Quote from: John MorrowIs the goal of the supplement to tell players who are black, female, gay, Chinese, or Communist how to play characters they can identify with or is the purpose to tell white males how to play black, female, gay, Chinese, or Communist characters?

To me, this is the heart of the matter.

Who is the audience for the book?  How is the book supposed to help them?

Because as it stands, the book sounds like most people would consider it pointless and uninteresting.

Quote from: jgantsTo me, this is the heart of the matter.

Who is the audience for the book?  How is the book supposed to help them?

Because as it stands, the book sounds like most people would consider it pointless and uninteresting.

Then it won't sell.  It will only sell if it adds some value to people's play.

Huh, who am I kidding, if that were true half the game books out there wouldn't be.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Interestingly, I don't think I need a game supplement to teach me about racism, as I already understand and dislike it.

Agreed.  Moreover, if I felt the need to educate myself about racism, a roleplaying game supplement would be the last place I'd reference.

Quote from: RedFoxAgreed.  Moreover, if I felt the need to educate myself about racism, a roleplaying game supplement would be the last place I'd reference.

OK.  So do you have in interest in the New Horizons supplement for SotC and, if so, what do you expect it to do for you?  What do you expect others to get out of it?

Quote from: jgantsTo me, this is the heart of the matter.

Who is the audience for the book?  How is the book supposed to help them?

Because as it stands, the book sounds like most people would consider it pointless and uninteresting.

Well, I agree in some sense.  The vast majority of people would consider it pointless and uninteresting because it is a role-playing game supplement -- and they have no interest in RPG supplements.  The majority of role-players wouldn't be interested in it because it's for Spirit of the Century, not for D&D or Vampire.  Of SotC players, some fraction probably won't be interested about it because it will be focused on women, blacks, homosexuals, and Asians rather than traditional American pulp heroes.  

However, what John Morrow is pushing for is that it should be focused on an educational content about historical discrimination rather than on butt-kicking pulp action.  

And I may be channeling Pundit here a bit, but I think that more people would be interested in butt-kicking pulp action than in an extended tract on how to educate your players about being discriminated against in the historical twenties -- which sounds rather dreary to me.  

Quote from: John MorrowI assume there is already a lot of information on how to run a butt-kicking adventure in the core book.  Making the bad guys Klansmen for butt-kicking fun is not much more than a matter of putting hoods and robes on them and lighting a cross on fire.
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I'm not claiming that there shouldn't be information on playing non-traditional characters.  I'm claiming that making it primarily about butt-kicking against stereotypical bigots, which possibly quite cathartic, isn't very imaginative nor informative.  I'd rather see a more down-to-Earth focus.

Well, you have stated your preference, and obviously you're entitled to it.  I disagree with your implication that a down-to-Earth focus is inherently more imaginative and informative.  I think that there can be just as much imagination and information in over-the-top heroic action.  A down-to-Earth focus could be more educational about everyday life of the historical twenties, but there are other sorts of information.  

Personally, I could do either -- but given what SotC is like (gorillas flying biplanes!), over-the-top action would fit better for me.  This fits with a lot of games which I've run over the past year, like my Conan RPG event Brawny Thews, my Truth & Justice game Bonds of Steel, Macho Women With Guns, my most recent "Spirit of Serenity" game, and others.  

Now, that said, maybe I'm not picturing what you really mean.  What are your more down-to-Earth, discrimination-focused games like?  What makes them fun?

Quote from: jhkimAnd I may be channeling Pundit here a bit, but I think that more people would be interested in butt-kicking pulp action than in an extended tract on how to educate your players about being discriminated against in the historical twenties -- which sounds rather dreary to me.

SotC is already about butt-kicking pulp action.  This particular supplement is seems intended as a "corrective" for SotC punting on the issue of racism, sexism, homophobia, and so forth in the pulps and during the period and it grew out of a discussion that SotC, with it's pure focus on butt-kicking pulp action, was not inclusive enough.  Or am I missing something here?

So if New Horizons isn't designed to deal with the mundane everyday indignations of the period, why do Bruce's examples include a woman who can't get patents, a black man who has to enter restaurants through the servants' entrance, gay men who would be disbarred and shunned, a group of communists who can't get visas, and Asian siblings who would only be tolerated as a ditch digger or deported for teaching English to other immigrants?  Those are the examples Bruce chose to illustrate what he wanted to do in the supplement rather than kicking Klansman butt.

Quote from: jhkimWell, you have stated your preference, and obviously you're entitled to it.  I disagree with your implication that a down-to-Earth focus is inherently more imaginative and informative.  I think that there can be just as much imagination and information in over-the-top heroic action.  A down-to-Earth focus could be more educational about everyday life of the historical twenties, but there are other sorts of information.

Can you provide an example of what you have in mind?

Quote from: jhkimPersonally, I could do either -- but given what SotC is like (gorillas flying biplanes!), over-the-top action would fit better for me.

You already have SotC, so what do you expect to get out of New Horizons?  Can you give a specific example of what you'd like to see in the book?

Quote from: jhkimNow, that said, maybe I'm not picturing what you really mean.  What are your more down-to-Earth, discrimination-focused games like?  What makes them fun?

See Bruce's examples.  Pulp heroes from oppressed groups that remain heroes despite the day-to-day indignities that they have to suffer.  I'm not opposed to the book containing some over-the-top butt-kicking action but I'm not sure how necessary it is if that's all it offers.  And if it's about kicking the butt of racists, sexists, homophobes, and so on, it runs the risk of begin a book about racists, sexists, and homophobes rather than a book about the oppressed people of the period and that just sounds like the wrong focus to me for this particular book, though it might be a good focus for a different book designed to highlight the human monsters of the 1920s as an enemies book for pulp heroes, either for standard SotC or New Horizons.  In fact, "Human Monsters" would probably be a pretty good title for such a book including the Klan, Hitler and Stalin in the 1920s, eugenicists, and so on as enemies in need of a good butt-kicking.

Quote from: John MorrowOK.  So do you have in interest in the New Horizons supplement for SotC and, if so, what do you expect it to do for you?

No.  I don't even own Spirit of the Century.  I have Adventure! and Savage Worlds for my pulp goodness already.

Quote from: John MorrowWhat do you expect others to get out of it?

Expect?  I have no clue.  I can only speculate as to what they'd get out of such a book.

Were I in the market for such a supplement myself, I'd want what I posted about up-thread:  A geographical worldbook with pulp gaming ideas based on different cultural histories.  Talk to me about the political landscape in India circa 1930's and what would make good pulp fodder.  That sorta thing.

In other words, not at all what's being sold but some other book entirely.

Quote from: John MorrowYou already have SotC, so what do you expect to get out of New Horizons?  Can you give a specific example of what you'd like to see in the book?

Quote from: John MorrowI'm not opposed to the book containing some over-the-top butt-kicking action but I'm not sure how necessary it is if that's all it offers.  And if it's about kicking the butt of racists, sexists, homophobes, and so on, it runs the risk of begin a book about racists, sexists, and homophobes rather than a book about the oppressed people of the period and that just sounds like the wrong focus to me for this particular book, though it might be a good focus for a different book designed to highlight the human monsters of the 1920s as an enemies book for pulp heroes, either for standard SotC or New Horizons.  In fact, "Human Monsters" would probably be a pretty good title for such a book including the Klan, Hitler and Stalin in the 1920s, eugenicists, and so on as enemies in need of a good butt-kicking.

OK, so as far as I can tell, your complaint is that if it includes X type of villains, then it "runs the risk" of being entirely about those villains.  I consider this a nonsensical complaint.  By this logic, including anything in the book "runs the risk" of the book somehow turning into nothing but that one thing.  

So, as far as what I would look for...

I'd like stuff which I can directly use for adventures in a pulp campaign.  My favorite pulp supplements are Aaron Allston's Lands of Mystery and the Daredevil Adventures series for Daredevils.  So those form a good basis.  I'd want a few sample heroes -- but more of supporting characters, villains, and locations.  To my mind, the difficulty of bringing diverse characters into pulp is that characters don't spring to mind as easily as the archetypes of the original pulps.  So having a bunch of related NPCs, organizations, and locations is good.  I think Brannon Boren and Patrick E. Bradley's Normals Unbound for Champions was a great example of developing a very usable set of interlinked supporting cast.  

I could see a few pages discussing the basics of discrimination and civil rights at the time.  However, I wouldn't be looking for anything more than that.  If I want to learn real-world history, I generally turn to non-RPG sources.  Having pulp characters inspired by history is fine, as long as they are suited for actual use in adventures.  

And I do think that the nature of adventures changes.  Good pulp adventures are not simply brainless violence with any old villain shoved in.  For example, an adventure fighting a Stalinist villain (or Stalin himself) can be very different if done by a bunch of communists as compared to by a bunch of American nationalists.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd if it's about kicking the butt of racists, sexists, homophobes, and so on, it runs the risk of begin a book about racists, sexists, and homophobes rather than a book about the oppressed people of the period and that just sounds like the wrong focus to me for this particular book, though it might be a good focus for a different book designed to highlight the human monsters of the 1920s as an enemies book for pulp heroes, either for standard SotC or New Horizons.  In fact, "Human Monsters" would probably be a pretty good title for such a book including the Klan, Hitler and Stalin in the 1920s, eugenicists, and so on as enemies in need of a good butt-kicking.

I like this.  A book of villian groups, focusing in part on what makes them evil and more importantly, why some of their goals are supported by society at large.  That's the way to do it

Quote from: jhkimOK, so as far as I can tell, your complaint is that if it includes X type of villains, then it "runs the risk" of being entirely about those villains.  I consider this a nonsensical complaint.  By this logic, including anything in the book "runs the risk" of the book somehow turning into nothing but that one thing.

As with many things, it's a matter of degree.  My point was that if the focus of the supplement is on the bad guys and their organizations, the focus will be less about helping the players create non-traditional characters and more about giving them something for their non-traditional characters to do.  That's not necessarily a bad thing but didn't seem to be where Bruce was trying to go with his write-up.

Quote from: jhkimSo, as far as what I would look for...

I'd like stuff which I can directly use for adventures in a pulp campaign.  My favorite pulp supplements are Aaron Allston's Lands of Mystery and the Daredevil Adventures series for Daredevils.  So those form a good basis.  I'd want a few sample heroes -- but more of supporting characters, villains, and locations.  To my mind, the difficulty of bringing diverse characters into pulp is that characters don't spring to mind as easily as the archetypes of the original pulps.  So having a bunch of related NPCs, organizations, and locations is good.  I think Brannon Boren and Patrick E. Bradley's Normals Unbound for Champions was a great example of developing a very usable set of interlinked supporting cast.

Fair enough.  At that point, would it be a book that's more supportive of GMs or players?

Quote from: jhkimI could see a few pages discussing the basics of discrimination and civil rights at the time.  However, I wouldn't be looking for anything more than that.  If I want to learn real-world history, I generally turn to non-RPG sources.  Having pulp characters inspired by history is fine, as long as they are suited for actual use in adventures.

I agree that turning to non-RPG sources is often a good solution, but there are many role-players who seem to prefer their history be condensed with role-playing in mind to make it easier to digest.

Quote from: jhkimAnd I do think that the nature of adventures changes.  Good pulp adventures are not simply brainless violence with any old villain shoved in.  For example, an adventure fighting a Stalinist villain (or Stalin himself) can be very different if done by a bunch of communists as compared to by a bunch of American nationalists.

So you think the best approach would be to provide a full package that includes example characters and organizations from the non-traditional group, a brief historical write-up of their place in the period, some locations associated with that non-traditional group, and then some bad guy organizations and individuals and how it might all fit together.  So it would be a book that players could use to help them create characters and thata GM can use to help run adventures.  Would that be a fair summary of what you'd like?

Quote from: John MorrowFair enough.  At that point, would it be a book that's more supportive of GMs or players?

Quote from: John MorrowSo you think the best approach would be to provide a full package that includes example characters and organizations from the non-traditional group, a brief historical write-up of their place in the period, some locations associated with that non-traditional group, and then some bad guy organizations and individuals and how it might all fit together.  So it would be a book that players could use to help them create characters and thata GM can use to help run adventures.  Would that be a fair summary of what you'd like?

I'm not claiming that there is an objective "best" approach -- I was expressing what I would be interested in.  

That is a fair summary.  I would look for a book more for GMs than players(i.e. more of a campaign book than a splatbook).  However, I expect that players could use it for inspiration for their PCs, to pick out enemies and allies for their PC, etc.

Quote from: JimBobOzI do think they could have found people of more diverse backgrounds than they did.

Well, considering that Bruce is the one who conceived and pitched the book to Evil Hat, that would essentially have amounted to Fred and Rob saying, "Hey, Bruce, that's a great idea for a book you just had.  Now go away while we find someone else to write it."