QuoteDitV should have, that is didn't is somewhat telling in itself.

I find it utterly repugnant, but even here I seem to be alone in this matter.

I guess, I am done with that discussion on rpg.net

It is very clear that any critique however serious and logical is not wellcome there. The game must stay clean and bright even if it is dirty to the top with rape and slaughter. Well, anyone who wants to play it probably deserves whatever outcome it will bring to him.

I never tought I would feel so dirty after talking to deaf ears of people fascinated with this moral sludge. :flush:

Quote from: J ArcaneI find it utterly repugnant, but even here I seem to be alone in this matter.

Certainly, I'd be slightly dissapointed if it turns out that DitV was just a grubby excuse for sado-porn and any subtlety and neuance read in by the reader (and if the dude heads off in to Adult Only top shelf material I'm gonna get suspicious).

(Why am I reminded about comments about never meeting your heros...)

I guess it could be both, but, er, somehow thats not as classy.

It's the sex, isn't it.  There is less of a potential for it in a game about mormon's, no matter how over the top it is.

Quote from: Erik BoielleCertainly, I'd be slightly dissapointed if it turns out that DitV was just a grubby excuse for sado-porn and any subtlety and neuance read in by the reader (and if the dude heads off in to Adult Only top shelf material I'm gonna get suspicious).

(Why am I reminded about comments about never meeting your heros...)

Baker's post indicated that basically everything (as in subject matter) that happened in the poison'd campaign had occurred in DitV, stated almost like it was a prep game for the deeper and more 'meaningful' results of his latest creation.

Quote from: BakerIt wasn't that I'd never played a game with rape in it before. Far from it - I've run towns in Dogs in the Vineyard that would curl your hair. It wasn't that I'd never played a game where a player character committed rape onscreen, not that either. Running kill puppies for satan all those times means that I've gotten pretty jaded about what PCs will do.

I got a kick out of this comment:

QuoteRunning kill puppies for satan all those times means that I've gotten pretty jaded about what PCs will do.

I've gotten pretty jaded... Well, porn has that effect on people who feel compelled to 'bravely' push the boundaries. What's next - Fisting the RPG?

... about what PCs will do. As though PCs act of their own volition.

No, PCs do what their players make them do. Your PCs didn't decide to rape children and wallow in visceral brutality - you and your players decided to take the role of psychopaths and describe them doing those things. Bravely done, sir.

It's time we started letting people knock child-rearing experts on their ass.

And over in the rpg.net thread, the "art" argument is trotted out again. manydipresso tells us about a rape scene in the film The Accused, and then says, if it's okay in film, why not in an rpg?

The difference is simple. In The Accused, the rapists are villains, and the audience is invited to sympathise with the rape victim. In Poison'd, the rapists are the protagonists, and the audience - the game group - is invited to sympathise with the rapists.

That's the difference.

If there were an rpg where the characters were the rape victims, it would certainly be disturbing, just as the non-rpg They All Had Names is disturbing. But it wouldn't be... well, perverted.

What it comes down to is that rape is something bad guys do, and the player-characters in a roleplaying game are supposed to be good guys. The "bad" and "good" may not be entirely black and white, there may be all sorts of mixing of stuff and moral dilemmas and so on. But basically the PCs are good guys and NPCs do the raping, and are bad guys.

Quote from: fifth_child, on rpg.netLook. We can't fruitfully phrase this discussion in terms of morality, because different people have different moralities.

Ah, moral relativism... that whiff you're smelling is the fresh smell of sloppy bullshit. "Well, you feel that rape is wrong, but everyone has their own morality."

Quote from: Temple, on rpg.netPoison'd is not a game about rape. It is a game where you can choose to rape, and that choice has consequences. Thats a meaningful exploration of moral issues.

Okay, I'll explore that moral issue:
   Should I rape?
No.

Well, that was a profound and memorable experience.

Quote from: Kyle AaronOkay, I'll explore that moral issue:
   Should I rape?
No.

Well, that was a profound and memorable experience.

:tears:

QuoteFrankly, I don't think the Pundit's crowd could like anything remotely related to the Forge or RPGnet any less no matter what I did, anyway.

You'd be surprised. Good god man, your blind inability to accept any hint that possibly something connected with the forge is even slightly sub-optimal is infuriating.

If Vicent Baker shat on your head you'd thank him and ask for more, you goddam mongoose. Learn to think for your bloody self. Have an opinion of your own for bloody once.

Goddam humorless git.

Quote from: Kyle AaronIf there were an rpg where the characters were the rape victims, it would certainly be disturbing, just as the non-rpg They All Had Names is disturbing. But it wouldn't be... well, perverted.

So...

Everyone shows up at Baker's house so they see in what creative ways they can be raped that night? I sense a degree of perversion in that.

Folks trotting out the "art" argument still aren't doing a good job showing where the art is in either AP (the one on RPGnet or the one at the Forge).  No one has shown that they were exploring any idea or effectively (key word) challenging preconceptions, how it was able to affect their (or anyone else's) viewpoint, etc.  They were just exulting in the shockiness (which is fine, I guess, not my bag, but who am I to say?).

Kyle's got it right on the moral relativism argument, too.  Hell, you're even taught in day one of Sociology not to fall prey to it.

Aesthetes they most certainly are not.  They should just drop that line.

Quote from: Kyle AaronWhat it comes down to is that rape is something bad guys do, and the player-characters in a roleplaying game are supposed to be good guys.

They are?  I guess I missed that rule.  I'm glad that you've decided to tell everyone else how we should play.  Man, the double-standards.  You guys are just as bad as your "enemies".

Quote from: Kyle Aaronthe player-characters in a roleplaying game are supposed to be good guys. The "bad" and "good" may not be entirely black and white, there may be all sorts of mixing of stuff and moral dilemmas and so on. But basically the PCs are good guys and NPCs do the raping, and are bad guys.

Who sez? Mickey Mouse?

Quote from: droogWho sez? Mickey Mouse?

pwned!  :haw: