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Forge Games- Having it both ways

Started by gleichman, August 31, 2007, 10:52:41 AM

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Erik Boielle

#465
September 05, 2007, 07:06:28 AM
Quote from: GrimGentWho has even attempted to claim that?"

Well, Vinnie himself for one. Fifth-Child for another.

QuoteHere in the cold light of day? I feel proud of the fiction we made. It was challenging and good. I feel good that we trusted each other and I feel super-good that we were all up to it. We could have freaked someone's shit out, but we didn't.

My feelings haven't changed, except that I feel more reserved about sharing the game now. I talked more publically about it the next morning than I have since. It's hard to convey the right "we did fucked up things, but no, it was good. We weren't fucking around."

See? They werent fucking around. This was srs bzns, not fat guys making dick jokes.
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

J Arcane

#466
September 05, 2007, 07:07:14 AM
Quote from: JimLotFPIt is still complete fiction. There is no actual raping or killing going on. There is no actual murder victim or rape victim here.
The point is, it's PEOPLE thinking this shit up.  None of this nebulous "it's what my character would do", method acting crap.  In fact that line doesn't even hold water if we're being true to Forge dogma, since of course, immersionism is the devil.  

And apparently these PEOPLE like sitting around and fantasizing about brutal rape and dismemberment and corpse mutilation.

If this was anything but the Forge, we'd've likely already gotten the posts from individuals asking whether we should contact the police out of concern they may've already acted on such sickitude, like has happened with the FATAL guys or mythusmage.
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The Yann Waters

#467
September 05, 2007, 07:14:38 AM
Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, Vinnie himself for one. Fifth-Child for another.
But that's not the same thing at all: where's the pretension? All that quote says that the group had a successful and emotionally charged session about something that they would be hard put to communicate to others.
Previously known by the name of "GrimGent".

Erik Boielle

#468
September 05, 2007, 07:24:08 AM
Quote from: GrimGentwhere's the pretension?

QuoteWhat Im getting out of it is a moving story with emotional content that we as a group can explore.

QuotePoison'd for us became an excercise in collecting Xes in preparation for fights, against a backdrop of horrible, wicked pirates. And it was a blast! We laughed and shuddered at the horrible things our pirates did (which ranged from forced amputations to rape and good old fashioned violence), we were right there, right now in the fight scenes, cheering each other on, making each other laugh and having an awesome time the whole evening.

Same guy talking about the same thing dude...

Sure dude. Moving story with emotional content. suuuuuuuurrrrrrrrreeeeeee.......
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

signoftheserpent

#469
September 05, 2007, 07:24:09 AM
Back in the day (and soon again I hope) i played Vampire. I even had the Sabbat books (which were pretty close to the knuckle for the time, though I never ran a Sabbat game).

It was never about this.

In fact I don't recall ever having to make or call for a Humanity roll!

Nowadays it's all about being fucked in the head!
 

The Yann Waters

#470
September 05, 2007, 07:27:48 AM
Quote from: Erik BoielleSame guy talking about the same thing dude...
Getting "a moving story with emotional content" out of your sessions is pretentious now? That covers an awful lot more ground than the Forge or all of indie/small-press/wha'ever gaming.
Previously known by the name of "GrimGent".

Erik Boielle

#471
September 05, 2007, 07:30:54 AM
Quote from: GrimGentGetting "a moving story with emotional content" out of your sessions is pretentious now?

Well, saying you are getting moving stories with emotional content while infact sitting around laughing about raping the cabin boy with his own severed penis probably is.
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

The Yann Waters

#472
September 05, 2007, 07:35:16 AM
Quote from: signoftheserpentIn fact I don't recall ever having to make or call for a Humanity roll!
You characters never planned to kill someone? Or if they had high Humanity scores, they never stole anything or wrecked property?
Previously known by the name of "GrimGent".

The Yann Waters

#473
September 05, 2007, 07:38:05 AM
Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, saying you are getting moving stories with emotional content while infact sitting around laughing about raping the cabin boy with his own severed penis probably is.
Not really, no. The "emotional content" evoked by that scene may be disturbing in itself, but that doesn't make it pretentious.
Previously known by the name of "GrimGent".

RobNJ

#474
September 05, 2007, 07:39:04 AM
Quote from: HaffrungOkay, so why do you think that two of the first groups who have played Poison'd, including the designer's own group, have used the game as a stage to perform savage sexual psycho-dramas?

I actually posted about this on the RPG.net thread:

Quote from: meYou know, I have a theory about the prevalence of rape in the APs we've seen. I think it's got to do, in a lot of cases, with how upsetting the people playing find the notion of rape.

When I play Dogs in the Vineyard my character choices, town designs, and play tend to focus on the religious extremist features of the game: a world where religious conservatives are undeniably "right," one where sexism and homophobia are condoned by a god whose presence is undeniable in the world (depending on where you set the dials).

I am an atheist, queer-positive feminist.

For me, it is precisely focusing on these elements of the world which are so antithetical to what I believe to be good and right in the real world that makes the stories produced by playing a game of Dogs in the Vineyard a gut-wrenching, cathartic tragedy.

I'm guessing this sort of thing is why people I like and respect--like Vincent and Julia--play games with vicious rapes and feel closer to one another as a result.

I now return the internet to its regularly scheduled fear and loathing.
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Erik Boielle

#475
September 05, 2007, 07:42:28 AM
Quote from: GrimGentNot really, no. The "emotional content" evoked by that scene may be disturbing in itself, but that doesn't make it pretentious.

Look, could you give an example of where you think someone would be pretentious. I seriously don't see how someone making dick jokes and then telling everyone they were making high art would not be pretentious.

Thats what it means isn't it?

1 : characterized by pretension : as a : making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) b : expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature

Am I using it wrong?
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

walkerp

#476
September 05, 2007, 07:42:53 AM
So now we get J Arcane and Koltar arguing that system does matter?  You guys are tripping all over yourselves in your righteous fury so much that you are starting to contradict your own theoretical positions.

At least you have a consistently theoretical position, Kyle Aaron, even if your moralizing is based on what you've decided is right and wrong and you can't separate representation from reality.
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Haffrung

#477
September 05, 2007, 07:44:35 AM
Quote from: GrimGent(Oh, and another little niggling detail which seems to get lost here: it's not only something that PCs are capable of committing like any other characters, but also something that they can suffer.)

Quite right - the game encourages sadistic and masochistic play. Getting your thrills from role-playing being raped is every bit as seedy, pretentious, and fucked up as getting your thrills from pretending to rape.
 

The Yann Waters

#478
September 05, 2007, 07:50:49 AM
Quote from: Erik BoielleI seriously don't see how someone making dick jokes and then telling everyone they were making high art would not be pretentious.
The problem is that in this case there's no claim to "high art": art, perhaps, since that can be liberally applied to all creative endeavours, but no one here or over there is declaring that it's particularly high. Gathering together to tell an emotionally effective story, even if the emotions involved are unsettling, even if the twists of the tale are grotesque? That is art by definition. Saying so isn't pretentious.
Previously known by the name of "GrimGent".

Erik Boielle

#479
September 05, 2007, 08:00:27 AM
Quote from: GrimGentThe problem is that in this case there's no claim to "high art":

Well, I'd argue that claming being able to get a moving story with emotional content out of a bloody roleplaying game is claiming high art. Claiming high art while actually making knob gags is pretention.

Claiming to make knob gags, and then making knob gags would not be pretentious.
Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.
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