Wow. It's like I've stepped back into the 19th century.

So, tell us some more about the evil poor.  Maybe a little social Darwinism and white man's burden too.

Quote from: Elliot WilenHowever, there's a bit of a problem with how some people (e.g., KenHR here) are identifying literary story as the goal of the "thematic play" of "narrativist games". Certainly in Forgist terms, that's wrong: it's not the story, but the moment-to-moment opportunity to make "moral statements" that they're after. On the other hand, I think one could make the case that "moral statements" really don't carry any weight outside of a narrative--that is, without the nonmechanical framework & constraints of plot, continuity, and suspension of disbelief (including coherent characterization), the "moral statement" of decapitating a cabin boy is no more than gratuitous vulgarity..

I tend to side with the "other hand" here (and with KenHR), and generally feel that the Forge focus on "moral statements" is a matter of focusing on method as opposed to the real goal. After all, they didn't name their leading website "Moral Statements"- they named it Story Games.

Quote from: Elliot WilenUnder this aesthetic, the mechanical rules are basically just expressions of areas where the group does not wish to rely purely on human input/judgment. (E.g., rolling a die to see if you find a secret door, because there are limits to the ability of the GM to describe the room, limits to the ability of the player to realistically control the character's action, etc.)

Again, the Make Believe or "freeform" interaction of (1) and (2) was the original heart of hobby RPGs, and--of course--its presence means that "thematic play" is always possible...with the right group of people, right attitude, etc.

A concept that I attempted to explain some years back with my article on Layers (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/elements11dec02.html). The Forge rejects all this, seeing only the Game Layer or at best Near-Game.

They remind me of a child with a hammer swatting ants, completely unaware that it could be used to build cathedrals.

Sounds like fun to me....SOLD!

Wow. The Forgies must be getting really desperate for attention.

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichmanI tend to side with the "other hand" here

I do, too. Malcolm Sheppard had a blog post a while back called something like "Food First, Morals Follow Later", where he makes a similar point. [Edit: Malcolm's hidden or deleted much of his livejournal, so only the original post, without the comments, is viewable over at shootingdice here.]

QuoteA concept that I attempted to explain some years back with my article on Layers (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/elements11dec02.html). The Forge rejects all this, seeing only the Game Layer or at best Near-Game.

At least the most radical (often the newly-converted) Narrativists do. Not all--though, should I name them? Or would they then risk being seen as "giving ground to the enemy" and then either lose cred in their community, or start self-censoring?

I remain highly amused at the unsophisticated Puritanism displayed here and elsewhere. Like it or not, it is the 21st century. At least Pierce does some philosophical justification to back up his squeamishness.

Quote from: droogI remain highly amused at the unsophisticated Puritanism displayed here and elsewhere. Like it or not, it is the 21st century. At least Pierce does some philosophical justification to back up his squeamishness.

Oh I'm not squeamish, baby. Renegade pastor Baker is. He can't face meaninglessness. He needs to call it the devil.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityOh I'm not squeamish, baby. Renegade pastor Baker is. He can't face meaninglessness. He needs to call it the devil.

As I've said to you before--it's everywhere. You should watch more TV.

I thought your points were more about aesthetics than morality, but I didn't want to get into some big thing about the relationship.

Just to point out the obvious here, there is a world of difference between competitive playing and fucking people over. Its really hard to justify playing a game that encourages the fucking over since players usually don't like to be fucked over. Even on a one-shot lark, because you'd hope your players would have enough common decency to feel unsatisfied and dirty afterwards. But hey, the ones who enjoy shit like this would also enjoy FATAL and d20 Blood and Faith.

Paranoia doesn't come into the equation, its a parody game designed for humor. I see no humorous intent with Poison'd besides the author laughing at those who defend his crap.

You've got to draw the line somewhere on what is in good taste and what isn't. This is just another place where I draw my line and say that I find the game in poor taste and don't think that it would survive on the open market. If that means that having personal standards leaves me labeled as morally righteous, then so be it.

I'm personally really sick of obvious lowest common denominator sensationalism masquerading as good game design in order to virally market an odious piece of crap as a game.

Quote from: walkerpWell now that's a whole nother argument.  I wasn't naming any particular names, I just saw a lot of "that's sick" comments.  Pointless moralizing, in my opinion.

"Moralizing" isn't always pointless.

Sometimes something good comes out of it.

...but yeah, that scene described in the actual play example IS sick.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat was that point you were making about GTA again?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityNo, what it does is deflect the real horror of violence by making it an excuse for syrupy soul-searching. As in: "Gee whiz, I sure feel deep fucking that throat. Ain't I a conflicted, twenty-first century angsty middle-class snowflake (with a dash of nineteenth-century Christianity for added weirdness)."

What GTA does is deflect the real horror of violence by making it an excuse for brutal machismo,  As in: "Damn, I sure feel bad ass punking that bitch.  Ain't I a hardcore, ain't I G'd up. (with a dash of Capitalism for added flavor.)"

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAs somebody called it in that Holocaust RPG thread we had: emo tourism, masquerading as profundity.

Somebody didn't call it, I assume, but they should have: hood tourism, masquerading as street cred

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYou want the real thing, don't chicken out, dare go there. Read American Psycho. Read Dispatches. Check out that TV interview with the Iceman. Watch the odd documentary on atrocities. Those things are nearly unbearable. Poison'd fails not because it's brutal but because it's not brutal enough.

Do I really need to go on?  Watch the news, listen to the radio, head to any reasonably sized metropolitan area.  These things are unbearable.  Soon GTA will seem benign, as video games continue to get more and more brutal.

So is it a little more clear now?

droog, you missed my point, sorry.

Quote from: Pierce Inveraritydroog, you missed my point, sorry.

I don't think so.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityNo, what it does is deflect the real horror of violence by making it an excuse for syrupy soul-searching. As in: "Gee whiz, I sure feel deep fucking that throat. Ain't I a conflicted, twenty-first century angsty middle-class snowflake (with a dash of nineteenth-century Christianity for added weirdness)."

As somebody called it in that Holocaust RPG thread we had: emo tourism, masquerading as profundity.

You want the real thing, don't chicken out, dare go there. Read American Psycho. Read Dispatches. Check out that TV interview with the Iceman. Watch the odd documentary on atrocities. Those things are nearly unbearable. Poison'd fails not because it's brutal but because it's not brutal enough.

What was that point you were making about GTA again?

Excellent post Pierce, I think you're correct.

It's sophomoric philosophy, to use an Americanism, philosophy-lite, phatic philosophy.

American Psycho, Dispatches, Brighton Rock, The Talented Mr Ripley (the book and not the sequels to it either), Clockwork Orange, these are books which deal with atrocities and terrible crimes in a genuinely adult fashion.  They contain horror and are horrific, but challenge us also by making it human.

By contrast, challenging Forge stuff is basically 14 year olds showing how edgy they are.  It's pampered rich folk playing at experiencing the world's underbelly, it's disaster tourism (which sadly now really exists, people pay to go on guided tours of warzones to see what's happening on the ground, how sick is that?).  This is the gaming equivalent.

The only Forge game I've seen produce actual plays that if converted into another medium I would think anything other than formulaic shite is Primetime Adventures, which contains no mechanics forcing this kind of crap at all.

Incidentally, I saw My Life with Master get mentioned above, it's half-rpg half boardgame and is actually a lot of fun.  I wouldn't put it at all in the same camp, if you like gothic horror and feel like a light hearted couple of hours recreating the genre it works pretty well.  I don't know if it's quite an rpg, but it is a fun game and it doesn't merit being in this particular company.

Movements are big things, even narrow minded movements like this one, Paul Czege produces quality stuff regardless of what the folk he hangs out with produce, and I still personally think PTA is a brilliant piece of game design.

Oh and Droog, I'm Scottish, of course I'm a fucking puritan

So in this Poison'd game, the conflicts are mostly player vs. player?  The guy who was neck-fucked was a PC not an NPC?