Quote from: J ArcaneI take it you haven't had much of a life since discovering the Internet then?

Heh, touche.  It's true that there's a lot of baseless judgments being made pretty much everywhere, pretty much all the time.  Most of the subjects involved have no personal connection to me, though, so I don't really care.  But I come back to RPGnet after four days or so without internet (remodeling the house) and find this already-massive thread about this game, Poison'd.  I remember reading a preview of it and thinking it sounded interesting, plus the claims some people are making seem a little outlandish.  So I start digging up some information: actual plays, mechanical snippets, stuff like that.  And I post to RPGnet to the effect of, "You know, it's probably not as bad as some of you are asserting."  But after a while I'm getting frustrated, because you know what?  I don't really know that it isn't that bad, because I haven't read it either.  And I'm totally just adding to the chorus of people who are assuming things about the game without having even read it.  So I pony up and buy the pdf.  And hey!  I kinda like it.  So there you go.

Quote from: mythusmageI never thought I'd say this, but I agree, J Arcane. It's one thing to say you'd do something, another to actually do it. Any dog is as brave as brave can be when there is a fence between you and he. But remove that fence and watch as he shrinks before your eyes.

What compels people to defend something vile lest it be ignorance and/or obstinancy? Or is it a need for a perverted justification? A reactive defense against attack.

This thread really has nothing to do with Poison'd now, it's about how people dealt with an in game situation, and how people have reacted to the relating of that incident. People have said that what the participants did as their characters was wrong, and the participants are having a tizzy about it. How dare we judge them? Because what they did, as their characters, was rotten and vile and thoroughly fucked up.

And what gives us the right to judge these others? We did. For any society that does not establish and enforce standards of behavior will die. You do not murder, you do not covet, you do not lie. For when neighbor cannot trust neighbor it all deteriorates into chaos and insanity. Can we trust anyone who would defend murder, mutilation, and necrophilia, even imaginary murder, mutilation, and necrophilia.

You'll know who this is intended for, "Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin." Translation: You're in deep shit, dude. I'd hate to be the guy standing behind you when you die and finally stand before God.

You're drunk, right?  I'm cool with that.

Quote from: SigmundYes it is. Perhaps before you try to insult someone by telling them they don't know what they're talking about you should make at least a minimal effort to know more about them first. As to your answers, I don't have time tonight to read your whole post, but I appreciate the response and I'll get to reading and responding tomorrow.

I didn't feel like I was insulting anyone.  There's no such thing as perfect knowledge.  I have been known to make the occasional error myself - Consonant Dude has been immortalizing one of my more egregious textual ones in his sig for, what, like a year now?  He's free to continue doing so - it's not like he's lying.  (I'm assuming from the "Dude" in "Consonant Dude" that you're a guy.  Apologies if I'm wrong.)

No rush.  Just because I'm feeling under the weather after inhaling vast amounts of polyurethane and spending most of my time at my computer desk doesn't mean that other people don't have more important matters to attend to.

Mythusmage, for the record I don't consider myself Christian, but I appreciate your concern for the state of my immortal soul.

Whether you're Christian or not - everyone has a soul or spirit.
Even Ayn Rand and Madelyn Murray O'hare had souls.


- Ed C.

Quote from: fifth_childMythusmage... the things you're saying are significantly more insulting to me than any name-calling might be.  I know you probably don't care, because you think I'm THE ENEMY and therefore sub-human, but I'll ask you politely to stop, on the off-chance that you might listen.

I've never used a weapon on a living thing, no, but there was one time in my life where it was distinctly possible that if things went badly, I might have ended up shooting at and being shot at by other human beings.  I am immensely grateful that it never came to that, and I have no idea why you'd wish otherwise on anyone.

When you show understanding, then I will cease. You have yet to show understanding.

I too have been in situations where I nearly killed someone. I have gotten angry enough to take a human life with my bare hands. I didn't. I understand.

But you let the distancing inherent in an RPG warp your perceptions. You forgot that for all the boy was imaginary, and his death was imaginary, and his decapitation was imaginary, and the abuse of his body was imaginary, it all happened to a person. All he is to you is a toy to be used, and then discarded when his usefullness is done. No thought to how this sort of treatment would play in the real world.

I once lived in a household that adopted a severely abused dog. She was terrified of everything. She slept under this table in the living room. She ate under this table, she shit under this table. It was six months before she would come out from under that table, and she couldn't stand to be left alone. I understand what abuse does. That family member of yours? How well do you know her? How well do you understand?

Quote from: fifth_childMythusmage, for the record I don't consider myself Christian, but I appreciate your concern for the state of my immortal soul.

I really, really, really can't tell you how disturbed and disgusted I am at this moment that a child molestor is presuming to pass any judgements on another's soul.

EDIT:  I don't mean you.  I'd advise you IL mythusmage, he's really a sick fucker and not worth your time.

Quote from: KoltarWhether you're Christian or not - everyone has a soul or spirit.
Even Ayn Rand and Madelyn Murray O'hare had souls.


- Ed C.

I stay further from Ayn Rand than I would from hazardous waste.  Objectivism is not something I identify with.

And while it's true that the vast majority of religious or spiritual beliefs do have some concept of the soul or spirit, many of them don't believe in judgment in anything approaching the same sense as the Christian faiths.

Quote from: walkerpYou're drunk, right?  I'm cool with that.

And you're a jerk. Tomorrow I'll be sober, but you'll still be a jerk.

Quote from: walkerpI would say there is inconsisten application of "System Matters" on both sides of this debate.  Baker himself said that it did.

I agree that it's been misread by both, but I think Baker is wrong. Like I said, no game designer likes to think that they're the least important part of what ends up happening at the game table.

Quote from: walkerpThe second part is where my argument is.  If the group is comfortable with playing evil, then I have no problem with it.  It might not be my cup of tea, but then I won't play with them.  

I'm with you up to there. I'd just add in some scorn to disavow any connection with people like that. I'm a person who's reasonably active in recruiting people into gaming. That sort of shit really does not help.

Quote from: walkerpI also wonder how many people here might have changed their tune had the system been D&D (and I guarantee you there are some groups doing just as sick shit as this with non-indie systems).

I don't think the system makes much difference, except in that had it been FATAL or D&D the rpg.net thread would have been locked very quickly and a few people banned. My own reaction would have been no different. Sick shit is sick shit.

Quote from: walkerpMaybe Baker and crew are trying to show the opposite thing, an in-game extreme abuse is an example of profound player trust and cooperation.

Well, we can speculate as to their "true" motives, but Vincent Baker's already told us that he came up with Poison'd because he wanted to see Keira Knightly raped. That's the sort of story he's interested in having in his game sessions.

No thanks.

Quote from: fifth_childIt's trivially easy for me to prove what my career field was and where I was stationed, Kyle.

I don't doubt it your personal experience, I simply say that your personal experience is irrelevant, and playing that as a card just leads to endless one-upmanship and even less productive discussion.

If you roleplay your character molesting the corpse of a murdered child, you yourself may have been raped, you may actually be a rapist, you may be a support worker for sex workers who've suffered sexual assault, you may be a nun who's lived in a nice safe nunnery all your life, you may be a hardened soldier who's never done anything like that but has seen it, or you may just be a balding cheetos-bellied gamer dork in black t-shirt and jeans chortling to himself - it doesn't matter. It's still sick shit.

Your personal experience is irrelevant to whether or not this is sick shit or whether or not it belongs in a roleplaying game session, or whether it not it has any bearing on "System Matters." Nor does mythusmage's personal experiences, or mine, or anyone else's. It just doesn't matter.

All that matters in relation to the topics of this thread is your roleplaying game experiences. Let's stick to those.

Quote from: mythusmageAnd you're a jerk. Tomorrow I'll be sober, but you'll still be a jerk.

 Good paraphrase of Churchill - nicely done.

Quote from: J ArcaneI am a shallow, nasty person incapable of learning from my errors and correcting them. So I find it impossible to admit others are capable of learnirng from their errors and correcting them.

Fixed it for you.

Quote from: J ArcaneI really, really, really can't tell you how disturbed and disgusted I am at this moment that a child molestor is presuming to pass any judgements on another's soul.

Um, am I to take this post to mean that mythusmage is a convicted child molester?  Because that's not an accusation to toss around lightly.

Mythusmage, the woman who was raped when she was prepubescent is an immediate family member of mine.  I cannot count the hours I've spent over the last twelve years talking to her, comforting her, or simply holding her.  It happened to her that long ago, and it still impacts her life to this day.  Being around victims of serious trauma teaches you a compassion you can't learn anywhere else.  However, this is all rather personal and off-topic, so I'm thinking perhaps we should drop the matter.

Furthermore, I don't think you're qualified, nor that there's enough evidence extant, for you to make the assertions you're making about the state of my perceptions, nor do I agree with your classification of an imaginary character in a rpg as a person.  I'd really appreciate it if you'd drop the matter, as I'm simply not willing to pursue it any further.

Kyle, you're free to keep making reductionist statements like "it's still sick shit," but I'm just going to keep on disagreeing with you.

I don't agree that personal experience is completely irrelevant, either, but it's true that it's tangentially related at best.  Sorry for getting sidetracked.

I'm not really willing to argue theory with you in any depth at the moment.  I know that you don't buy any of it anyway, and this talk about Poison'd is more than enough for me.  Maybe some other time.

Quote from: fifth_childFurthermore, I don't think you're qualified, nor that there's enough evidence extant, for you to make the assertions you're making about the state of my perceptions, nor do I agree with your classification of an imaginary character in a rpg as a person.  I'd really appreciate it if you'd drop the matter, as I'm simply not willing to pursue it any further.

You wish to take the subjects of the two paragraphs I clipped to PM, I will respond.

On your perceptions: All I'm going by is what you've said. If you want me to have true perceptions, say what you mean. If you disagree with what occurred in that game, say so. If you disagree with what the players said and did post game, say so. Some things are just indefensible.