Would you buy an RPG with no art?
Yes, mostly.
However, an RPG that was so simple that it needed no illustrations to make sense of the rules would be unlikely to appeal to me. Those illustrations could be rather crude as long as they clearly got the point across, clarifying the text.
Furthermore, there needs to be something to break up the walls of text. In some games, that could be rendering some of the details in charts, to break up the flow. Most games, are almost going to need a least a smattering of art in a few places where nothing else will really work to that purpose. I suppose trade paperback size with lots of margins serves a similar purpose, though I seldom like that format either.
I guess I can summarize that art per se is not that important to me, but layout is. It's difficult for most games to have a good layout with no art.
Yes if the content, layout and editing is good enough. At this point in my life I can picture fantasy, sci-fi, historical, etc. art.
I don't really need to see generic warrior fighting monster or animals.
Perhaps if it has some theme that I am very interested in, but mostly no. I'm quite visually oriented in many ways. In many cases I feel I can come up with a decent system and setting myself, but good art is a big inspiration. Over time, I have come to recognize the importance of this (to me at least) so I'm thinking more about using art from some favorite RPG/fantasy artists as a springboard for a new campaign.
I'd be fine with that as a free minimalist ruleset (like < 8 pages) or a small supplement tackling one specific aspect of a game (like adding basic hexploration mechanics to a game that is missing them) but not really as a full fledged retail product that I'm expected to pay for.
No art, probably not.
Public Domain art is easy enough to find and free. Even if I've seen the same public domain art in a dozen products it doesn't bother me.
I mean the WhiteHack has no art and I think that RPG is quite good. likewise Maze Rats.
so yes I own and have purchased RPGs with no art before.
Yeah I would. Art is useful for quickly communicating the tone of the game but that's about it. Game art in a rule book is fun to look at but doesn't contribute that much.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2025, 07:48:07 AMWould you buy an RPG with no art?
Yea, maybe. It's gotta be a really notable RPG to make up for the lack of art.
There should at least be a few token pieces of art, even if only a few black ink sketches. Some type of illustration on the front cover, too.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2025, 07:48:07 AMWould you buy an RPG with no art?
No. If a game has no art it should just be a free download.
Definitely.
Think of Knave and Maze Rats, for example. Huge bestsellers.
Personally I dislike the layout of Mork Borg and could only appreciate it when the released a simpler version with no art.
Then again, anyone can buy at least some stock art for the cover to show you're making SOME effort.
Yes, it is was a good game.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 10, 2025, 01:09:39 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2025, 07:48:07 AMWould you buy an RPG with no art?
No. If a game has no art it should just be a free download.
Why? As you should still be paying for their intellectual property.
Better one with no art, than one with bad art.
I bought the Traveller boxed set back in 1982. Not one illustration. So, yes. I would buy a game with no art andI have.
But nowadays I would need to see what I am getting before any money drops.
As others have mentioned. Assuming good layout, formatting, and editing (Poor editing is a big detractor for me. Looking at you Mongoose), yes.
Maybe.
If you had a 15 page book with no art and were charging a couple of bucks for the effort, I could get on board with that.
If you removed all the art from the 5E player's handbook and squashed it down to... however many pages it ends up being, then no I don't think I would.
I don't know where the inflection point is.
Also, if you make too big a deal about human art, I'm not giving you any money. Checking the hand-crafted box on DTRPG, or having a little blurb about made by human hands is fine. Once I start getting activist vibes, I'm done.
I'm wondering if this question marks a divide between those who buy an RPG to read it for fun and those that actually intend to play it.
Also, AI art is a big negative. I'd probably pass on a book for that reason alone. No art is definitely superior to AI art.
Heres a big secret. Interior art doesnt sell a book.
Personally I do prefer there be at least some example art of at least the races if theres more than just humans. Gear and vehicle art are also nice to have but not a must.
SPI's Universe RPG has almost no art at all in it for example.
Many older gurps books were low on art. This was a bit of a irk for books like the Lensman, and others were knowing what these things look like would have been nice as a few gurps books barely even describe them on top of that.
Some TSR books were very art lite as well. Greyhawk and Mystara come to mind right off. But theres plenty more.
Quote from: Kiero on April 10, 2025, 01:45:20 PMBetter one with no art, than one with bad art.
i disagree. I love the bad art in older games. There's also art that aren't bad, but amateurish. A lot of smaller DIY games had art by people who had some skills, but lacked the discipline to make something that looks professional. There's an oldschool charm to that kind of art, in my opinion.
I'm more tolerant of "bad" art in older games as it was the standard for better or worse. You might only know one mediocre artist as an indie game creator in the 80s willing to work on your project so you were stuck with whatever you got. Nowadays with the internet and instant free worldwide communication, that's not really the case.
On rare occasion.
Art is essentially mandatory to spark imagination properly. This is not to say you need a ton of it, but you very rarely want the amount to be zero.
Quote from: RNGm on April 10, 2025, 05:24:59 PMI'm more tolerant of "bad" art in older games as it was the standard for better or worse. You might only know one mediocre artist as an indie game creator in the 80s willing to work on your project so you were stuck with whatever you got. Nowadays with the internet and instant free worldwide communication, that's not really the case.
Also, bad art is relative. There are some talented 8-year olds with crayons that can produce better art than I. If you were stuck picking between the two options, you'd take the talented kid every time. Even with 8-year old produced crayon art.
I bring this up because one of my top three favorite games, Pocket Fantasy, doesn't really have art.
It does use stock art for each class, but that's it. It really isn't a book, but rather a couple pages you can print yourself.
If this tariff situation plays out like some think, we may see downloadable RPGs get more popular. I would think being able to just print out a simple text game like Pocket Fantasy, Maze Rats, Cairn, or even True-D6 is a good choice. Hell, True D6 has two versions. The original is quite literally a text file (True-D6 Printable Edition is fully fleshed out with fantasy AI generated art, but is the same rules).
I am buying a rule not an art book. I would pay extra for no useless filler, and the art budget or resources diverted to something that I do value. Info graphics are a different beast, but I am not in the market for anything crunchy enough to benefit from them.
Conversely, setting books do benefit from some art over pages of exposition and critter manuals are better with critter illustrations.
Quote from: Kiero on April 10, 2025, 01:45:20 PMBetter one with no art, than one with bad art.
haha, I say the same about women.
yeah but YES. I have tons of great hex and counter rulesets with no art.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 10, 2025, 07:52:52 PMI bring this up because one of my top three favorite games, Pocket Fantasy, doesn't really have art.
It does use stock art for each class, but that's it. It really isn't a book, but rather a couple pages you can print yourself.
If this tariff situation plays out like some think, we may see downloadable RPGs get more popular. I would think being able to just print out a simple text game like Pocket Fantasy, Maze Rats, Cairn, or even True-D6 is a good choice. Hell, True D6 has two versions. The original is quite literally a text file (True-D6 Printable Edition is fully fleshed out with fantasy AI generated art, but is the same rules).
That sounds like a minimalist system and I'm a relative fan of them as well (though I'm not particularly familiar with Pocket Fantasy other than downloading it and looking at it a while back). I'd be fine with that especially given it's free.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 10, 2025, 07:26:46 PMAlso, bad art is relative. There are some talented 8-year olds with crayons that can produce better art than I. If you were stuck picking between the two options, you'd take the talented kid every time. Even with 8-year old produced crayon art.
Very true (and that theoretical kid would probably beat me in an art contest as well!).
I've bought games and supplements with no or minimal art, such as the generic Tri-Stat rulebooks and the Hero System Advanced Player's Guides.
Based on that, my rule of thumb is that the more generic and mechanical a product is, the less it needs art, while good art can be a very good tool for conveying setting, mood, and style.
Yes, I would consider it. Like someone said upthread, I'd prefer no art than bad art.
Naw. It's not that I can't enjoy a page of text, but when it comes to rules I prefer some artwork.
Quote from: Trond on April 10, 2025, 09:01:00 AMPerhaps if it has some theme that I am very interested in, but mostly no. I'm quite visually oriented in many ways. In many cases I feel I can come up with a decent system and setting myself, but good art is a big inspiration. Over time, I have come to recognize the importance of this (to me at least) so I'm thinking more about using art from some favorite RPG/fantasy artists as a springboard for a new campaign.
I tend to put art in my own stuff. Downloaded pics of monsters and adventurers and whatnot to spruce up my notes.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 10, 2025, 07:26:46 PMThere are some talented 8-year olds with crayons that can produce better art than I.
What's their rate and email??
Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 10, 2025, 04:52:06 PMi disagree. I love the bad art in older games. There's also art that aren't bad, but amateurish. A lot of smaller DIY games had art by people who had some skills, but lacked the discipline to make something that looks professional. There's an oldschool charm to that kind of art, in my opinion.
I'm not willing to pay a premium for ugly crap filling pages unnecessarily. There's no "charm" for me in that. I'd rather have plain text.
Frankly a decent index is more important than artwork.
Quote from: RNGm on April 10, 2025, 08:49:25 PMThat sounds like a minimalist system and I'm a relative fan of them as well (though I'm not particularly familiar with Pocket Fantasy other than downloading it and looking at it a while back). I'd be fine with that especially given it's free.
Pocket Fantasy is much better when you get the optional classes expansion that takes it from the classic 4 up to a total of 14 classes.
I like to use PF as an example of a minimalistic RPG, yet has all the features a full RPG needs. Therefore it's a full RPG, with one quirk being it's a fairly flat progression curve.
I used it in this thread as an RPG without art, which isn't really true. Each class uses a single public domain/stock image. Hell, recently the author created a fancier version with proper art, layout, and more images.
Rules lite games often ditch art to keep the size down, or cost, or both. I've only seen a few with page counts into the hundreds that don't use art, and even then it will still have a cover artwork.
I've read a good number of RPG books and I can say that a good 60% of them would have been better with less art. The best ones I've read have very little art.
I might buy it if I knew the author's work, or I'd heard good things from those whose opinions I trust. Otherwise, probably not.
While I appreciate the people that would buy an RPG with no art at all... I suspect most RPG's with no art would be massively hampered in sales potential.
Assuming there is no art, would mean some intensely good writing, design and layout to overcome the lack of art, just for appeal. And that means it has to cater to a pretty rarified number of GM's that would be willing to plow through the text and be inspired enough by the tone and design of the system within the text to warrant the purchase.
Then comes the marketing etc... again with no art... is a hard sell for the masses.
I suspect that this concept would work (from a time/money perspective) mostly with established systems and/or mini-settings with lite mechanics.
Another interesting option would be: Would you opt-in for a cheaper version of an RPG with art, if you could get it without art from a crowdfunded campaign?
Quote from: tenbones on April 11, 2025, 01:43:48 PMWhile I appreciate the people that would buy an RPG with no art at all... I suspect most RPG's with no art would be massively hampered in sales potential.
Assuming there is no art, would mean some intensely good writing, design and layout to overcome the lack of art, just for appeal. And that means it has to cater to a pretty rarified number of GM's that would be willing to plow through the text and be inspired enough by the tone and design of the system within the text to warrant the purchase.
Then comes the marketing etc... again with no art... is a hard sell for the masses.
I suspect that this concept would work (from a time/money perspective) mostly with established systems and/or mini-settings with lite mechanics.
Another interesting option would be: Would you opt-in for a cheaper version of an RPG with art, if you could get it without art from a crowdfunded campaign?
I think a few carefully selected and used art pieces go a long way to helping a product sell itself. It's nice to see a cover piece or a intro picture that helps me see what the game designers are going for.
I have seen a lot of products that have really bad art design, generic slop, or art that sets a different tone from what the game is going for. I think in the end that this hurts more than it helps. I would rather see a rather stark product than a product with art that doesn't work.
Some games almost require art to be a complete game. I know that Palladium's Rifts game would probably not work without art.
However, most fantasy RPGs can probably get away with no art. Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a free version without art, and that's fine by me. I've seen the version with art, and I actually prefer the version without pictures due to how bizarre and graphic those pictures were.
Quote from: grimshwiz on April 10, 2025, 08:29:54 AMYes if the content, layout and editing is good enough. At this point in my life I can picture fantasy, sci-fi, historical, etc. art.
I don't really need to see generic warrior fighting monster or animals.
Agreed. These days I just want a book that is easy to read. Layout is so damned important.
I just bought the $10 reprint of the original Traveller. Maybe a few pictures in the whole corebook but it's really a neat system.
Quote from: Kiero on April 10, 2025, 01:45:20 PMBetter one with no art, than one with bad art.
So true!!!
I would buy for sure a game book without visual art.
Yes, I've bought older games like Classic Traveller with basically no art. No art beats bad art.
Nobilis 1ed had no art as I recall, and 2ed had less than 10 (maybe 5 total?) full page spreads across 300+ pages. While the game itself is kind of "meh", the layout was minimalistically clean and the margins were full of entertaining little bits of "nano fiction".
I've also seen books that use things like border art and fonts and the like to set apart sections and help break up the flow. I think the Sins RPG does this well, replacing lots of art with different colored fonts and boxed paragraphs and the like to help break up giant walls of text. (Looking back, there is art in Sins, but I honestly remembered the layout presentation more.)
I think I could only buy an rpg book with no art, if it was cheap. And by cheap, I mean under 15 or 20 dollars. I'd probably only buy something like this to get a "budget version" of a game.
Quote from: Kiero on April 10, 2025, 01:45:20 PMBetter one with no art, than one with bad art.
My thoughts exactly. No art is better than bad art.
Also, I don't know if this is true of anyone else, but I have a much higher tolerance for bad line-art, especially if it's hand-drawn, than I do for full color art. A lot of the pen-and-ink art in the AD&D books is lousy, for example, but I vastly prefer it to the modern stuff that looks like it was made in Photoshop or colored with Crayola markers.
It's easy to say you'd buy an established setting that had no art back in the day.
But consider the proposition today as a CREATOR.
I *do* agree no art is better than bad art. Can testify, I've turned my back from games based purely on shit art. And I'm a whale. If I like a game - I go *all* in (with the caveat that I'll buy into line providing I know I'll use it.) If you put it in bad art that completely kills the vibe I'm assuming from the text. I'm OUT.
But as a creator - today, how niche are games with relatively no art, and how much sell-through are you attempting to achieve? If it's for hobby-purposes, fine. If you want to make a business out of it... well that's /rimshot dicey. It can definitely happen, but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. The question is whether or not your choice of art (or lack thereof) is worth more words for the quality of art.
Personally I think no art vs. some art is a easy choice. Some art is always better with the provision that it's not *bad art*. No art? Man... Even Chainmail and the those old Palladium fantasy pamphlet books had art...
As a consumer - there is far less risk involved. It's the extrapolation of the purchasing habits of your base your aiming your game at that matters. If I produced a game for OSR players, I'd probably have a much better chance with less/no art than if it were some game that was wholly original and non-OSR.
The question of the OP I'm assuming relates to profit viability.
I certainly would get a game without art.
This makes me wonder about A-B-C testing though.
Like.. take the same game, good editing/formatting/etc.
One version without art, one version with stock art, one version with art that is similar to AD&D1e, and one version with good art that is like... frank frazetta or other similar style art.
I wonder which versions would do better compared to each-other, but its also hard to test this, like.. optimally you'd need similar populations that only have one version available and see if they purchase it. Though of course you could just have all four versions available to the same general population and see which does better.