that do probably run a separate game for their kids rather than include them with their adult friends (that would be just weird especially for those who are 11/12 or under) and 3. Are responding to their kids interest.
I see nothing wrong in indulging in that, at their level. I wouldn't put them through a full on D&D (whatever edition) game I would do something simpler, probably with just two/three stats and a really simple method of resolving actions, almost fighting fantasy. In fact most of the time i wouldn't even use a mechanic. Something they would understand and that would be fun, for them.
I suspect, but off course I can't prove, that a majority of Gamer parents who introduce their kids probably do it in that way. And that a minority are using them as a surrogate for their lack of gaming group. Fuck, it would be tedious in the extreme trying to get my 6 year old to go through one of my intricate winding double crossing political and horribly violent fantasy campaigns that I prefer to GM, she just wouldn't get it and it would be an exercise in futility and frustration for everyone.
However indulging her desire to be the child that solves the 'Mystery of the Disappearing Cows' (don't ask it was her title) was fantastic for all concerned. (OK it wasn't my usual cup of tea, I don't like fairies it had no polotics, no horrific backstabbing NPCs you thought were you friend and no gore and violence or mind numbing horror, but on the other hand I enjoyed it because she did. Something that most parents will empathise with.) (For anyone that wonders it was the Mad Cow-napper and his clockwork tunnelling machine that nabbed them from below. Kids they're just full of surprises).
For the phenomenon you describe to threaten the hobby in any way would mean a majority of players that have children would have to behave in that way (you would also have to presume a majority of players are introduced by their parents to the hobby, which I suspect is just plain wrong, I have no proof but I suspect most are introduced by their peers.) I just don't see that amongst anyone I know who plays and can't see how RPG players would behave any differently to anyone else with children.
Mind you I don't go to conventions (there aren't that many in the UK) so most of the gaming parents I see are friends or acquaintances.
While I think the phenomenon you describe could and does happen, I just don't see it as widespread or as big a threat that you do.
Does this jibe with anyone else's experiences (anecdotally or not)?
Hey what do you know, I recreated my essay! Result!
Quote from: RPGPundit;383783I was actually just about to ask you that very thing. I would suggest, though, that this would make you the probable outlier, Clash. I have trouble imagining that the typical parent would be comfortable running a game with their young child that featured the same levels of profanity, violence, and sexuality that a typical RPG game would involve.
RPGPundit
Well, I don't believe in nerfing stuff for kids. Never did, never will. Simplifying to an extent, yes - in setting, goals, and relationships - but it's a difference in degree, not in kind.
-clash
Quote from: Koltar;383792The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is THEY DON'T.
If typical means average of all games across the states or North and South America - then the average game is probably mucvh m,ore G or PG-rated than what you are assuming.
Profanity, violence, and sexuality are never reuirements for a good RPG session. They might get mentioned or touched upon - but they're not required.
Hell, you can 'sexuality' or even romance that a younger kid is okay with. Rem,ember the movie "The Princess Bride"? By the end of movie the little boy is okay with a little bit of kissing of the main characters.
- Ed C.
Sexuality is something that can vary from group to group (and I find too much overt sex in an RPG kind of distateful myself); but its pretty hard to argue the same with violence. In 9-10ths of all RPGs, you're going around killing shitloads of living things.
Profanity is also a personal matter, but in most fantasy games characters are typically at least implied to be drinking and wenching on a regular basis, stealing, and engaging in all kinds of other activities that I know at least my own mother wouldn't really approve of.
Not to mention, in many RPGs you have drug use, the occult, and more than occasionally you have player characters who are villains or evil.
I suppose most geek parents MIGHT be more liberal than your typical soccer mom about these things; but I still can't help but think that even your average geek parent would be a bit conflicted in showing all of this kind of activity to their kids, particularly very young kids.
What that means is that if kids are introduced to RPGs at a very early age, they are likely to be introduced to a very santized kind of game, a "Disneyfied RPG", if you will.
RPGPundit
To post a total outsider's perspective (or rather, a non-gamer's perspective, since at this point she's not a "total" outsider per se, having even played a few game sessions) The Wench has commented on the subject of this thread saying she doesn't understand why if we had kids I wouldn't just force my (our) kids to play RPGs. She points out that lots of parents get their kids to take piano lessons, she herself went through several years of Ukranian Dancing, which at times she wanted to do and at other times didn't, but as an adult she's glad her mom made her keep going in it. She doesn't quite get why RPGs wouldn't be something similar.
I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.
RPGPundit
An argument in favor of the Wench's point of view:
I could see some parents thinking its better their kids play a game with 4 or 5 other people at a table rathen than play video games staring at a screen all day.
A minor argument can be made in favor of interaction with other people is better than solitary videogame play. (and there ARE starting to be way too many kinds of that have a remote game controller addiction in some form)
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383766And the threat is in that gamers' kids (or nephews/nieces, or little brothers/sisters) would be natural candidates to become gamers themselves, but not if its done wrong, and not if its done for the adult gamer's self interest rather than for the good of the kid and the hobby (which to me are one and the same here).
If it's done wrong? Sure, no one's going to argue with that. But you're saying it should not be done
at all, just in case it might be done wrong. Most everyone else seems to agree that the wrong ones are the exception, not the rule.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383770It might not be very good, but trust me, it can't look any more pathetic than "mirror ron"; that's the rhetorical equivalent of wetting yourself as a defense mechanism in the hopes the other guy will just go away.
Meh, you just ignore any argument you don't like anyway, so why not just ignore this rhetoric as well?
Quote from: Koltar;383792The problem with that statement is that you are assuming that all 'typical' RPG sessions involve those things - when the truth is THEY DON'T.
Here's the big fat truth right here. Pundit's assuming all games must be the same as his games. They're not.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383864I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.
I certainly don't agree with forcing activities like that on kids, but it's not because it spoils their rite-of-passageness or some other bullshit. It's because kids are people too, and in terms of passtimes and hobbies should be allowed to do what they want to do.
Just think of the converse; would you not allow your kid to start the piano at 5 years old? He's really interested and really wants to try it, but you say "No, son, learning to play the piano is a rite of passage and you're not old enough yet." You seem to think such a thing will build his interest in the subject so that when he's "old enough", he'll appreciate it that much more. I'd suggest it's more likely to kill his interest rather than increase it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383864To post a total outsider's perspective (or rather, a non-gamer's perspective, since at this point she's not a "total" outsider per se, having even played a few game sessions) The Wench has commented on the subject of this thread saying she doesn't understand why if we had kids I wouldn't just force my (our) kids to play RPGs. She points out that lots of parents get their kids to take piano lessons, she herself went through several years of Ukranian Dancing, which at times she wanted to do and at other times didn't, but as an adult she's glad her mom made her keep going in it. She doesn't quite get why RPGs wouldn't be something similar.
I don't agree with her on this, and I imagine most of you won't either, but I think that it is something interesting to comment here.
RPGPundit
Well, I wouldn't agree with her either, because I'm not seeing RPGs as comparable to piano lessons or classic dancing or karate. Besides, I know enough bad stories of kids who were forced to do these things and lived to tell the tale of how wonderful it was to work on stuff outside of school you didn't want to do in the first place.
No. RPGs are a hobby. A pure entertainment. If my kids don't want to play, that'll be fine with me. If they do want to play, however, I don't see any particular issue in playing games with them.
So, if I got your viewpoint right, your concern is that being dragged to the RPG table by a parent might have a deleterious effect on the hobby's numbers, in the long term, because kids might dislike being "forced" to play by said parent. Is that correct?
If this is it, I'm not quite convinced.
A minority of people will be exposed to RPGs in childhood.
Of these, a minority will be exposed to RPGs by their parents.
Of these, a minority will be soured by the experience.
Of the minority soured by the experience, an unknown number may eventually revisit RPGs and decide their parents were just crappy GMs/players, but rehabilitate the concept, and go on to a gamer's life.
What I mean to say is, the scenario you describe, while plausible is probably in the minority of a minority of a very small minority.
But of course, none of us have any hard data on that, so it's all rampant speculation and bullshit.
Though I confess I derive a certain perverse amusement from your angry reaction to being called "mirror Ron". Dissected any good bat penises lately? Or is it bat vaginas, since you're mirror Ron? :D
Quote from: The Butcher;383887But of course, none of us have any hard data on that, so it's all rampant speculation and bullshit.
Yeah, exactly. I see a few things going on.
1) Pundit takes a fringe extreme--parents who coerce their children into playing RPGs as a substitute for an adult group to game with--and magnifies it into some large threat to gaming in general. Who knows how often this happens? My suspicion is that it is very rare. It requires that adults be unable to develop a social network large enough to find other like-minded adults and that they consider gaming with their pre-adolescent children an equitable substitute. Sure, I suppose this may happen, but I'm betting it's like you say, a minority of a minority of a minority. Getting all frothy at the mouth about it just makes Pundit look ridiculous, which seems to be apparent to everyone on the thread except Pundit. The idea that parents may play RPGs with their children because their children enjoy and parents enjoy doing things with their children for its own sake doesn't seem to occur to him as the more likely scenario.
2) Pundit sees RPGs as an activity as inseperable from its content. All "proper" RPGs must contain guns, gory violence, profanity, and big-titted babes. This is manifestly false, and I think this stereotype does far more harm to RPGs as a healthy hobby than parents playing games with their kids. This idea that parents who play Toon, or Marvel Superheros, or Prime Time Adventures (oops sorry that's not a "real" RPG), or Pokemon the RPG, or whatever the kid likes to play, are somehow sullying the "purity" of RPGs is a crock of shit. It's an entertainment medium, plain and simple, capable of conveying a great diversity of content.
3) There is some sort of "correct" way to be introduced to RPGs. This correct way seems to require that the new player is an adolescent boy, and RPGs should cater to adolescent male wish-fulfillment fantasies. Adolescent girls and pre- or post- adolescents of both genders are implicitly doing it wrong. I think this ties in with point #2 above. Not only do I disagree that there is any sort of "correct" way to be introduced to RPGs, but I sincerely doubt that playing Toon with your parents as a child is going to damage your ability or desire to play Heavy Metal D&D with your buddies as a teenager.
I wonder, Pundit, when you post something retarded on a thread, and everyone unanimously lines up to point out that you're being ridiculous, does it cross your mind at all that you might be wrong? Or does it simply reinforce some internal self-image of being a lone voice crying out in the wilderness?
Quote from: Fifth Element;383871Just think of the converse; would you not allow your kid to start the piano at 5 years old? He's really interested and really wants to try it, but you say "No, son, learning to play the piano is a rite of passage and you're not old enough yet." You seem to think such a thing will build his interest in the subject so that when he's "old enough", he'll appreciate it that much more. I'd suggest it's more likely to kill his interest rather than increase it.
Its the opposite situation; there are certain skills which, if not learned early, can never be fully developed. Piano, ballet, etc., these are things that parents HAVE to force on their kids to a certain extent if the kids show some interest, because if the kid doesn't learn the fundamentals as a kid, otherwise it'll be too late.
But RPGs aren't like that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Butcher;383887Though I confess I derive a certain perverse amusement from your angry reaction to being called "mirror Ron". Dissected any good bat penises lately? Or is it bat vaginas, since you're mirror Ron? :D
Its not the insult that angers me, its the poverty of the quality of my opposition. It frustrates me that this is what they consider their "best shot".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar;383868An argument in favor of the Wench's point of view:
I could see some parents thinking its better their kids play a game with 4 or 5 other people at a table rathen than play video games staring at a screen all day.
A minor argument can be made in favor of interaction with other people is better than solitary videogame play. (and there ARE starting to be way too many kinds of that have a remote game controller addiction in some form)
- Ed C.
I guess, but video-games are fairly social activities among normal kids (mostly males), and not playing any at all sometimes indicates that a child isn't developing normally in terms of their social skills.
By video-games, though, I mean specifically console games that can be played from a common/living-room and supports multiple players on one screen. Though spent some evenings playing single-player games and switching off with friends every once in a while, having a few drinks and talking about the week. PC games/MMOs are more solitary in nature (or filter out the face-to-face interaction), though, so I wouldn't really count those.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383915Its not the insult that angers me, its the poverty of the quality of my opposition. It frustrates me that this is what they consider their "best shot".
RPGPundit
Come on, dude. Not even fucking close.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383775That's part of the appeal of the game to a 12 or 13 year old boy, that its the opportunity to play out hero-fantasies, and sometimes revenge-fantasies, and its got books with kickass illustrations of guns and the chance to be ultraviolent, and pictures of women almost showing their boobies. None of those are things you can typically talk about with your Mom.
Again, seriously, is the majority of this fucking thread trying to HONEST TO GOD tell me to my fucking face that the hobby would be the fucking same to them, if their early RPG experience had consisted of structured play from 3-5 pm supervised by your Mom as the GM, with G-rated adventures and no swearing or big guns or even occasional boobies?
Hold on - there's a huge difference between the hobby being
different and the hobby being
unhealthy.
Personally, when I started in RPGs, I fell into the stereotype of being a nerdy pre-teen who was a social misfit and played D&D (and some Traveller & Champions) with other outcast boys including lots of violence and occasional perverse acts with big-breasted women. I certainly never played with my mother or father, and if I had they'd be very different from what I did.
I don't feel that this should be a necessary core of RPGs, though. I don't want my son to replicate all my childhood experiences. While there's nothing wrong with nerdy pre-teen or teenage boys slavering over women's breasts, I don't think that its a side of the hobby we have to encourage. It's fine if it happens, but it is also fine if kids' early RPGs include girls, say. Further, my playing occasional RPGs with my 10-year-old boy in no way prevents him from running his own games with his friends - either now or some years down the road.
Quote from: two_fishes;383906I wonder, Pundit, when you post something retarded on a thread, and everyone unanimously lines up to point out that you're being ridiculous, does it cross your mind at all that you might be wrong? Or does it simply reinforce some internal self-image of being a lone voice crying out in the wilderness?
I think that there's a mix of people posting on this thread: some of them are parents who have gamed with their kids, and thus have a vested interest in not feeling that anything I've said is true. Others are pundit-haters, who are jumping onto the bandwagon of arguing against me like they always do. Then there are a few people who sincerely disagree with me (including some of the parents) and are trying to reasonably argue.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;383919Hold on - there's a huge difference between the hobby being different and the hobby being unhealthy.
Indeed, and this is why Pundit's being compared to the swine, though he doesn't like to see the connection.
A swine tells you if you do it a certain way, you get brain damage; ie, it's an unhealthy thing to do. That's what Pundit is saying in this thread. If there's no sex and swearing in your RPG, not only is it wrong, but it's unhealthy.
If that's not what he's saying, he should clarify. Because that's what I'm getting from it.
Quote from: jhkim;383919I don't feel that this should be a necessary core of RPGs, though. I don't want my son to replicate all my childhood experiences. While there's nothing wrong with nerdy pre-teen or teenage boys slavering over women's breasts, I don't think that its a side of the hobby we have to encourage. It's fine if it happens, but it is also fine if kids' early RPGs include girls, say. Further, my playing occasional RPGs with my 10-year-old boy in no way prevents him from running his own games with his friends - either now or some years down the road.
There were girls in my gaming groups from when I was 15 onward; I think most of what I'm arguing here can just as easily be translated to apply similarly to girls, or to people who start gaming at an older age, etc.
Yes, I wrote the description from the perspective of a young teenage boy because the REALITY is that most gamers started as young teenage boys.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Fifth Element;383923Indeed, and this is why Pundit's being compared to the swine, though he doesn't like to see the connection.
A swine tells you if you do it a certain way, you get brain damage; ie, it's an unhealthy thing to do. That's what Pundit is saying in this thread. If there's no sex and swearing in your RPG, not only is it wrong, but it's unhealthy.
A Swine will say that the way you roleplay makes you unhealthy (ie. brain damage).
This view is wrong, but this view also in no way invalidates the perfectly sensible statement that unhealthy people will roleplay wrongly; that if you are fucked up, your roleplaying will be too. That's a crucial difference.
A game without swearing or boobs will not necessarily be bad gaming; but that in no way invalidates my assertion that a kid who is forced to roleplay Disneyfied games with his mom as his formative RPG experiences will end up missing out on things.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;383915Its not the insult that angers me, its the poverty of the quality of my opposition. It frustrates me that this is what they consider their "best shot".
That's because some people are identifying your statements about "the way it should be" as the same sort of one-true-wayism adopted by Ron Edwards et alii; radically different content, but same hard-headed Manichean delivery.
I understand what you're talking about. Male adolescent wish fulfillment was a significant part of our early gaming, and I too would have been embarassed to have my mom at the gaming table (not my dad, though; the old man was
awesome). It's never been the sole focus of our gaming, though, and certainly not an obligatory and indissociable part.
I think it's entirely feasible to tone down the so-called "adult" content, e.g. skipping the wenching and the Stygian black lotus, so you can have your old gaming buddy's 8-year-old join us for an afternoon of subterranean treasure-hunting. The kidgets a kick out of hanging out with the grown-ups for a day, while we get a kick out of grooming a potential future gamer.
In the past I've railed against the bowdlerisation of D&D, molst evident in AD&D 2e, but I can get behind the idea of making special allowances for special occasions (like having one of the kids join us). Hell, The Hobbit was written and marketed as a childrens' book, and I consider it one of the archetypal "dungeon crawls" in fantasy literature.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383924There were girls in my gaming groups from when I was 15 onward; I think most of what I'm arguing here can just as easily be translated to apply similarly to girls, or to people who start gaming at an older age, etc.
Yes, I wrote the description from the perspective of a young teenage boy because the REALITY is that most gamers started as young teenage boys.
But you're not just arguing about what the reality happens to have been. You're arguing that is the way that RPGs are
supposed to be. Yes, my son is being introduced to RPGs in a way very different from how I got into RPGs. I don't see a problem with that.
I also find it rather screwy how you're trying to make parents playing fun games with their young children as an inherently suspect activity. i.e. If parents are spending time with their children, it probably means that their own lives are empty and are selfishly using their children as a substitute.
In modern times, people are having fewer children later in life than a few decades ago, and they're more involved with their kids lives - sometimes unhealthily so. I don't think that justifies calling out any activity with kids as being suspect, though.
Quote from: Fifth Element;383725Which one has the goatee?
Uncle Ronny's got a goatee, Pundit's got a full beard, it goes with his "alpha male bump."
Good to hear from the oddly-named It Was All A Mistake, and of course Clash. Actual experiences trump theory every time.
Quote from: two_fishesI wonder, Pundit, when you post something retarded on a thread, and everyone unanimously lines up to point out that you're being ridiculous, does it cross your mind at all that you might be wrong? Or does it simply reinforce some internal self-image of being a lone voice crying out in the wilderness?
Do you even have to ask that question?
Interesting to hear Pundit's thoughts that most rpg sessions are basically Quentin Tarantino movies with more tits. It explains a lot.
Quote from: RPGPundit;383928This view is wrong, but this view also in no way invalidates the perfectly sensible statement that unhealthy people will roleplay wrongly; that if you are fucked up, your roleplaying will be too. That's a crucial difference.
But you're not restricting it to that. You've argued that parents should not game with their kids. Not that unhealthy parents shouldn't do it; but that no one should do it.
Quote from: jhkim;383938I also find it rather screwy how you're trying to make parents playing fun games with their young children as an inherently suspect activity. i.e. If parents are spending time with their children, it probably means that their own lives are empty and are selfishly using their children as a substitute.
Precisely. This is why the parents in this thread are calling Pundit's arguments out as being ridiculous. He seems to think that someone gaming with their kids is probably fucked in the head. It does rather betray his lack of experience as a parent, I think.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383960Interesting to hear Pundit's thoughts that most rpg sessions are basically Quentin Tarantino movies with more tits. It explains a lot.
Hmm.. disparaging remarks about the anti-intellectualness of violence and licentiousness in RPGs.. now who was it who sounds like Ron Edwards again?
RPGPundit
Who said violence and licentiousness were anti-intellectual? Or that these things were bad to have in an rpg session?
I just don't think they're necessary in a game session, still less are they are defining element of or inherent to rpgs. If you want to have a game session with them, you can; if you want one without, you can.
Between the mindlessness of the Disney happy world and a Quentin Tarantino movie there's a middle ground - a middle ground in which children can participate without harm. Read some kids' books sometime, you might be surprised just how dark they are.
You're really speaking outside your experience here, Pundit. And it's showing big-time. You don't want to game with kids. That's okay, I don't, either. Doesn't mean it's morally wrong to do so, that it'll harm the child or put them off rpgs.
Well, there's no doubt that the phenomenon Pundit is talking about exists, I've seen it. Parents turning their social lives inward and forming creepy social circles with their children is nothing new. Participating in RPGs can be one of the activities that social circle is created around.
Is it common among gamers? That I kind of doubt. I think if the meme of "introducing kids to RPGs at 4 is cool" spreads to most gamers, the chance of something Pundit is talking about increases. Maybe that's what he's on about. Not sure I disagree.
Some hobbies or activities kids are introduced to by their parents, some the kids find for themselves. My parents didn't RP, so for me it was self-discovery. I don't think it HAS to be self-discovery necessarily.
If RPGs are a normal part of household life and the kids want to be included, I think that will have a pretty good chance of turning out well. If the parents go out of their way to bring the kids into gaming, I think that chance goes down.
@Benoist - You must bring back paper-mache Yoda. :D
Cute start to the thread. That was a lot of fun, PJ.
Pity Pundy had to threadcrap it, but this is all supposed to be about him you know. Realise that this is simply a position that he's adopted to incite controversy, that he may not really believe it and that it means nothing to him aside from bolstering post-count, and it all goes away.
!i!
I don't doubt for a minute that what Pundit describes does probably actually happen somewhere. However I think its a vanishingly small number of cases. To restate my position, its my experience that most Parents probably expose their kids to RPGs in much the same way as I was/did and as Clash did, in a way that suited the kids involved.
I think its probably a small percentage of RPG gamers are introduced by their parents, of that a majority are in games (at least at first) that are toned down or aimed directly at their age group. A vanishingly small minority are coerced or forced to play in their parents games.
I don't see a particular issue. Those edge cases that force or coerce their children to play their game are exhibiting behaviour that smacks of a far deeper issue in their parent/child relationship and their own social development, so if it wasn't RPGs it'd be something else.
In terms of the 'disneyfication' of a game to incorporate a younger child. Why not? Kids watch disney movies when they are young and then 'graduate' onto more grown up themes as they grow older. In that sense why should RPGs be any different. Because its 'cleaned up' or 'toned down' doesn't make it any less fun for the kid at that young age. And there is nothing to stop them introducing more mature elements as they take control as they grow older and play with their peers. Thats what happened with me.
If anything the comparison supports my view that in general the introduction of RPGs is a overall a good thing and is actually more likely to end up with a child who becomes an enthusiastic adult gamer later in life than not.
That's my view, as a parent, as a child who was introduced to RPGs by my Father and as a gamer today.
Quote from: CRKrueger;384009Well, there's no doubt that the phenomenon Pundit is talking about exists, I've seen it. Parents turning their social lives inward and forming creepy social circles with their children is nothing new. Participating in RPGs can be one of the activities that social circle is created around.
Is it common among gamers? That I kind of doubt. I think if the meme of "introducing kids to RPGs at 4 is cool" spreads to most gamers, the chance of something Pundit is talking about increases. Maybe that's what he's on about. Not sure I disagree.
You guys talk about it like its still a theoretical. Some of the things I saw on RPG.net would indicate that this is already the case.
And yes, I see it for many geeks who happen to have kids (or nephews/nieces, etc) as something that creates an excuse NOT to go out and find a gaming group, or recruit other appropriately aged gamers, and the justification is that recruiting their kids is "good for" the hobby.
I do not think it is. I do not think that a majority of kids forced to game by their parents will end up being gamers, and I do not think that this is an adequate substitute to someone going out and starting their own gaming group,in terms of what is healthy for the hobby. It makes things worse, not better, for the hobby; or at least "I made my 4 year old play 4e!" is not the sign of hobby-growth some people are trying to justify themselves by claiming it is.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;384058"I made my 4 year old play 4e!" is not the sign of hobby-growth some people are trying to justify themselves by claiming it is.
RPGPundit
It's a good job that the people on this site aren't actually suggesting that then, isn't it? I know you've been quiet recently but do you have to troll so obviously?
Quote from: CRKrueger;384009@Benoist - You must bring back paper-mache Yoda. :D
I kinda like my pipe-smoking Aragorn. :)
Quote from: Benoist;384108I kinda like my pipe-smoking Aragorn. :)
I thought it was a hobbit...
Quote from: Joshua Ford;384110I thought it was a hobbit...
Hehe. Nope. Aragorn. From the first LOTR books I read in my life. :)